Killing A Gay Man: When Murder's Not Murder

[craftwork]

A gay Labour MP in New Zealand wants to do away with the outrageous defence of provocation in a so-called enlightened bill on homosexuality in that country.

Don't know how many other countries have passed defences such as this one, but one country is more than enough.

The defence enables men to kill gays and get away with a lesser manslaughter conviction, rather than be convicted for murder, on the basis they were 'provoked' (ie the gay guy came onto them).

Here's hoping the MP, Tim Barnett, is able to persuade his parliament to do away with the anachronistic 'homosexual panic defence':

Move to end provocation defence for gay murders

Gay bashers who kill men who hit on them sexually will lose their defence of provocation if the Law Commission and Labour MP Tim Barnett have their way.

The so-called "homosexual panic defence" has historically resulted in more lenient sentences for such defendants.

Now Barnett is considering introducing a private member's bill to eliminate the defence after growing concerns about men being convicted of manslaughter, not murder, when they kill gay men after a sexual approach.

He has asked colleagues to draft a bill and hopes to introduce it within the next two or three months.

The Law Commission is also examining the issue and is likely to recommend repealing section 169 of the Crimes Act, which allows for a defence of provocation. Commission deputy president Warren Young said it was likely to recommend the repeal because matters such as provocation should be considered in sentencing.

It is 20 years today since the controversial Homosexual Law Reform Bill became law. But many are still critical of a legal anachronism which allows a defendant to get away with manslaughter, not murder, if he argues he was panicked into attacking someone who provoked him by an unwanted sexual approach.

Three years ago Auckland celebrity interior designer David McNee was bashed to death by transient Phillip Layton Edwards. The defence successfully argued that Edwards, who had 56 previous convictions and had been on parole for 11 days, was provoked into beating McNee after the former television host violated their "no touching" agreement. Edwards was jailed for nine years for manslaughter.

AdvertisementAdvertisementThe law change issue is canvassed in a Victoria University Law Review paper by associate law professor Elisabeth McDonald, due out in six weeks. McDonald argues that the provocation defence invariably arises out of a defendant's homophobia and should not be treated as a mitigating factor.

It was mainly used by "men who get angry and kill someone", she said.

A group of human rights activists says the homosexual panic defence would never be justified in a murder involving a heterosexual victim. Among them is Aids Foundation chairman Jeremy Lambert, who said the defence, which is part of common law rather than statute law, was an "absurdity".

"This is a particularly hideous piece of law that was made on the sly. It can mean you would never be found guilty of murdering a gay man."

The McNee case was a classic example of the law not protecting gay men, Lambert said.

"It's abhorrent to suggest that we should downplay the seriousness of what Edwards did because he was hit on."

Young said the current law relating to provocation was muddled and very difficult for lawyers and judges to understand, let alone a jury. It had originally existed as a partial defence when New Zealand still had capital punishment and a mandatory life sentence for murder. But changes to sentencing laws had given judges more discretion over mitigating factors such as provocation.

Edited July 9, 2006 by craftwork

[calibanjr.]

Jeez, I'm pretty practiced. Former (I hope) drunk Irish guy, 6', 220lbs., collegiate wrestler, and sometimes angry bar-fighter guy. I've been in a few dust-ups. If you can get it together to keep pounding on a guy to kill somebody, you gotta be put away, rationale notwithstanding.

[PeaceBlondie]

It's not Thailand related, unless we care to discuss how absurd such a law would be in Thailand.

I was in the closet during my twenty-year marriage. Never, never was I 'hit upon' or solicited for sex by a gay guy. And I wasn't so ugly then, or so old. Being gay by nature, I think I would have noticed if I were being solicited. Nope.

And in Thailand? Even the most outrageous katoeys aren't trying to jump your bones, unless you're in a commercial sex zone and asking for it. Nahh.

[jdinasia]

The "gay Panic Defense" has been tried often in the USA and was even tried in the court case when I was mugged .... (it failed and the guy with the gun died in prison ... such a shame)

it has been ruled out in most states since Matt Sheppard was killed .... but even now they try it in some places.

