Israel PM vows further Gaza campaign

[Eliot Rosewater]

They want peace , that only war can bring. sounds like a plan, just remember Israel dont complain about the holocaust as you are now doing the same.

Don't be a fool, comparing the two only makes you look ignorant

[Seastallion]

It seems some posters here only believe in democracy when the side they support wins!

The same old discredited talking points.

No one - but apparently you - thinks that the Palestinians "deserve" to be bombed, but they certainly should have expected it when they voted in a violent terrorist group dedicated to the destruction of Israel and far from capable of carrying it out. There are consequences for foolish actions.

As to your suggestion that Israel not retaliate when Hamas breaks the ceasefire and fires rockets into Israel. I'm pretty sure that they would think that was idiotic and so would pretty much any country in the world, if it were happening to them.

I am fairly sure that I could quote you many times saying they (the Palestinians) deserve what they get.

Are you finally coming round to reason and humaitarianism? I hope so, but somehow doubt it.

[dexterm]

Hamas: three top commanders dead in Israeli air strikes

That will teach Hamas to stop violating ceasefires that they have signed on to.

When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose.

There is always the danger this conflict may escalate outside of the Middle East.

If Israel assassinates Hamas members along with their wives and families, what's to stop Hamas targeting ex IDF back packers In Khao San Rd and many other places in the world where they congregate. They are still reservists and only a few months before were murdering Palestinian children.

Edited August 21, 2014 by dexterm

[Ulysses G.]

They have already tried and failed, but they certainly might try again. After all they are nothing but terrorists.

[dexterm]

Pray tell, what have the Palestinians have ever contributed to the world's well being and benefits

other than being donkey riding, backward, fragmented tribal society ruled by tyrants and mad man

bent on endless wars and destruction of other nations???? I mean what contribution to science, medicine

technology, agriculture? how many Noble prizes have they won? none, Nada, zilch...

Israel has won 12 Noble prizes so far, and is in front line of every sciences know to man

as well as being the democracy in the Mid east where Arab Israeli citizens have equal rights

to their Jewish fellow citizens, sure not all is rosy there, but this is a fully pledged democracy

there, and no one gets his head chapped off......unlike other Arab counties....

"Pray tell, what have the Palestinians have ever contributed to the world's well being and benefits"

Actually, much of modern medicine, architecture and mathematics is a result of the work of Arab scholars.

What have Arabs done in the last 800 years and what have the Palestinian Arabs ever done? That was his question. I don't think he was looking for a lecture on ancient history.

ezzra was actually trying to imply that it’s somehow justifiable to reward Zionists, who ethnically cleanse Palestinians from their land then steal it, in proportion to the number of Nobel Prizes Jews have won. What’s the going rate ..one illegal colony per prize?

[Morch]

One of the arguments presented by some on the pro Israeli side I find confusing is that they trumpet that Israel is a democracy, whilst ignoring that it is a democracy where a significant minority of the population have far fewer rights than the majority, but then say that the Palestinians deserve to be bombed, killed and maimed in their thousands because they voted in a government which Israel doesn't care for!

It seems some posters here only believe in democracy when the side they support wins!

As for who broke this latest ceasefire; as is to be expected, each side blames the other, and only they know the truth.

But as I have said many times before; Israel should take the moral high ground and say that whilst they reserve the right of individual IDF units to defend themselves, they will not retaliate if Hamas break the ceasefire by firing rockets into Israel.

In addition they should say that even though you, or break away groups of yours, are still firing rockets at us, we want to talk and so we will not be provoked into bombing and killing and maiming even more Palestinian civilians. They should say that they want to talk and to resolve this conflict peacefully.

But I fear that they wont do any of that.

All the indications are that the Israeli government don't want peace, they want to destroy Palestine.

Israel is an imperfect democracy. Not quite up to the standards of more peaceful Western democracies. Then again, Israel is also not a totalitarian police state, not a theocracy and not run by a military dictator.

Since I do not think I ever made the alluded argument, not going there. I'll just say that when Hamas was on the campaign trail back then, they spoke a wee bit differently for a while (mostly for electoral and financial reasons). Had they gone to the ballot with something resembling their ordinary fare, results could have been somewhat different.

The Hamas does not, for the most part, target IDF units, but focuses on indiscriminate rocket launches toward civilian areas. Not sure that there are many examples, globally, for such forbearance as you prescribe. Certainly would not go down too well with voters.

The notion that Hamas, while holding its current ideology, is a side with which things could be resolved peacefully is pure delusion. The notion that fighting the Hamas indicates that Israel wishes to destroy Palestine is bogus - Hamas is not all of Palestine.

[Seastallion]

Hamas: three top commanders dead in Israeli air strikes

That will teach Hamas to stop violating ceasefires that they have signed on to.

When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose.

There is always the danger this conflict may escalate outside of the Middle East.

If Israel assassinates Hamas members along with their wives and families, what's to stop Hamas targeting ex IDF back packers In Khao San Rd and many other places in the world where they congregate. They are still reservists and only a few months before were murdering Palestinian children.

One of the things that disturbs me on the "Israel" threads is that assassination and targeted killing is illegal in the US and in international law yet when Deif was intentionally targeted and the only "yield" was his wife and child, people focused on that, not the fact that the IDF was once again breaking international law by attempting an assassination.

