Prayuth to be voted PM 'on 21 August,' legislators say

[sjaak327]

Interesting that the subject line uses the words "Prayuth" and "Voted" in the same sentence. Recent events have shown the two words to be contradictions.

In any case, what difference does it make who the PM is? Mere window dressing, or a veneer of decency. The dodgy new constitution ensures that the NCPO (Prayuth) get the final say no matter what.

'dodgy'?

May I remind you that the interim constitution is the law of the land, with H.M. the King graciously pleased to proclaim it?

I think dodgy sums it up correctly.

http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/24/thailand-interim-constitution-provides-sweeping-powers

According to the Human Rights Watch, there are many areas of concern with the new constitution. While "transparency" is the buzzword of the new regime, the reality is somewhat different:

“Instead of paving the way for a return to democratic, civilian rule, the Thai junta has granted itself unchecked authority to do almost anything it wants, including committing rights abuses with impunity.”

and concludes with:

“The NCPO’s claims that the interim constitution is essential for restoring electoral democracy and civilian rule in Thailand are a façade for continuing control by the junta,” Adams said. “By tightening their control, the generals are backtracking on their repeated promises to restore democracy in Thailand. This is a charter for dictatorship.”

So, what would you like as interim constitution? How much time should be spent on an interim constitution? Will you accept if the NCPO takes a year to get an interim constitution together after which the NLA and NRC/CDC can get started?

Do you simple want the 'old' constitution with all the politicians again? Well, that has been ruled out. They had their chance and made a mess of it.

We'll have the CDC to either improve the 2007 constitution (even Publicus said it was faulty, based on the faulty 1997 version), or write a completely new one. Unlikely, I expect a lot to be the same, but with major safeguards to ensure peoples freedom and self-entitlement and some extras to make politicians and government more clearly accountable.

Not to mention some safeguards into ensuring continued influence of the generals and their friends. It wouldn't surprise me if they pull the appointed senate trick onto the lower house as well, can't have the electorate to decide who should run Thailand now can we ?

Funny you should say the politicians had their chance and blew it, considering the militairy devised the stage back in 2006/2007. And who exactly has the right to rule anything out. Based upon the last real constitution, all of this is <deleted>.

[metisdead]

Off topic posts and replies have been removed, this is not about Egypt or Morsi.

[brucec64]

Interesting that the subject line uses the words "Prayuth" and "Voted" in the same sentence. Recent events have shown the two words to be contradictions.

In any case, what difference does it make who the PM is? Mere window dressing, or a veneer of decency. The dodgy new constitution ensures that the NCPO (Prayuth) get the final say no matter what.

'dodgy'?

May I remind you that the interim constitution is the law of the land, with H.M. the King graciously pleased to proclaim it?

I think dodgy sums it up correctly.

http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/24/thailand-interim-constitution-provides-sweeping-powers

According to the Human Rights Watch, there are many areas of concern with the new constitution. While "transparency" is the buzzword of the new regime, the reality is somewhat different:

“Instead of paving the way for a return to democratic, civilian rule, the Thai junta has granted itself unchecked authority to do almost anything it wants, including committing rights abuses with impunity.”

and concludes with:

“The NCPO’s claims that the interim constitution is essential for restoring electoral democracy and civilian rule in Thailand are a façade for continuing control by the junta,” Adams said. “By tightening their control, the generals are backtracking on their repeated promises to restore democracy in Thailand. This is a charter for dictatorship.”

So, what would you like as interim constitution? How much time should be spent on an interim constitution? Will you accept if the NCPO takes a year to get an interim constitution together after which the NLA and NRC/CDC can get started?

Do you simple want the 'old' constitution with all the politicians again? Well, that has been ruled out. They had their chance and made a mess of it.

We'll have the CDC to either improve the 2007 constitution (even Publicus said it was faulty, based on the faulty 1997 version), or write a completely new one. Unlikely, I expect a lot to be the same, but with major safeguards to ensure peoples freedom and self-entitlement and some extras to make politicians and government more clearly accountable.