Now .. on to Thailand .... sure it COULD happen here ... but hel_l I don't see it flying ...

No one CARES that someone is gay ... you might get your head knocked off IF you touch someone inappropriately ... but imho that is even more likely to happen if you touch the wrong girl than a guy ...

and if you happen to be drunk .. you'll more likely get laughed at and called a silly kathoey (used slightly perjoratively) than anything else ....

[skippybangkok]

Worked in Airlines for a few years.....plenty of Gays there , had no problem with them. The type which are bad are the "lets convert you type". Had one follow me once in the changing room of a swimming pool who thought it was ok to go for a grab. He (she ) never got that far and ended up in hospital with a well deserved broken jaw, i suspect eating blended food for 8 weeks . ( one hit only ).

I agree killing someone is over the top, but I can understand the "impulse reaction" which in my case was almost a reflex action.

[craftwork]

Many posts have been put on this board which are not strictly Thailand-related. When the board was in its relative infancy, a band of us (including the mods) posted a bunch of them, many from news wires on the net, and some were received well. As I speak, there's another post on this page concerning the Catholic Church. That's not Thailand related either.

The point of putting it here was not to get your views on how absurd a law like that would be for

Thailand. Can't imagine such a law ever being introduced here, because as many have argued esewhere on this board, being gay is not perceived in the same threatening way here as it is by some westerners.

The point was to get readers' views on the 'provocation' defence in general, and one or two have responded in that spirit...in particular the comments about Matt Shepard and impulse reactions, which I had not considered before.

Speaking of the church, you can read about the role Catholic priests played in trying to upset the jury trial in Wyoming that followed Matt Shephard's death. Matt's father talks about it here, in a moving tribute to his son ('my hero') which he made at the close of the trial. Warning: terribly, terribly sad!

http://www.pflagdetroit.org/matthew_sheppa...ribute_page.htm

[jdinasia]

Worked in Airlines for a few years.....plenty of Gays there , had no problem with them. The type which are bad are the "lets convert you type". Had one follow me once in the changing room of a swimming pool who thought it was ok to go for a grab. He (she ) never got that far and ended up in hospital with a well deserved broken jaw, i suspect eating blended food for 8 weeks . ( one hit only ).

I agree killing someone is over the top, but I can understand the "impulse reaction" which in my case was almost a reflex action.

Man ... I imagine if you think that way you are very greatful that women don't have muscles like yours! If everyman that grabbed a woman got a broken jaw ... well ... maybe ...

Guess it could be that fear of latency that is so often discussed ....

[dukkha]

As gay men we all have experienced, at some time, the guy who is not quite sure of his own sexuality and expresses that inner doubt with violence against us, the gay man...I mean why do so many hetero men even think for one moment that we might be interested in them..not me that's for sure and I imagine that is the case with most of us....the homosexual panic syndrome has been used in Australia to pass lighter sentences for years, I mean why bother to go home with somone if you are not at all interested in them in a sexual way...gawd we are all polymorphous in our sexuality but it seems it is still OK to 'kill a fag' cos he 'came on to me'...utter bullshit in my opinion.. Dukkha

[skippybangkok]

...I mean why do so many hetero men even think for one moment that we might be interested in them..not me that's for sure and I imagine that is the case with most of us...

What a load of crap. See the above & ........ having worked in the airline industry for some time, there are plenty chasing after straight men trying to make a conversion or hit or what ever it is.

Have seen plenty of gay stewards in Malaysia marry "cover girls " ( stupid up country girls ) so as to have a cover for the family that all is well.

I do have gay friends, and it dont bother me, in fact i used to go out dining at food stalls with a whole hord from the airlines. But to say that gays (the "coverting type) dont come on to straight men is the lie of the centry. Have slugged a few already who crossed the line, and would not hesitate to do it again for those who think its their right to grab u or otherwise make physical approaches.