[Ulysses G.]

It is VERY common to target terrorist leaders and legal protections don't apply to them. Targeted killing is legitimate when employed against terrorists or combatants engaged in asymmetrical warfare

[Jean Pierre Jacquot]

It is VERY common to target terrorist leaders and legal protections don't apply to them. Targeted killing is legitimate when employed against terrorists or combatants engaged in asymmetrical warfare

Well in that case you would certainly agree with the fact that it is legitimate to kill all Israelis right? They are terrorists and almost all of them are former and present combatants.

[Scott]

An inflammatory post has been removed.

[Jean Pierre Jacquot]

Are there no peaceloving Jews/Israelis on this forum? Why do we get only the fascist, right-wing and racist ones who defend the killing of children as legitimate?

[Morch]

It is VERY common to target terrorist leaders and legal protections don't apply to them. Targeted killing is legitimate when employed against terrorists or combatants engaged in asymmetrical warfare

Well in that case you would certainly agree with the fact that it is legitimate to kill all Israelis right? They are terrorists and almost all of them are former and present combatants.

Might want to check up on the meaning of "leaders", as it appears in UG's post, in comparison to "all" appearing in yours.

So you're saying that all of the Arab Israelis are terrorists as well?

Or do you mean that all Israelis, even those actively against the government policies are terrorists?

Or perhaps just the Jewish population?

As with most armies - the actual percent of soldiers who actually participate in combat is rather low. Most IDF soldiers

are not combatants.

[Wat dee]

If I had the money I would give them weapons and traing equal to that of Israel, at least then it might be a fair fight.

The Palestinians declared war on the new state of Israel in 1947 with 5 huge Arab armies to back them up. They had many more soldiers, more allies and better weapons, but they still got their butts kicked. The same thing happened several times afterwards until Israel made its army one of the best in the world.

The Palestinians are never going to win a war. They need to learn from their mistakes.

If they only had grown a pare few years earlier!

[Eliot Rosewater]

Pray tell, what have the Palestinians have ever contributed to the world's well being and benefits

other than being donkey riding, backward, fragmented tribal society ruled by tyrants and mad man

bent on endless wars and destruction of other nations???? I mean what contribution to science, medicine

technology, agriculture? how many Noble prizes have they won? none, Nada, zilch...

Israel has won 12 Noble prizes so far, and is in front line of every sciences know to man

as well as being the democracy in the Mid east where Arab Israeli citizens have equal rights

to their Jewish fellow citizens, sure not all is rosy there, but this is a fully pledged democracy

there, and no one gets his head chapped off......unlike other Arab counties....

"Pray tell, what have the Palestinians have ever contributed to the world's well being and benefits"

Actually, much of modern medicine, architecture and mathematics is a result of the work of Arab scholars.

What have Arabs done in the last 800 years and what have the Palestinian Arabs ever done? That was his question. I don't think he was looking for a lecture on ancient history.

ezzra was actually trying to imply that it’s somehow justifiable to reward Zionists, who ethnically cleanse Palestinians from their land then steal it, in proportion to the number of Nobel Prizes Jews have won. What’s the going rate ..one illegal colony per prize?

Do you know what ethnic cleansing really means? Apparently not.

[Eliot Rosewater]

I cannot understand that Hamas can claim to be the speaker for the Palestinian people, because they are not. One day very soon the people of Gaza will turn against them. I hope Israel will be there helping them, but probably not. The jews are very racist, just like the German SS.

Jews and Arabs are the same race, genius; therefore it is impossible for one group to be "racist" against the other.

I also find this path some of you are going down extremely offensive; my family were butchered in the holocaust. Those who weren't murdered outright were sent to concentration camps and killed in the ovens.

I understand that some may disagree with tactics but Israel has never, and will never do ANYTHING even close to what the nazis did, so shut the <deleted> up.

There is NO comparison so stop being STUPID

[boomerangutang]

Are there no peaceloving Jews/Israelis on this forum? Why do we get only the fascist, right-wing and racist ones who defend the killing of children as legitimate?

It's not a question of 'peace-loving'. It's a question of being able to live in a town without rockets coming in. I am not a Jew or an Israeli, but I accept that Israel exists on that terrain, and that people who live there are justified in protecting the places where they reside and work. As for 'killing of children' ...war is ugly, my friend. Combatants on both sides should distance themselves from children and other innocents, because the next bomb that falls may fall on the combatant, and it's better if just he died, then also a bunch of innocents hanging out with him.

I cannot understand that Hamas can claim to be the speaker for the Palestinian people, because they are not. One day very soon the people of Gaza will turn against them. I hope Israel will be there helping them, but probably not. The jews are very racist, just like the German SS.

It's difficult for Gazans to vote how they might really want to vote. There is pressure from radicals - forcing them to vote how they're told to vote. Israel can't 'help' Palestinians in the voting dept. (for several reasons), mainly because Palestinians are opposed to anything/everything to do with Israel. If an Israeli said the sky is blue, a Palestinian would do all he could to prove the sky is another color.

