Working Online

[Delphis]

Okay, I'm confused.

I understand that any work requires a work permit. But I'd like to reverse the usual sense of the question. I suspect it to be realistic that there are a great many expats living in Thailand earning at least *some* extra money for online activities. For the sake of argument, as it is what I am interested in, let's talk about having ebooks available via Amazon.

Under what "structure" are expats in Thailand doing this? Under what structure can anyone recommend it be done?

Specifically:

1) Are there expats on retirement visas doing this? If so, what is theire real-world risk level for this?

2) Let's say someone is on a work visa for teaching? Obviously this has nothing to do with teaching. But if they were doing this kind of activity in addition, again what is their risk level?

3) Is there a truly legitimate way to do this?

[eldragon]

I imagine it comes down to who's paying you. I'm not aware that a work permit is necessary for foreign income one receives while residing in Thailand.

[simon43]

Mods, can you save bandwidth and close this thread?

These types of questions have been answered a thousand times already - the OP should do a simple Google/search for the answers

[Delphis]

Mods, can you save bandwidth and close this thread?

These types of questions have been answered a thousand times already - the OP should do a simple Google/search for the answers

Can the mods do me a favor and *not* close the thread, as I've already searched the relevant threads here, and while their content is interesting, it led to more confusion than clarity. This is why I expressed it in my own words. When someone is considering moving to Thailand they seek advice on complicated matters, which I understand this forum to be for. Your kind of rudeness is not useful. Please keep it to yourself.

[CiaranO]

Mods, can you save bandwidth and close this thread?

These types of questions have been answered a thousand times already - the OP should do a simple Google/search for the answers

Can the mods do me a favor and *not* close the thread, as I've already searched the relevant threads here, and while their content is interesting, it led to more confusion than clarity. This is why I expressed it in my own words. When someone is considering moving to Thailand they seek advice on complicated matters, which I understand this forum to be for. Your kind of rudeness is not useful. Please keep it to yourself.

Firstly you are 16 posts in and you have already harassed a senior TV member - well done.

I have sold a number of ebooks online via Amazon however the money is never repatriated into Thailand and is kept in my home country account for holidays and visits and things like that.

In truth their is no risk. You are working of your computer and honestly many ebook authors dont even use their real names on published books.

In relation to doing it legit - you would need an office - employing 4 Thais with fully paid up taxes etc.

[Delphis]

Mods, can you save bandwidth and close this thread?

These types of questions have been answered a thousand times already - the OP should do a simple Google/search for the answers

Can the mods do me a favor and *not* close the thread, as I've already searched the relevant threads here, and while their content is interesting, it led to more confusion than clarity. This is why I expressed it in my own words. When someone is considering moving to Thailand they seek advice on complicated matters, which I understand this forum to be for. Your kind of rudeness is not useful. Please keep it to yourself.

Firstly you are 16 posts in and you have already harassed a senior TV member - well done.

I have sold a number of ebooks online via Amazon however the money is never repatriated into Thailand and is kept in my home country account for holidays and visits and things like that.

In truth their is no risk. You are working of your computer and honestly many ebook authors dont even use their real names on published books.

In relation to doing it legit - you would need an office - employing 4 Thais with fully paid up taxes etc.

Sorry about that. But when someone kicks off with rudeness, I think the "harrassment" is on their part, not mine.

Anyway, CiaranO, yours was a lucid reply and I thank you for it.

[JLCrab]

Just to note that the topic heading is "Working Online" -- not that I am in Thailand and I do no work when I am in Thailand. On a tourist visa one declares in writing that you are not engaging in an occupation or profession. A retirement extension stamp often (but not always) says work not permitted.

[Delphis]

To me, this whole area seems to raise another issue. My understanding of the real word practicalities of the situation are something like this:

1) There are many people earning money online in Thailand, but "under the radar" etc.

2) To be fully legitimate would need Thai company formed.

Fair enough.

But it seems to me this is a grey area legally. Countries can of course do what they like in terms of laws, but...