I'm not certain as to how the timeframe it took to write the interim constitution entered into the discussion, nor were any points made for returning to previous constitutions.

My observation was that the Section 44 basically invalidates the rest of the constitution because of the unlimited power it gives with absolutely no legal recourse.

Would you sign a contract that laid out terms in specific detail, but then gave the other party the ability to go back on any terms of the contract, for any reason, with no recourse on your side? I would call a contract like that dodgy. This is the contract that has been imposed on the Thai people.

[tlock]

...

Many of the young soldiers are conscripts from Isaan.

I find this a little confusing myself. I tried starting a topic about why western nations don't have coups, and this is what I was getting at. If the general's in the west told the troops to overthrow the government I'm pretty sure they would simply refuse.

I think there is a line where blind obedience stops in the west related to independent thinking. It appears that the thai education system places a far greater emphasis on doing what you're told, to the point that these watermelon troops help overthrow the government their mothers and fathers elected.

[rubl]

So, what would you like as interim constitution? How much time should be spent on an interim constitution? Will you accept if the NCPO takes a year to get an interim constitution together after which the NLA and NRC/CDC can get started?

Do you simple want the 'old' constitution with all the politicians again? Well, that has been ruled out. They had their chance and made a mess of it.

We'll have the CDC to either improve the 2007 constitution (even Publicus said it was faulty, based on the faulty 1997 version), or write a completely new one. Unlikely, I expect a lot to be the same, but with major safeguards to ensure peoples freedom and self-entitlement and some extras to make politicians and government more clearly accountable.

I'm not certain as to how the timeframe it took to write the interim constitution entered into the discussion, nor were any points made for returning to previous constitutions.

My observation was that the Section 44 basically invalidates the rest of the constitution because of the unlimited power it gives with absolutely no legal recourse.

Would you sign a contract that laid out terms in specific detail, but then gave the other party the ability to go back on any terms of the contract, for any reason, with no recourse on your side? I would call a contract like that dodgy. This is the contract that has been imposed on the Thai people.

Under the assumption that reforms are necessary and that the NCPO should not stay on longer than absolutely necessary for the NRC and CDC to do their work on reforms and constitution respectively (and hopefully with help rather than the obstruction displayed here by foreign specialists), this interim constitution is not a contract with the people, just a way to ensure peace while others go on with the work to be done.

[Thanet]

Don't you love the quoted section 19 of the interim constitution Rubl ?

I like the buz words and marketing talk. Especially the "strengthen unification and harmonization of Thai people"

Unfortunately the subjects being unified and harmonized have absolutely no say in the matter.

Good observation.

The marketing talk assumes that repression and reconciliation are the same thing.

Old soldiers probably think that they are. Why would they know any differently?

Well I am a youngish "old soldier" and I don't think that peace, harmony and reconciliation can be achieved with a magazine of 20 rounds. Been tried umpteen times all over the world and never works,never.

What you can do with your guns is make the population do what they are told. But you can't make them think what they are told. Sooner or later, if you persist in controlling your people by threat of force enough of them will get pissed off, an then you risk being chased down the road by a gang of them waving machetes!

Old soldiers who think realise this.

My apologies for the over-generalisation. There are indeed some old soldiers who think intelligently. I come from an Air Force family myself.

The old soldiers in this country could never be accused of doing that, however, looking at their track record. As you quite correctly say, reconciliation has never been achieved under the barrel of a gun. The problem is forced underground, only to resurface with renewed ferocity later on.

History shows us endless examples of this, as you know.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Thanet

[Thanet]

So, what would you like as interim constitution? How much time should be spent on an interim constitution? Will you accept if the NCPO takes a year to get an interim constitution together after which the NLA and NRC/CDC can get started?

Do you simple want the 'old' constitution with all the politicians again? Well, that has been ruled out. They had their chance and made a mess of it.