[chuckd]

I get the distinct feeling that one major complaint against the Israelis is their superior military advantage over the Palestinians and that this war is being fought unfairly.

Palestinian supporters continually post casualty figures that show a great disparity between the two warring sides to prove their point.

They are correct that a huge disparity does exist in the casualty figures, but they have never come up with any solution to the problem. Let me offer some suggestions to alleviate this problem.

1. Israel should turn off Iron Dome for a minimum of six hours each day so the rockets sent "To Whom it may Concern" can land in populated areas, thus killing more Israelis and closing the death gap.

2. Israel should stop the naval blockade as has been suggested on this forum numerous times. This would enable Hamas to bring in larger, better and more deadly rockets from Iran that could be targeted on the civilian population during Iron Dome down times with better results.

3. Israel should permit the import in to Gaza of better mine tunneling equipment. This would make for faster tunnel digging and free up more teenagers so they could join the rioters and try to kill even more Israelis.

4. More heavy construction materials should be permitted entry into Gaza. What they have been importing is being used for the aforementioned tunnels and an increase in building materials would make the tunnels safer and they would be able to build even better bunkers for the Hamas leadership.

5. The Israeli Air Force should be limited in their bombing runs strictly to areas where the population density is fewer than 5 Palestinians per square kilometer. This limitation should be applied to Israeli artillery as well.

6. The rules of engagement (ROE) for the Israeli Army should be altered to state no return fire can be directed at Palestinian rioters until at least one (1) Israeli soldier has died as a result of wounds received from an unprovoked attack by the Palestinians.

7. Border crossings from Gaza to Israel should be opened and unmanned at least six hours daily to permit unfettered access to those Palestinians who wish to become suicide bombers and take Israelis out with them. After all, what good is a suicide bomber unless he takes out some innocent civilians? Without the civilians he is merely an inept bomb builder. The added advantage to opening the border would be that Hamas could then drive their own truck bombs directly into Tel Aviv, thereby narrowing the body count in their favor more rapidly.

These are simply some examples of actions that could be taken to make this battle take place on a level playing field.

After all, what's fair is fair. Right?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now for some more serious thoughts. The above is written tongue in cheek to stress the ridiculous claims that Palestinians are somehow being unfairly treated.

Hamas initiates these attacks on Israel from densely populated urban areas in order for any retaliatory fire from the IDF to kill or injure as many civilians as possible. This is the reason they use hospitals, mosques, schools and UN facilities to fire from and for weapons storage.

If Hamas truly had the welfare of their population at heart, they would fire the rockets from some of that vacant land in Gaza that is not heavily populated. If you believe otherwise, you are sorely ill informed.

I am certain this post will draw vehement vitriol from those that favor Palestine but you should be aware I am in my 76th year on this earth, have been through a few wars myself and fear only God and my wife...not necessarily in that order.

Have at it...or reflect on your personal positions and see if you might need to alter them just a little.

War is not designed to be fair. That's why it's not called "boxing".

[Ulysses G.]

I cannot understand that Hamas can claim to be the speaker for the Palestinian people, because they are not. One day very soon the people of Gaza will turn against them. I hope Israel will be there helping them, but probably not. The jews are very racist, just like the German SS.

Jews and Arabs are the same race, genius; therefore it is impossible for one group to be "racist" against the other.

I also find this path some of you are going down extremely offensive; my family were butchered in the holocaust. Those who weren't murdered outright were sent to concentration camps and killed in the ovens.

I understand that some may disagree with tactics but Israel has never, and will never do ANYTHING even close to what the nazis did, so shut the <deleted> up.

There is NO comparison so stop being STUPID

The difference between the deaths of Palestinians in Gaza and Jews in Nazi Germany is one of magnitude, not dynamics.

As Eliot Rosewater said, please stop repeatedly posting such utter stupidity.

The Jews in WW2 were rounded up and gassed for no reason, other than their religion. They were completely non-violent.

The Palestinians in Gaza declared war on Israel 66 years ago and have never stopped fighting. They even elected a terrorist organization to govern them. Palestinians have been killed in legitimate military actions in order to stop rocket fire from Gaza, but civilians were not .purposely targeted. In fact they have been warned in advance to leave dangerous areas repeatedly.

There is no sane comparison between the two situations, no matter how many times you repeat it.

[arjunadawn]

Are there no peaceloving Jews/Israelis on this forum? Why do we get only the fascist, right-wing and racist ones who defend the killing of children as legitimate?

Guilty as charged.....better a 'fascist' than a dhimmi.

...by the way, your burqa has been shipped .

Jean Pierre J- I am glad I had stumbled across this thread. I had previously, and mistakenly, interpreted your posts and different than mine, but meaningful; I was mistaken. Your post above cannot hardly be taken out of context. You clearly are arrogant and provocative. Moreover, you don't even effectively conceal it. Ignorance will always reveal its hand. You setup a strawman by way of a question "are there no peaceloving [sic] Jews/Israelis on this forum?" and then respond inferring that TV posters are Jews and Israelis, are not peace-loving, and condone "the killing of children." Its easy to slay a strawman that cant fight back; your effort speaks volumes for why there is conflict.

You can vomit further if you wish but you have on this forum, at least amongst posterity who visit here, reduced yourself to the comical.