[Guest endure]

I do have gay friends, and it dont bother me, in fact i used to go out dining at food stalls with a whole hord from the airlines. But to say that gays (the "coverting type) dont come on to straight men is the lie of the centry. Have slugged a few already who crossed the line, and would not hesitate to do it again for those who think its their right to grab u or otherwise make physical approaches.

Does this happen to you on a regular basis?

[craftwork]

A provocative response would be to ask: how many people have been bashed because they are gay...or beaten other people, because they were gay (and did something annoying or upsetting)?

[Guest endure]

I've been attacked 4 times simply because I'm gay. Two of those occasions were severe enough to put me in hospital. None of the attacks were as a result of provocation. I was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[DUMPSTER]

...I mean why do so many hetero men even think for one moment that we might be interested in them..not me that's for sure and I imagine that is the case with most of us...

What a load of crap. See the above & ........ having worked in the airline industry for some time, there are plenty chasing after straight men trying to make a conversion or hit or what ever it is.

Have seen plenty of gay stewards in Malaysia marry "cover girls " ( stupid up country girls ) so as to have a cover for the family that all is well.

I do have gay friends, and it dont bother me, in fact i used to go out dining at food stalls with a whole hord from the airlines. But to say that gays (the "coverting type) dont come on to straight men is the lie of the centry. Have slugged a few already who crossed the line, and would not hesitate to do it again for those who think its their right to grab u or otherwise make physical approaches.

Well I have to agree that in general gay men wouldn't waste their time trying to pick up a straight guy. We might look and admire ones beauty or body but that's about it. The only confusion would be if the gay guy thinks there is a possibility the so called straight could be gay or bi. I would imagine there would be alot of confusion in the airline industry and confusion also with closet gays whose so called gaydar wouldn't be quite as strong as an openly gay guy. I have found married gay or bi men take far bigger liberties with regards to cruising etc than any gay man. They appear more desperate for a grope or a quicky.

If a gay guy comes onto you skippy, he simply made a mistake and thought you were gay. So does that mistake give you the right to thump him? Well obviously you are so insecure about your sexuality that it does.

So the gay guy touches your ass or balls, whats wrong with a simple, i'm sorry im not gay? How come it even got that far that he decided to touch/ try it on with you? Were you leading him on? Were you in a gay bar? Why didn't you make it clear to him that you were straight? After all I can make it clear to a gay guy that i'm not interested and i'm sure girls can make it clear to you that they are not interested, so why can't you? Are you actually saying that you told a gay guy that you are straight and he still touched you?

I might just add that I don't think it's right for anybody to touch anyone in a sexual way without them agreeing to it. That goes for guys touching guys or girls and even girls touching girls. It is an invasion of privacy in my book but if someone touched me innapropriately I wouldn't thump them unless violence was being used with the sexual touch.

Seems to me you are simply a thug or a simple thug if you have to use your fists to defend your masculinity that you feel has been tainted.

[dukkha]

The Lie of the Century....I not be thinkin so Skippy....of course some gay men come on to staight men, do you think I am that naive?? Try the one Bush told to the American people and the rest of the world on Iraq...digressing!

In 6 years llving in LOS I have not had one unpleasant experience regarding my homosexuality which is more than I can say for living in Australia for 55 years, have had physical and verbal violence inflicted..your posts on this matter give me the feeling that you have an aggresive stance towards some people, best one avoids you...I find heterosexuality a very fascinating phenomenon! Dukkha

[craftwork]

Two posters, including a mod, seem concerned that this thread is unrelated to

Thailand. The argument seems to be that if it is not related directly, it shouldn't be here.

I beg to differ. Nothing in the posting rules for this sub-forum says posts have to be directly related to this country. Many posts have been left on this sub-forum which take a broader look at gay issues, and how they have affected people here (the church, for example), rather than looking specifically at being gay in Thailand.

This first post in this thread was based on an overseas news wire story taken from the internet.

No Thai connection apparent, and all a bit academic and woolly, perhaps.