We'll have the CDC to either improve the 2007 constitution (even Publicus said it was faulty, based on the faulty 1997 version), or write a completely new one. Unlikely, I expect a lot to be the same, but with major safeguards to ensure peoples freedom and self-entitlement and some extras to make politicians and government more clearly accountable.

I'm not certain as to how the timeframe it took to write the interim constitution entered into the discussion, nor were any points made for returning to previous constitutions.

My observation was that the Section 44 basically invalidates the rest of the constitution because of the unlimited power it gives with absolutely no legal recourse.

Would you sign a contract that laid out terms in specific detail, but then gave the other party the ability to go back on any terms of the contract, for any reason, with no recourse on your side? I would call a contract like that dodgy. This is the contract that has been imposed on the Thai people.

Under the assumption that reforms are necessary and that the NCPO should not stay on longer than absolutely necessary for the NRC and CDC to do their work on reforms and constitution respectively (and hopefully with help rather than the obstruction displayed here by foreign specialists), this interim constitution is not a contract with the people, just a way to ensure peace while others go on with the work to be done.

The interim constitution is not a contract at all. A contract requires agreement between than just one party. Anything else is a nothing more than a diktat, and can't be described as a contract in any sense of the word.

The interim constitution is merely a façade of legitimacy to placate gullible fools, behind which a military dictatorship sits, perhaps indefinitely.

[Thanet]

Good observation.

The marketing talk assumes that repression and reconciliation are the same thing.

Old soldiers probably think that they are. Why would they know any differently?

Well I am a youngish "old soldier" and I don't think that peace, harmony and reconciliation can be achieved with a magazine of 20 rounds. Been tried umpteen times all over the world and never works,never.

What you can do with your guns is make the population do what they are told. But you can't make them think what they are told. Sooner or later, if you persist in controlling your people by threat of force enough of them will get pissed off, an then you risk being chased down the road by a gang of them waving machetes!

Old soldiers who think realise this.

Isn't it terrible from morning to night we are threatened, with army, every otherday I am escorted to Tesco with a gun at my head. I need a pass to go out of my county, For Thai people they must be terrified.

Don't flatter yourself.

Why on earth would they bother with you? Nobody cares much about old foreign geezers living in the boonies. You are hardly a threat to national security, you agree with everything they say and do, and they can boot you out at a moment's notice by raising the bar on retirement visas at their whim.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Thanet

[96tehtarp]

Many of the young soldiers are conscripts from Isaan.

I find this a little confusing myself. I tried starting a topic about why western nations don't have coups, and this is what I was getting at. If the general's in the west told the troops to overthrow the government I'm pretty sure they would simply refuse.

I think there is a line where blind obedience stops in the west related to independent thinking. It appears that the thai education system places a far greater emphasis on doing what you're told, to the point that these watermelon troops help overthrow the government their mothers and fathers elected.

"I find this a little confusing myself. I tried starting a topic about why western nations don't have coups, and this is what I was getting at."

I missed that topic.

As long as the the Act governing martial law [Martial Law, B.E. 2457 (1914)], amended in 1942, 1944, 1959 and 1972, remains coups will continue to occur whenever a threat to national security or the institutions of the nation, (whether real or perceived), are present. All that is required to activate Martial law is the government of the day's inability to function effectively.

In this most recent case in Thailand the inability of the government to function effectively was orchestrated and coordinated to result in the coup. There has been much speculation who the financial backers behind the effort were.

In this coup the highest-ranking military officer took over as the military governor (NCPO head) and the OP confirms that he will shortly become the head of the government, effectively removing all power from the previous executive, legislative, and judicial branches of the previous government.

So far everything is going very nicely according to both schedule and plan.

"If the general's in the west told the troops to overthrow the government I'm pretty sure they would simply refuse."

They take an oath which effectively makes coups impossible:

I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State (Commonwealth, District, Territory) of ___ against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the Governor of the State (Commonwealth, District, Territory) of ___, that I make this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion, and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the Office of [grade] in the Army/Air National Guard of the State (Commonwealth, District, Territory) of ___ upon which I am about to enter, so help me God.