[Scott]

Post and replies have been removed for violating forum rules.

[arjunadawn]

I cannot understand that Hamas can claim to be the speaker for the Palestinian people, because they are not. One day very soon the people of Gaza will turn against them. I hope Israel will be there helping them, but probably not. The jews are very racist, just like the German SS.

Jews and Arabs are the same race, genius; therefore it is impossible for one group to be "racist" against the other.

I also find this path some of you are going down extremely offensive; my family were butchered in the holocaust. Those who weren't murdered outright were sent to concentration camps and killed in the ovens.

I understand that some may disagree with tactics but Israel has never, and will never do ANYTHING even close to what the nazis did, so shut the <deleted> up.

There is NO comparison so stop being STUPID

The difference between the deaths of Palestinians in Gaza and Jews in Nazi Germany is one of magnitude, not dynamics.

As Eliot Rosewater said, please stop repeatedly posting such utter stupidity.

The Jews in WW2 were rounded up and gassed for no reason, other than their religion. They were completely non-violent.

The Palestinians in Gaza declared war on Israel 66 years ago and have never stopped fighting. They even elected a terrorist organization to govern them. Palestinians have been killed in legitimate military actions in order to stop rocket fire from Gaza, but civilians were not .purposely targeted. In fact they have been warned in advance to leave dangerous areas repeatedly.

There is no sane comparison between the two situations, no matter how many times you repeat it.

I have previously noted, and I re affirm it, that you can infer a lot about the inner workings of a man by the choice of metaphors and analogies that are used. For instance, I believe so much of the nonsense that is birthed in the vivid imagination of anti Israel persons on this forum are not at all original thought. But when the same staples- the same suggestions and analogies persist, you easily see you are conversing with someone who's opinions were formed in the crucible of... nothing at all! Opinions like this are often regurgitated counter charges offered by earlier Jew haters.

Example: Is it really unique thought to assign to the Jews as an indictment the very horror that befell the Jews in WWII? No, the Ayatollahs, imams, PLO, and numerous others have always both minimized the holocaust and elevated the appearance that the Jews themselves are guilt of such things. Is this really the intellectual company one feels good about keeping? This association does not mean its not true, or course. But it is not true. There is hardly a standard by which someone could sustain the charge that Israel does to arabs what was done to the Jews in WWII. But this is a key foundation for many who despise Jews, and is also used effectively in politics- repeat something often enough until it is accepted fact. Take from your opponent their narrative, claim it as your own, and beat them with the historical revision- (gaslighting, I believe).

In the end, I hardly believe all Palestinian supporters are vile or haters. I just think the weight of facts and history and truth do not lend to precise argument. This is why there is always a vortex that opens up with the anti Israeli crowd. No matter the effort to stick to reason it will always digress into personal attacks, collective indictment of Jews, or seizing from the Jews components of their collective history, negating it, and in turn charging them similarly with the horrors visited upon them. It is a real man who can stand strong in the face of overwhelming evidence they are incorrect, and recede or regroup their conviction. It is more likely the predictable human nature to flail about throwing even the kitchen sink. Though natural, they should be called on it.

[Seastallion]

Snip the silly stuff for ease of reading the rest...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now for some more serious thoughts. The above is written tongue in cheek to stress the ridiculous claims that Palestinians are somehow being unfairly treated.

Hamas initiates these attacks on Israel from densely populated urban areas in order for any retaliatory fire from the IDF to kill or injure as many civilians as possible. This is the reason they use hospitals, mosques, schools and UN facilities to fire from and for weapons storage.

If Hamas truly had the welfare of their population at heart, they would fire the rockets from some of that vacant land in Gaza that is not heavily populated. If you believe otherwise, you are sorely ill informed.

I am certain this post will draw vehement vitriol from those that favor Palestine but you should be aware I am in my 76th year on this earth, have been through a few wars myself and fear only God and my wife...not necessarily in that order.

Have at it...or reflect on your personal positions and see if you might need to alter them just a little.

War is not designed to be fair. That's why it's not called "boxing".

"..ridiculous claims that Palestinians are somehow being unfairly treated". It is ridiculous to say that they are being fairly treated as you imply. Is it fair that they have their homes stolen? Is it fair that women and children are killed in retaliation for rockets landing in empty fields? Are the other inequities too numerous to write here fair?

Did you ever consider that Hamas fighters fire from urban areas because Gaza, under Israeli force, is one of the most densely packed areas of the world..they have nowhere else to go! Your suggestion they should go to an empty field is as ridiculous in today's standards of warfare as the red uniforms of the British 200 years ago.

So your age makes you wise and well-informed does it? Or does it make you somewhat cranky and thus not level headed? I'm not sure, but you certainly don't seem to portray level headedness in your writing.

War is not fair. True. But there are conventions and international laws, of which Israel ignores and contravenes many.

[Seastallion]

I also find this path some of you are going down extremely offensive; my family were butchered in the holocaust. Those who weren't murdered outright were sent to concentration camps and killed in the ovens.

I understand that some may disagree with tactics but Israel has never, and will never do ANYTHING even close to what the nazis did, so shut the <deleted> up.