It seems to me iffy that a country can have, or set itself up as having, a legal right to control economic activity that in fact does not take place on their economic territory at all, except as tapped at an ATM. That in *itself* seems to me borderline illegal...or at the very least, as I put it, "grey area."

[jpinx]

To me, this whole area seems to raise another issue. My understanding of the real word practicalities of the situation are something like this:

1) There are many people earning money online in Thailand, but "under the radar" etc.

2) To be fully legitimate would need Thai company formed.

Fair enough.

But it seems to me this is a grey area legally. Countries can of course do what they like in terms of laws, but...

It seems to me iffy that a country can have, or set itself up as having, a legal right to control economic activity that in fact does not take place on their economic territory at all, except as tapped at an ATM. That in *itself* seems to me borderline illegal...or at the very least, as I put it, "grey area."

----------

Any country can and will make up it's own laws, there is no requirement for any international standard. Controlling economic activity is what many laws are for, in order that the country maximises it's GDP and tax income. If you want to live in a country then you must abide by their laws. As a visitor you are "allowed" to stay by virtue of some of the laws which work to your advantage. If you wish to take part in certain activities you must abide by the laws that govern them. You can not "cherry-pick" the laws to suit yourself

[AYJAYDEE]

To me, this whole area seems to raise another issue. My understanding of the real word practicalities of the situation are something like this:

1) There are many people earning money online in Thailand, but "under the radar" etc.

2) To be fully legitimate would need Thai company formed.

Fair enough.

But it seems to me this is a grey area legally. Countries can of course do what they like in terms of laws, but...

It seems to me iffy that a country can have, or set itself up as having, a legal right to control economic activity that in fact does not take place on their economic territory at all, except as tapped at an ATM. That in *itself* seems to me borderline illegal...or at the very least, as I put it, "grey area."

its not a grey area at all. you came in here asking a question. you got your answer and now you want to argue about it! tell you what, email a thai embassy in your home country and ask them.

[Delphis]

----------

Any country can and will make up it's own laws, there is no requirement for any international standard. Controlling economic activity is what many laws are for, in order that the country maximises it's GDP and tax income. If you want to live in a country then you must abide by their laws. As a visitor you are "allowed" to stay by virtue of some of the laws which work to your advantage. If you wish to take part in certain activities you must abide by the laws that govern them. You can not "cherry-pick" the laws to suit yourself

You are right of course (as I acknowledged). Any country can make any law it wants. A country can pass a law tomorrow that allows any non-nationals to be seized and put in prison indefinitely as "assets" (hostages) for international trade. Thus do wars start...

However, the online working issue seems a mess, not just in Thailand. It doesn't even have to be online work to illustrate the wrong thinking about this. Consider the following scenario. You are the managing director of a coconut business based in South America. You sell exclusively to Australia. You send an email or make a phone call to your manager in South America saying "hold back on oval coconuts this month...sell only round ones" thus making a profit for your company. You do this in Thailand and yet this is illegal because it is "work'...despite the fact that none of this economic activity actually passes through the system and that the only net consequence for Thailand is that you are bringing more money into the country at the ATM to spend on Thai stuff. Do you see the problem? This is completely and utterly FUBARed, as they say!

Note: this example is purely hypothetical. I do not own a coconut business or any such business and I am not engaged in such activity.

[AYJAYDEE]

----------

Any country can and will make up it's own laws, there is no requirement for any international standard. Controlling economic activity is what many laws are for, in order that the country maximises it's GDP and tax income. If you want to live in a country then you must abide by their laws. As a visitor you are "allowed" to stay by virtue of some of the laws which work to your advantage. If you wish to take part in certain activities you must abide by the laws that govern them. You can not "cherry-pick" the laws to suit yourself

You are right of course (as I acknowledged). Any country can make any law it wants. A country can pass a law tomorrow that allows any non-nationals to be seized and put in prison indefinitely as "assets" (hostages) for international trade. Thus do wars start...