The above is the oath sworn by the U.S. national guard. Only the national guard is authorized to act domestically. The armed forces are prohibited from doing so by law. AFAIK.

" to the point that these watermelon troops help overthrow the government their mothers and fathers elected."

Their cultural upbringing predisposes them to do what they are told and obey authority. Notice the almost total absence of outrage over the coup. Very few people are outraged at what has happened. Those outraged are mostly a fringe intellectual element, leftovers of the CPT, and hard core red-shirt neophytes. The masses are told to be happy and they do it; They are happy.

The genius of the coup is that it was bloodless. If this coup had unfolded in a similar manner to the events of 14 October 1973 or Black May 1992 it would probably have crystallized public outrage and violent resistance to the coup. Thailand's almost total lack of an educated and broadly based political class further weaken any chance of wide spread outrage.

The icing on the cake for the General is the Head of State's endorsement of the NCPO and it's interim constitution. This makes everything right and proper.

Edited August 19, 2014 by 96tehtarp

[rubl]

Under the assumption that reforms are necessary and that the NCPO should not stay on longer than absolutely necessary for the NRC and CDC to do their work on reforms and constitution respectively (and hopefully with help rather than the obstruction displayed here by foreign specialists), this interim constitution is not a contract with the people, just a way to ensure peace while others go on with the work to be done.

The interim constitution is not a contract at all. A contract requires agreement between than just one party. Anything else is a nothing more than a diktat, and can't be described as a contract in any sense of the word.

The interim constitution is merely a façade of legitimacy to placate gullible fools, behind which a military dictatorship sits, perhaps indefinitely.

Well, I guess you'd rather have Thailand continue under the Martial Law only because that's easier for you to understand and explain.

Some other fool chap here suggested a while ago that the 2007 constitution was illegal and only withdrew that statement slightly as it would make anything done under it also illegal including Ms. Yingluck's PM period.

BTW I really like your last sentence. Reminds me of hardcore communist rants against all they saw as 'enemies of the people'.

[rubl]

Isn't it terrible from morning to night we are threatened, with army, every otherday I am escorted to Tesco with a gun at my head. I need a pass to go out of my county, For Thai people they must be terrified.

Don't flatter yourself.

Why on earth would they bother with you? Nobody cares much about old foreign geezers living in the boonies. You are hardly a threat to national security, you agree with everything they say and do, and they can boot you out at a moment's notice by raising the bar on retirement visas at their whim.

True, true. Or as some have mentioned before, wait till Thaksin gets back.

Anyway, the topic somehow is still about Gen. Prayuth to be appointed PM. Legally and so, without a foreign criminal fugitive ordering him around or even a golf caddy offering advise. No more 'skype-ins' from abroad, imagine.

[JAG]

...

Many of the young soldiers are conscripts from Isaan.

I find this a little confusing myself. I tried starting a topic about why western nations don't have coups, and this is what I was getting at. If the general's in the west told the troops to overthrow the government I'm pretty sure they would simply refuse.

I think there is a line where blind obedience stops in the west related to independent thinking. It appears that the thai education system places a far greater emphasis on doing what you're told, to the point that these watermelon troops help overthrow the government their mothers and fathers elected.

I would suggest that the skill in carrying out this coup lies in the threat of massive military force rather than its employment.

A relatively small proportion of the army can be relied upon to shoot at their own people. They were used in the 2010 shootings in Bangkok. The message that sent still resonates, and is what underpins the military government.

Enforcement at present relies upon a relatively small number of operators, often in plain clothes, backed up when required by uniformed troops from units recruited from " areas which can be relied upon". The watermelon soldiers remain in barracks.

[sjaak327]

Under the assumption that reforms are necessary and that the NCPO should not stay on longer than absolutely necessary for the NRC and CDC to do their work on reforms and constitution respectively (and hopefully with help rather than the obstruction displayed here by foreign specialists), this interim constitution is not a contract with the people, just a way to ensure peace while others go on with the work to be done.