However, the conversation has quickly progressed, so that now we are talking about something which is presumably of direct interest to people here - how society at large has taken to their being gay. Anyone here care to withdraw their comments about how they were beaten or assaulted, because those things happened to them overseas, and are not directly Thai-related?

It can be dangerous posting links to articles from the internet willy-nilly: witness the one immediately above. Who knows what the poster intended. As ever, readers have to use their discretion, and give the poster the benefit of the doubt.

However, the alternative - ignoring the net altogether as a potential resource - seems a forlorn choice, too. Being gay is about much more than which pub you went to last night, or what your Thai boyfriend says about your haircut.

[Ijustwannateach]

I agree that we've had plenty of discussions in this subforum that are not specifically Thai-related, on such topics as:

Religion and homosexuality

Science/biology and homosexuality

Sociology and homosexuality

I see this topic as one of the latter kind. If it were really, really necessary, perhaps we could "spin" the topic as a "Is gaybashing less common in Thailand" kind of thing? Do we really need to? It seems odd to me that it's an issue here, because it hasn't been on other threads.

"Steven"

[PeaceBlondie]

The offensive post, and posts relating to it, have been removed.

I don't mind us talking about a phase of homosexuality which has only limited application to Thailand. However, posts that are obviously gay-bashing and try to relate homosexuality to certain types of crimes that are committed far, far more often by straight men, will not be accepted.

If I hadn't been in the hospital for surgery, the offending post would have been deleted a couple of days ago.

[skippybangkok]

DUMPSTER

"leading on" ... mega lol. Trying get dressed under a towel in a changing room in a public pool with 3 "guys" pretending to get dressed hoping to get a view of ur private parts.... and then i go to the wash basin part ( seperate area) to comb my hair, one follows me, stands millimeters next to me, and goes for a grab... if you call that leading on..... ur sick.

I swim for my health, 50 meter pools are good for laps. If going to a pool is leading some one on....... god help us all.

The thing is there are no females getting changed in male changing rooms, so i can't see this happening anytime soon.

I was (almost) violated, if it was not for a reflex knock to the chin which even took me by surprise.

I believe in live and let live, and have no issues with anyone, and have no problems with Gays as per my previous mail. Bashing anyone for the sake of it, is animalistic in my oppinion. My left hander to his jaw was not pre-meditated, and was well deserved. If you think its acceptable practice to do such things, u need to re-look at ur values

Edited July 18, 2006 by skippybangkok

[DUMPSTER]

DUMPSTER

"leading on" ... mega lol. Trying get dressed under a towel in a changing room in a public pool with 3 "guys" pretending to get dressed hoping to get a view of ur private parts.... and then i go to the wash basin part ( seperate area) to comb my hair, one follows me, stands millimeters next to me, and goes for a grab... if you call that leading on..... ur sick.

I swim for my health, 50 meter pools are good for laps. If going to a pool is leading some one on....... god help us all.

The thing is there are no females getting changed in male changing rooms, so i can't see this happening anytime soon.

I was (almost) violated, if it was not for a reflex knock to the chin which even took me by surprise.

I believe in live and let live, and have no issues with anyone, and have no problems with Gays as per my previous mail. Bashing anyone for the sake of it, is animalistic in my oppinion. My left hander to his jaw was not pre-meditated, and was well deserved. If you think its acceptable practice to do such things, u need to re-look at ur values

I don't know what was in the mind of the guy who tried to touch you. Gay guys might try and get a sneak look at your bits but to go as far as touching someone without a come on is, IMO, very rare because it is a very stupid thing to do.

I do wonder why you didn't try and deter the guy with a stare or a snarl. You seemed to be well aware of what was going on and he obviously thought you were gay

Though that said, it seems you were unfortunate to bump into a stupid guy. Whether he deserved a thump is another arguement. As a gay guy I would say a push away would suffice because it's not as if he pulled a knife on you.