However, the online working issue seems a mess, not just in Thailand. It doesn't even have to be online work to illustrate the wrong thinking about this. Consider the following scenario. You are the managing director of a coconut business based in South America. You sell exclusively to Australia. You send an email or make a phone call to your manager in South America saying "hold back on oval coconuts this month...sell only round ones" thus making a profit for your company. You do this in Thailand and yet this is illegal because it is "work'...despite the fact that none of this economic activity actually passes through the system and that the only net consequence for Thailand is that you are bringing more money into the country at the ATM to spend on Thai stuff. Do you see the problem? This is completely and utterly FUBARed, as they say!

Note: this example is purely hypothetical. I do not own a coconut business or any such business and I am not engaged in such activity.

did you start this thread to obtain information or just as another excuse to complain about thailand?

[Delphis]

its not a grey area at all. you came in here asking a question. you got your answer and now you want to argue about it! tell you what, email a thai embassy in your home country and ask them.

Laws in reality are rarely perfect and have many grey areas. I'm not sure I really got a consistent answer...which is the issue with the other threads too.

[AYJAYDEE]

its not a grey area at all. you came in here asking a question. you got your answer and now you want to argue about it! tell you what, email a thai embassy in your home country and ask them.

Laws in reality are rarely perfect and have many grey areas. I'm not sure I really got a consistent answer...which is the issue with the other threads too.

and your arguing about it is going to change that how?

[Delphis]

and your arguing about it is going to change that how?

I don't think that raising awareness of an issue is necessarily a bad thing. However, I started the thread asking what people recommend for this scenario. The answers seem to be irredcibly various...not that I'm saying that's a fault of the posters.

It really does seem that the system is rooted in a pre-internet version of world business, circa 1990/

[jpinx]

This has been regugitated umpteen times - Mods please close this thread.

[AYJAYDEE]

and your arguing about it is going to change that how?

I don't think that raising awareness of an issue is necessarily a bad thing. However, I started the thread asking what people recommend for this scenario. The answers seem to be irredcibly various...not that I'm saying that's a fault of the posters.

It really does seem that the system is rooted in a pre-internet version of world business, circa 1990/

so what? why are you telling us what hundreds of others have already said in dozens of threads ?

Edited August 18, 2014 by AYJAYDEE

[larsjohnsson]

It's simple: if you work online like your headline say. Then you need a WP.

The same questions about online work & WP are asked every week here

[JLCrab]

and your arguing about it is going to change that how?

I don't think that raising awareness of an issue is necessarily a bad thing. However, I started the thread asking what people recommend for this scenario. The answers seem to be irredcibly various...not that I'm saying that's a fault of the posters.

It really does seem that the system is rooted in a pre-internet version of world business, circa 1990/

One might consider the Thai government's attitude to the lone-wolf online worker to be one of benign neglect: They want to be able to tell the large scale IT-related investors -- who will also hire many Thai university graduates -- that while they do not aggressively discourage such behavior, they also do not encourage or provide any incentives for it.

[Jasun]

It's not illegal to earn money when residing in Thailand. For certain classes of non-working visa's, having an income is required by law.

[Delphis]

One might consider the Thai government's attitude to the lone-wolf online worker to be one of benign neglect: They want to be able to tell the large scale IT-related investors -- who will also hire many Thai university graduates -- that while they do not aggressively discourage such behavior, they also do not encourage or provide any incentives for it.

I think this is one reason why, even on a forum like this, rational voices should exist for this to be legal. I probably agree with you that the general attitude is one of "benign neglect" because someone, somewhere already recognizes that prohibiting this kind of activity is kind of silly...the net resul of it is to bring money into Thailand, which helps Thai people as well as the expat.

[Delphis]

It's not illegal to earn money when residing in Thailand. For certain classes of non-working visa's, having an income is required by law.

Right. But unless I'm mistaken, *formally speaking* that refers to money from investments, trust funds etc. My point being that there is essentially no practical difference between this and working online.