There is NO comparison so stop being STUPID

The difference between the deaths of Palestinians in Gaza and Jews in Nazi Germany is one of magnitude, not dynamics.

As Eliot Rosewater said, please stop repeatedly posting such utter stupidity.

The Jews in WW2 were rounded up and gassed for no reason, other than their religion. They were completely non-violent.

The Palestinians in Gaza declared war on Israel 66 years ago and have never stopped fighting. They even elected a terrorist organization to govern them. Palestinians have been killed in legitimate military actions in order to stop rocket fire from Gaza, but civilians were not .purposely targeted. In fact they have been warned in advance to leave dangerous areas repeatedly.

There is no sane comparison between the two situations, no matter how many times you repeat it.

I have previously noted, and I re affirm it, that you can infer a lot about the inner workings of a man by the choice of metaphors and analogies that are used. For instance, I believe so much of the nonsense that is birthed in the vivid imagination of anti Israel persons on this forum are not at all original thought. But when the same staples- the same suggestions and analogies persist, you easily see you are conversing with someone who's opinions were formed in the crucible of... nothing at all! Opinions like this are often regurgitated counter charges offered by earlier Jew haters.

Example: Is it really unique thought to assign to the Jews as an indictment the very horror that befell the Jews in WWII? No, the Ayatollahs, imams, PLO, and numerous others have always both minimized the holocaust and elevated the appearance that the Jews themselves are guilt of such things. Is this really the intellectual company one feels good about keeping? This association does not mean its not true, or course. But it is not true. There is hardly a standard by which someone could sustain the charge that Israel does to arabs what was done to the Jews in WWII. But this is a key foundation for many who despise Jews, and is also used effectively in politics- repeat something often enough until it is accepted fact. Take from your opponent their narrative, claim it as your own, and beat them with the historical revision- (gaslighting, I believe).

In the end, I hardly believe all Palestinian supporters are vile or haters. I just think the weight of facts and history and truth do not lend to precise argument. This is why there is always a vortex that opens up with the anti Israeli crowd. No matter the effort to stick to reason it will always digress into personal attacks, collective indictment of Jews, or seizing from the Jews components of their collective history, negating it, and in turn charging them similarly with the horrors visited upon them. It is a real man who can stand strong in the face of overwhelming evidence they are incorrect, and recede or regroup their conviction. It is more likely the predictable human nature to flail about throwing even the kitchen sink. Though natural, they should be called on it.

Oh, was that little slight of hand unintentional? Referring to the "anti Israel persons" and going on to say their unoriginal opinions are regurgitations of earlier "Jew haters". Depending how you read "earlier" one might think you are calling the current batch of anti-Israel persons Jew haters? That's quite an accusation.

Is it ad hominem if you refer collectively to a group of men, or does the term only refer to arguing against one man?

Someone (CBR250?) recently posted 5 points that show there does seem to be some valid analogy with Israelis and Nazi. He readily and rightly qualified that the horrors in Nazi Germany were of far greater magnitude. I wonder if you read those?

[arjunadawn]

I have previously noted, and I re affirm it, that you can infer a lot about the inner workings of a man by the choice of metaphors and analogies that are used. For instance, I believe so much of the nonsense that is birthed in the vivid imagination of anti Israel persons on this forum are not at all original thought. But when the same staples- the same suggestions and analogies persist, you easily see you are conversing with someone who's opinions were formed in the crucible of... nothing at all! Opinions like this are often regurgitated counter charges offered by earlier Jew haters.

Example: Is it really unique thought to assign to the Jews as an indictment the very horror that befell the Jews in WWII? No, the Ayatollahs, imams, PLO, and numerous others have always both minimized the holocaust and elevated the appearance that the Jews themselves are guilt of such things. Is this really the intellectual company one feels good about keeping? This association does not mean its not true, or course. But it is not true. There is hardly a standard by which someone could sustain the charge that Israel does to arabs what was done to the Jews in WWII. But this is a key foundation for many who despise Jews, and is also used effectively in politics- repeat something often enough until it is accepted fact. Take from your opponent their narrative, claim it as your own, and beat them with the historical revision- (gaslighting, I believe).

In the end, I hardly believe all Palestinian supporters are vile or haters. I just think the weight of facts and history and truth do not lend to precise argument. This is why there is always a vortex that opens up with the anti Israeli crowd. No matter the effort to stick to reason it will always digress into personal attacks, collective indictment of Jews, or seizing from the Jews components of their collective history, negating it, and in turn charging them similarly with the horrors visited upon them. It is a real man who can stand strong in the face of overwhelming evidence they are incorrect, and recede or regroup their conviction. It is more likely the predictable human nature to flail about throwing even the kitchen sink. Though natural, they should be called on it.

Oh, was that little slight of hand unintentional? Referring to the "anti Israel persons" and going on to say their unoriginal opinions are regurgitations of earlier "Jew haters". Depending how you read "earlier" one might think you are calling the current batch of anti-Israel persons Jew haters? That's quite an accusation.

Is it ad hominem if you refer collectively to a group of men, or does the term only refer to arguing against one man?

Someone (CBR250?) recently posted 5 points that show there does seem to be some valid analogy with Israelis and Nazi. He readily and rightly qualified that the horrors in Nazi Germany were of far greater magnitude. I wonder if you read those?