The interim constitution is not a contract at all. A contract requires agreement between than just one party. Anything else is a nothing more than a diktat, and can't be described as a contract in any sense of the word.

The interim constitution is merely a façade of legitimacy to placate gullible fools, behind which a military dictatorship sits, perhaps indefinitely.

Well, I guess you'd rather have Thailand continue under the Martial Law only because that's easier for you to understand and explain.

Some other fool chap here suggested a while ago that the 2007 constitution was illegal and only withdrew that statement slightly as it would make anything done under it also illegal including Ms. Yingluck's PM period.

BTW I really like your last sentence. Reminds me of hardcore communist rants against all they saw as 'enemies of the people'.

I agree with that chap Rubl, the 1997 constitution was abolished and that act was justified retroactively. The first order of business should be to re-enact it.

Of course that would put a few people in a tight spot, and Yingluck isn't one of them.

By the way, the last sentence of Thanet has nothing to do with communists, it has everything to do with reality or calling a spade a spade. Thailand is currently governed by a military dictatorship.

I suspect the dear general might have taken a few lessons from the communist. He actually makes the chaps that run Lao PDR look like boy scouts.

Edited August 19, 2014 by sjaak327

[Maestro]

Removed two off-topic posts.

[tlock]

...

Their cultural upbringing predisposes them to do what they are told and obey authority. Notice the almost total absence of outrage over the coup. Very few people are outraged at what has happened. Those outraged are mostly a fringe intellectual element, leftovers of the CPT, and hard core red-shirt neophytes. The masses are told to be happy and they do it; They are happy.

...

Yeah, this really bothers me. I lived in Thailand for 7 years, and happened to be visiting the US for a month when the coup happened. I gave up my condo lease and have some people looking after my stuff, and am not planning on returning until the military dictatorship is over. I got pretty upset with my girlfriend because she didn't seem to have any opinion about things happening now, other than being annoyed at the traffic stops late at night. I realized she wasn't an intellectual when i met her, but the complete lack of an opinion about it left me pretty unimpressed.

[rubl]

I would suggest that the skill in carrying out this coup lies in the threat of massive military force rather than its employment.

A relatively small proportion of the army can be relied upon to shoot at their own people. They were used in the 2010 shootings in Bangkok. The message that sent still resonates, and is what underpins the military government.

Enforcement at present relies upon a relatively small number of operators, often in plain clothes, backed up when required by uniformed troops from units recruited from " areas which can be relied upon". The watermelon soldiers remain in barracks.

I would suggest differently. The skill in carrying out this coup lies in some preparations and the total ineptitude of the Yingluck government. A chaotic situation brought upon Thai by that Yingluck government (or probably by the criminal fugitive abroad) when they tried to force through that blanket amnesty bill which took care of corruption under Thaksin and even under little sis' first two years.

Anyway this week we'll have a PM again for the interim period till the new general elections late next year. Politicians sidelined, but foreign posters here still at it.

I may have missed it, but did any of the 'democracy loving, let's go back' posters offer meaningful advise how to proceed, how to reform?

[rubl]

The interim constitution is not a contract at all. A contract requires agreement between than just one party. Anything else is a nothing more than a diktat, and can't be described as a contract in any sense of the word.

The interim constitution is merely a façade of legitimacy to placate gullible fools, behind which a military dictatorship sits, perhaps indefinitely.

Well, I guess you'd rather have Thailand continue under the Martial Law only because that's easier for you to understand and explain.

Some other fool chap here suggested a while ago that the 2007 constitution was illegal and only withdrew that statement slightly as it would make anything done under it also illegal including Ms. Yingluck's PM period.

BTW I really like your last sentence. Reminds me of hardcore communist rants against all they saw as 'enemies of the people'.

I agree with that chap Rubl, the 1997 constitution was abolished and that act was justified retroactively. The first order of business should be to re-enact it.

Of course that would put a few people in a tight spot, and Yingluck isn't one of them.