[AYJAYDEE]

One might consider the Thai government's attitude to the lone-wolf online worker to be one of benign neglect: They want to be able to tell the large scale IT-related investors -- who will also hire many Thai university graduates -- that while they do not aggressively discourage such behavior, they also do not encourage or provide any incentives for it.

I think this is one reason why, even on a forum like this, rational voices should exist for this to be legal. I probably agree with you that the general attitude is one of "benign neglect" because someone, somewhere already recognizes that prohibiting this kind of activity is kind of silly...the net resul of it is to bring money into Thailand, which helps Thai people as well as the expat.

as I suspected, just another thai bashing post dressed up as a question.

[ttthailand]

Based on some of the posts i have read here I would guess that if you make any calls or even think about making money you are breaking the law. Not that it could not happen but I have never heard of anyone getting busted for working online in their own apartment or condo. I have also never heard of anyone getting busted for owning a few rentals and collecting or receiving rent each month. Nor have I heard of anyone ever getting busted for making a few overseas calls to advise their overseas companies or investments how to proceed.

This is all a gray area. If you are however taking a job away from a Thai then you are breaking the law but if you are only looking after your investments then I think you should be fine. ???

How many people come here and sit on a beach and write a book or even think about what to write about while on holiday .... Are they breaking the law ? I don't think so ....

[Delphis]

as I suspected, just another thai bashing post dressed up as a question.

I'm not bashing Thailand at all. I wouldn't want to live there if I were bashing it. That doesn't make its legal system without flaws. This is an issue that potentially affects MANY people...both people already there, and people contemplating going.

[MrWorldwide]

I really think we need a 'hornets nest' icon. Dozens of queries in the Finance section re how to day trade etc but this is a subject that consistently brings out the self-proclaimed protectors of Thailand's Taxation and Labor departments. The only tip I can give anyone contemplating this is to tell no-one - not the people who share your bed and definitely not the readership of this board - it will only end in tears. If anyone has the audacity to ask you how you survive in Thailand, tell them you get a pension each month - that's it. Not a single cost-of-living or who-earns-what thread on this board has ever gone well IME, but to suggest that some folk might be doing it from the comfort of a laptop in a coffee shop or wherever really brings the angry ants out of the woodwork.

[AYJAYDEE]

I'm not bashing Thailand at all. I wouldn't want to live there if I were bashing it. That doesn't make its legal system without flaws. This is an issue that potentially affects MANY people...both people already there, and people contemplating going.

and its been covered here dozens of times already as you well know because you read them. and now you have started another one disguised as a question just so you can make the same arguments so many have made before you.

[JLCrab]

One might consider the Thai government's attitude to the lone-wolf online worker to be one of benign neglect: They want to be able to tell the large scale IT-related investors -- who will also hire many Thai university graduates -- that while they do not aggressively discourage such behavior, they also do not encourage or provide any incentives for it.

I think this is one reason why, even on a forum like this, rational voices should exist for this to be legal. I probably agree with you that the general attitude is one of "benign neglect" because someone, somewhere already recognizes that prohibiting this kind of activity is kind of silly...the net resul of it is to bring money into Thailand, which helps Thai people as well as the expat.

The sum total of monies brought in by persons working online under the radar is likely a pittances compared with the big investors and job providers and whatever the contribution of the former, the Thai officialdom will do nothing that might tend to discourage the latter.

[Delphis]

and its been covered here dozens of times already as you well know because you read them. and now you have started another one disguised as a question just so you can make the same arguments so many have made before you.

I'd be obliged if you don't read into my motives things that you choose to put there. If you aren't interested in this thread, please go and comment someplace else.

[AYJAYDEE]

and its been covered here dozens of times already as you well know because you read them. and now you have started another one disguised as a question just so you can make the same arguments so many have made before you.

I'd be obliged if you don't read into my motives things that you choose to put there. If you aren't interested in this thread, please go and comment someplace else.

Just had to confirm my suspicions is all. carry on sniping, I'm sure I've seen all your arguments here innumerable times.