No, it was not unintentional, and yes, there thoughts are their own. My point was not well crafted. I think there are certain buzzwords, cliches, or concepts associated with Israel and the local arab issue that are indeed ideas previously offered to the world both by Israel haters, and valid opponents of Israel. Yet some of these claims border on, IMO, the ludicrous. When someone coopts these thoughts and offers them as their own deliberations, I do consider that a regurgitation. We all do this somewhat. However, these issues involve concepts such as genocide and extermination programs, etc. I do think that is a reach.

My point does not constitute ad hominen. I make no qualitative judgement regarding the posters. In interpersonal communication and knowledge and mass media, etc., have many of us frequently offering up thoughts that argument our position, we maintain, but are hardly our own (anyone has ever written a paper for school encounters this). Its just in this instance, I think it deserves commentary because genocide is a particularly vile act committed against jews (not solely) and the effort to revise history and recast them in that very place is at best disingenuous. The most vocal of such charges happen to be such people as Iran offers to the world stage recently.

I do believe a person could pull together 5 coherent points of comparison, CBR250. Nevertheless, of all the players in this sad affair there is actually only one side with a declared policy of annihilation, and that is not the Jews. Therefore, the assertion that the Jews have such ambitions should first challenge that their opponents do not- and they do! (You may not realize but your arguments, and others, have seriously challenged a few positions of mine for revising). Please proceed with the understanding I don't try to deceive or be misleading; I am not. Sometimes I miss something or appear to avoid. I do not. I am just not as smart as I think I am).

[Seastallion]

I have previously noted, and I re affirm it, that you can infer a lot about the inner workings of a man by the choice of metaphors and analogies that are used. For instance, I believe so much of the nonsense that is birthed in the vivid imagination of anti Israel persons on this forum are not at all original thought. But when the same staples- the same suggestions and analogies persist, you easily see you are conversing with someone who's opinions were formed in the crucible of... nothing at all! Opinions like this are often regurgitated counter charges offered by earlier Jew haters.

Example: Is it really unique thought to assign to the Jews as an indictment the very horror that befell the Jews in WWII? No, the Ayatollahs, imams, PLO, and numerous others have always both minimized the holocaust and elevated the appearance that the Jews themselves are guilt of such things. Is this really the intellectual company one feels good about keeping? This association does not mean its not true, or course. But it is not true. There is hardly a standard by which someone could sustain the charge that Israel does to arabs what was done to the Jews in WWII. But this is a key foundation for many who despise Jews, and is also used effectively in politics- repeat something often enough until it is accepted fact. Take from your opponent their narrative, claim it as your own, and beat them with the historical revision- (gaslighting, I believe).

In the end, I hardly believe all Palestinian supporters are vile or haters. I just think the weight of facts and history and truth do not lend to precise argument. This is why there is always a vortex that opens up with the anti Israeli crowd. No matter the effort to stick to reason it will always digress into personal attacks, collective indictment of Jews, or seizing from the Jews components of their collective history, negating it, and in turn charging them similarly with the horrors visited upon them. It is a real man who can stand strong in the face of overwhelming evidence they are incorrect, and recede or regroup their conviction. It is more likely the predictable human nature to flail about throwing even the kitchen sink. Though natural, they should be called on it.

Oh, was that little slight of hand unintentional? Referring to the "anti Israel persons" and going on to say their unoriginal opinions are regurgitations of earlier "Jew haters". Depending how you read "earlier" one might think you are calling the current batch of anti-Israel persons Jew haters? That's quite an accusation.

Is it ad hominem if you refer collectively to a group of men, or does the term only refer to arguing against one man?

Someone (CBR250?) recently posted 5 points that show there does seem to be some valid analogy with Israelis and Nazi. He readily and rightly qualified that the horrors in Nazi Germany were of far greater magnitude. I wonder if you read those?

No, it was not unintentional, and yes, there thoughts are their own. My point was not well crafted. I think there are certain buzzwords, cliches, or concepts associated with Israel and the local arab issue that are indeed ideas previously offered to the world both by Israel haters, and valid opponents of Israel. Yet some of these claims border on, IMO, the ludicrous. When someone coopts these thoughts and offers them as their own deliberations, I do consider that a regurgitation. We all do this somewhat. However, these issues involve concepts such as genocide and extermination programs, etc. I do think that is a reach.

My point does not constitute ad hominen. I make no qualitative judgement regarding the posters. In interpersonal communication and knowledge and mass media, etc., have many of us frequently offering up thoughts that argument our position, we maintain, but are hardly our own (anyone has ever written a paper for school encounters this). Its just in this instance, I think it deserves commentary because genocide is a particularly vile act committed against jews (not solely) and the effort to revise history and recast them in that very place is at best disingenuous. The most vocal of such charges happen to be such people as Iran offers to the world stage recently.

I do believe a person could pull together 5 coherent points of comparison, CBR250. Nevertheless, of all the players in this sad affair there is actually only one side with a declared policy of annihilation, and that is not the Jews. Therefore, the assertion that the Jews have such ambitions should first challenge that their opponents do not- and they do! (You may not realize but your arguments, and others, have seriously challenged a few positions of mine for revising). Please proceed with the understanding I don't try to deceive or be misleading; I am not. Sometimes I miss something or appear to avoid. I do not. I am just not as smart as I think I am).