[kayo]

Sorry for the straight point of view here, but I can´t help but think how absurd this is. If girls were to kill every guy that comes on to them, there´d be mass urders every day. same same with hardly any difference.

What an absurd defence. I hope they do away with it quickly.

[Ijustwannateach]

It is sad and pathetic, but not unexpected, that certain persons in this discussion cannot seem to distinguish between "bashing someone because they are gay" and "resisting rape." I very much doubt that even .001% of all bashings are a result of actual attempted rape of straight guys by gay men. Probably they get smiled at, panic, and let their homophobia take over.

It's a tough call between letting the words of the ignorant speak for themselves or letting this subforum be a haven free from such ugliness. I considered reporting the above post from "Skippy" but I haven't. What do others think?

"Steven"

[kayo]

yeah. You referring to my post steve? (sometime I don´t express myself correctly).

[Ijustwannateach]

No, no, not at all referring to you, Kayo!!!!!! Your post is fine!

There was a very ugly post from another member which has been deleted...

[steveromagnino]

I am not gay (not that there is anything wrong with it, Seinfeld) but saw the title of the thread.

Seems crazy to me it was ever a defense; someone coming onto me politely gets a polite refusal; and an impolite refusal if they are rude. Furthest I would think you would need to go is a few sharp words, or a few fends to keep people away from the ,er, body.

For whatever reason, perhaps being 1/2 Thai, reasonably fit, short hair and so on, I am according to the many gay people in the industry I used to work in (and a magnet industry for gay people worldwide, one of the people that gay people almost always think or hope is gay.

Only ever had significant problems here, and that is in pubs, bars and, of course, the people involed are drunk. Fortunately, gaining a big fat stomach has helped out on that matter in reducing my vast appeals. But certainly no more problems than dealing with drunk people in general. Drunk people are a pain in the butt, gay straight whatever; forgive, walk past and ignore.

It is the drunk farang yobos in Pattaya that scare the c&*p out of me; maybe they should change the law that it is only manslaughter if someone says 'what the f&*k are you lookin at?' or 'are you looking at my girl?' (the usual Kiwi provocations for a fight, with no correct answer).

[Ijustwannateach]

The only incidents I've heard of violent gays in Thailand usually involved either jealousy & alcohol, or really stupid tourists and alcohol, and all parties were gay. One keeps overhearing straights complaining about gays flagrantly and constantly coming on to them in the gyms; if only it were true! I have been and do get cruised in gym locker rooms et al, but it is almost always tentative, subtle, and searching- for the very reason that people do not want to deal with folks like "Skippy."

I have a feeling that folks like "Skippy" are out looking for some kind of fight, more often than not. Strangely, I've never "accidentally" hit someone in my life, and generally take responsibility for my own actions. Guess I'm one of those lucky types whose limbs don't have minds of their own.

As I mentioned before in this thread- the only openly homophobic experiences I've had in Thailand were with foreigners.

[skippybangkok]

Report.... lol..... Report what? You want to report that a factual event which happend to me is distastefull ? Go ahead.

Seems i am a real basher eh! The first and only person i have hit in my adult life. Makes me a real thug i guess.

Live in your own world if u may and dont face the facts ( of this event ). Go whine like a kid to a moderator. I am not picking a fight as u suggest, simply giving another view to this ludicrous belief that gays to not approach straight men. I guess if you have never been straight, you would not know.

Looking back, it was attempted rape in essense.

[skippybangkok]

And this notion that these things happen in step by step events which can be controlled one by one before moving onto the decision point is ludicrous. Its like a guy has got a gun to your head and pulling the trigger, and you are going to tell him " now now, that not the right think to do"....maybe pull an angry face first ? lol. Some people are living in fantasy world

Get real....

[kayo]

No, no, not at all referring to you, Kayo!!!!!! Your post is fine!

There was a very ugly post from another member which has been deleted...

Ah.. Okay.

I htink i might have a vague notion as to who´s post you were referring to.

Now.

[jdinasia]

Skippy ... keep dreaming

[Ijustwannateach]