By the way, the last sentence of Thanet has nothing to do with communists, it has everything to do with reality or calling a spade a spade. Thailand is currently governed by a military dictatorship.

I suspect the dear general might have taken a few lessons from the communist. He actually makes the chaps that run Lao PDR look like boy scouts.

The 1997 constitution was replaced by the 2007 version which had improvement and that article on amnesty for the coup leader. Now we have an interim constitution giving a sufficiently legal base to get through the coming year in which the PM and NLa can take care of the normal government day-to-day activities. In the mean time NRC and CDC can do their work with input from Thai of all social strata, education, regions.

So, back to the topic, a PM this week. Still trying to answer all replies, didn't have to time yet to look at "Thailand Live today", maybe we have a PM already

[fab4]

The 1997 constitution was replaced by the 2007 version which had improvement and that article on amnesty for the coup leader. Now we have an interim constitution giving a sufficiently legal base to get through the coming year in which the PM and NLa can take care of the normal government day-to-day activities. In the mean time NRC and CDC can do their work with input from Thai of all social strata, education, regions.

So, back to the topic, a PM this week. Still trying to answer all replies, didn't have to time yet to look at "Thailand Live today", maybe we have a PM already

Now we have an interim constitution giving a sufficiently legal base to get through the coming year in which the PM and NLa can take care of the normal government day-to-day activities.

You are funny, rubl, but keep up the good work. From another thread - what is blindingly obvious to the Thais seems to have completely passed you by

BANGKOK: -- Nobody expects the National Legislative Assembly (NLA) to be anymore than a rubber stamp in endorsing junta-guided laws and directives.

So, what really is the point of using the taxpayers' money to pay some 200 people to simply raise their hands and agree to all junta proposals?

Of the 197 members in the assembly, only 17 reserved their right to speak on the budget bill in the first reading on Monday - and none of the 17 hailed from the military.

As for the so-called debate, all the NLA members did was to praise or applaud the junta or express their gratitude to the paramount leader for choosing them to sit in this honourable post.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/753207-rubber-stamp-nla-could-be-waste-of-time-and-money-thai-politics/#entry8269707

I look forward to you apologising for supporting the junta on that thread...............

[rubl]

The 1997 constitution was replaced by the 2007 version which had improvement and that article on amnesty for the coup leader. Now we have an interim constitution giving a sufficiently legal base to get through the coming year in which the PM and NLa can take care of the normal government day-to-day activities. In the mean time NRC and CDC can do their work with input from Thai of all social strata, education, regions.

So, back to the topic, a PM this week. Still trying to answer all replies, didn't have to time yet to look at "Thailand Live today", maybe we have a PM already

Now we have an interim constitution giving a sufficiently legal base to get through the coming year in which the PM and NLa can take care of the normal government day-to-day activities.

You are funny, rubl, but keep up the good work. From another thread - what is blindingly obvious to the Thais seems to have completely passed you by

BANGKOK: -- Nobody expects the National Legislative Assembly (NLA) to be anymore than a rubber stamp in endorsing junta-guided laws and directives.

So, what really is the point of using the taxpayers' money to pay some 200 people to simply raise their hands and agree to all junta proposals?

Of the 197 members in the assembly, only 17 reserved their right to speak on the budget bill in the first reading on Monday - and none of the 17 hailed from the military.

As for the so-called debate, all the NLA members did was to praise or applaud the junta or express their gratitude to the paramount leader for choosing them to sit in this honourable post.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/753207-rubber-stamp-nla-could-be-waste-of-time-and-money-thai-politics/#entry8269707

I look forward to you apologising for supporting the junta on that thread...............

I do not expect the NLA do much in 'law making', more and keeping the country running through the coming year. Much more important is the work to be done by NRC and CDC.

BTW the NLA members indicated their approval of the measures taken by the NCPO till now and expressed their intention to work for the good of all Thai to the best of their abilities.

Think positive man, don't let politics as usual cloud your vision and thoughts

Edited August 20, 2014 by rubl