I'm a little confused. You say turning people who hold an anti-Israeli position in these arguments into Jew haters was intentional?

I've covered this on another thread and can not comment further until I read your reply.

[7by7]

<snip>

As to your (7by7) suggestion that Israel not retaliate when Hamas breaks the ceasefire and fires rockets into Israel. I'm pretty sure that they would think that was idiotic and so would pretty much any country in the world, if it were happening to them.

The Hamas does not, for the most part, target IDF units, but focuses on indiscriminate rocket launches toward civilian areas. Not sure that there are many examples, globally, for such forbearance as you (7by7) prescribe.

I have used the example of the IRA before, that they were determined to destroy Northern Ireland, that they often deliberately targeted civilians.

Had the British government responded in the same way as Israel, by airstrikes against Republican areas which killed and maimed innocent civilians using the excuse that IRA members were there as well; what do you think the world's reaction would have been?

I am sure that the British government would have been roundly condemned; just as Israel is now.

The notion that Hamas, while holding its current ideology, is a side with which things could be resolved peacefully is pure delusion.

The same could have been, indeed was, said of the IRA 20 years ago; yet talks did happen, the IRA changed their ideology and now accept the right of the people of Northern Ireland to choose whether to be part of the UK or part of the RoI. Northern Ireland, apart from a few atrocities by both Republican and Loyalist terrorists, is now at peace and has been for 15 years.

The same might happen in Gaza, if the Israeli government hawks saw sense.

Ofcourse, just as before, those here who try and justify the bombing, killing and maiming of innocent civilians will now try and show how there are no lessons to be learned from one government dealing successfully with a terrorist organisation and the situation of another government currently unsuccessfully dealing with a terrorist organisation!

The more Palestinians the IDF and Israeli government kill and maim, the more support for Hamas will grow, and the more hard line Hamas will become.

[Ulysses G.]

<snip>

As to your (7by7) suggestion that Israel not retaliate when Hamas breaks the ceasefire and fires rockets into Israel. I'm pretty sure that they would think that was idiotic and so would pretty much any country in the world, if it were happening to them.

The Hamas does not, for the most part, target IDF units, but focuses on indiscriminate rocket launches toward civilian areas. Not sure that there are many examples, globally, for such forbearance as you (7by7) prescribe.

I have used the example of the IRA before, that they were determined to destroy Northern Ireland, that they often deliberately targeted civilians.

They were not determined to "destroy" Northern Ireland. That is deceitful. They wanted some territory back. The Hamas charter calls for the total destruction of Israel. It is a frank and open call for genocide. Hamas is NOT the IRA.

“The Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realization of Allah’s promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: ‘The day of judgment will not come until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jews will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say ‘O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.”

Edited August 22, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[arjunadawn]

I have previously noted, and I re affirm it, that you can infer a lot about the inner workings of a man by the choice of metaphors and analogies that are used. For instance, I believe so much of the nonsense that is birthed in the vivid imagination of anti Israel persons on this forum are not at all original thought. But when the same staples- the same suggestions and analogies persist, you easily see you are conversing with someone who's opinions were formed in the crucible of... nothing at all! Opinions like this are often regurgitated counter charges offered by earlier Jew haters.

Example: Is it really unique thought to assign to the Jews as an indictment the very horror that befell the Jews in WWII? No, the Ayatollahs, imams, PLO, and numerous others have always both minimized the holocaust and elevated the appearance that the Jews themselves are guilt of such things. Is this really the intellectual company one feels good about keeping? This association does not mean its not true, or course. But it is not true. There is hardly a standard by which someone could sustain the charge that Israel does to arabs what was done to the Jews in WWII. But this is a key foundation for many who despise Jews, and is also used effectively in politics- repeat something often enough until it is accepted fact. Take from your opponent their narrative, claim it as your own, and beat them with the historical revision- (gaslighting, I believe).

Oh, was that little slight of hand unintentional? Referring to the "anti Israel persons" and going on to say their unoriginal opinions are regurgitations of earlier "Jew haters". Depending how you read "earlier" one might think you are calling the current batch of anti-Israel persons Jew haters? That's quite an accusation.

Is it ad hominem if you refer collectively to a group of men, or does the term only refer to arguing against one man?

No, it was not unintentional, and yes, there thoughts are their own. My point was not well crafted. I think there are certain buzzwords, cliches, or concepts associated with Israel and the local arab issue that are indeed ideas previously offered to the world both by Israel haters, and valid opponents of Israel. Yet some of these claims border on, IMO, the ludicrous. When someone coopts these thoughts and offers them as their own deliberations, I do consider that a regurgitation. We all do this somewhat. However, these issues involve concepts such as genocide and extermination programs, etc. I do think that is a reach.

My point does not constitute ad hominen. I make no qualitative judgement regarding the posters. In interpersonal communication and knowledge and mass media, etc., have many of us frequently offering up thoughts that argument our position, we maintain, but are hardly our own (anyone has ever written a paper for school encounters this). Its just in this instance, I think it deserves commentary because genocide is a particularly vile act committed against jews (not solely) and the effort to revise history and recast them in that very place is at best disingenuous. The most vocal of such charges happen to be such people as Iran offers to the world stage recently.

I do believe a person could pull together 5 coherent points of comparison, CBR250. Nevertheless, of all the players in this sad affair there is actually only one side with a declared policy of annihilation, and that is not the Jews. Therefore, the assertion that the Jews have such ambitions should first challenge that their opponents do not- and they do! (You may not realize but your arguments, and others, have seriously challenged a few positions of mine for revising). Please proceed with the understanding I don't try to deceive or be misleading; I am not. Sometimes I miss something or appear to avoid. I do not. I am just not as smart as I think I am).

I'm a little confused. You say turning people who hold an anti-Israeli position in these arguments into Jew haters was intentional?

I've covered this on another thread and can not comment further until I read your reply.

I am unsure where you are going; really. I have just erased my response because my first point above actually states my point clearly and I would only be repeating it. I don't think i mentioned anything about "turning people."

There are people on this forum, as elsewhere, that have valid positions that differ from mine. While it is true that universally people can affirm a statement as there own but it was actually crafted in the media, opinion leaders, news, etc. This happens all the time. When someone who is antiisrael employs analogies of Israel to the holocaust, for example, this is a point that is peddled previously be people who really do hate jews and announce it. Example: minimizing the holocaust. Former Iranian president, etc. Associating Jewish actions today with the very crimes that were committed against Jews previously is not particularly new. Yet many of those who had previously offered up these comparisons were people of dubious character. So, while it is natural that these phrases, analogies, convictions merge with our own, and are hardly meaningful, when we are discussing such things as genocide, I do think they deserve closer inspection.

If one tries to read something really awful or libelous in my words it is really a reach. My mind actually does not think in terms of hatred and I have, overall, a real enjoyment and affection for TV, with particular regard for those who are not thinking as I am. This experience, even on this thread, has really enabled me to clarify my thoughts, and see points of view I had not considered before. So, if you are searching for a lever as to whether I deeply impugned my TV brothers and sisters, it is not there. I don't think like that and suggesting this would be a stretch. My point is a valid, observation about the nature of transpersonal ideas and how they spread, and are incorporated into our own. I don't know why I do but I labor to respond to you, but I do. I enjoy people who think differently.

Ask me pointedly. I will always state my point and hopefully admit when I err or offend.

[Seastallion]

I have previously noted, and I re affirm it, that you can infer a lot about the inner workings of a man by the choice of metaphors and analogies that are used. For instance, I believe so much of the nonsense that is birthed in the vivid imagination of anti Israel persons on this forum are not at all original thought. But when the same staples- the same suggestions and analogies persist, you easily see you are conversing with someone who's opinions were formed in the crucible of... nothing at all! Opinions like this are often regurgitated counter charges offered by earlier Jew haters.

Example: Is it really unique thought to assign to the Jews as an indictment the very horror that befell the Jews in WWII? No, the Ayatollahs, imams, PLO, and numerous others have always both minimized the holocaust and elevated the appearance that the Jews themselves are guilt of such things. Is this really the intellectual company one feels good about keeping? This association does not mean its not true, or course. But it is not true. There is hardly a standard by which someone could sustain the charge that Israel does to arabs what was done to the Jews in WWII. But this is a key foundation for many who despise Jews, and is also used effectively in politics- repeat something often enough until it is accepted fact. Take from your opponent their narrative, claim it as your own, and beat them with the historical revision- (gaslighting, I believe).

In the end, I hardly believe all Palestinian supporters are vile or haters. I just think the weight of facts and history and truth do not lend to precise argument. This is why there is always a vortex that opens up with the anti Israeli crowd. No matter the effort to stick to reason it will always digress into personal attacks, collective indictment of Jews, or seizing from the Jews components of their collective history, negating it, and in turn charging them similarly with the horrors visited upon them. It is a real man who can stand strong in the face of overwhelming evidence they are incorrect, and recede or regroup their conviction. It is more likely the predictable human nature to flail about throwing even the kitchen sink. Though natural, they should be called on it.

Oh, was that little slight of hand unintentional? Referring to the "anti Israel persons" and going on to say their unoriginal opinions are regurgitations of earlier "Jew haters". Depending how you read "earlier" one might think you are calling the current batch of anti-Israel persons Jew haters? That's quite an accusation.

Is it ad hominem if you refer collectively to a group of men, or does the term only refer to arguing against one man?

Someone (CBR250?) recently posted 5 points that show there does seem to be some valid analogy with Israelis and Nazi. He readily and rightly qualified that the horrors in Nazi Germany were of far greater magnitude. I wonder if you read those?

No, it was not unintentional, and yes, there thoughts are their own. My point was not well crafted. I think there are certain buzzwords, cliches, or concepts associated with Israel and the local arab issue that are indeed ideas previously offered to the world both by Israel haters, and valid opponents of Israel. Yet some of these claims border on, IMO, the ludicrous. When someone coopts these thoughts and offers them as their own deliberations, I do consider that a regurgitation. We all do this somewhat. However, these issues involve concepts such as genocide and extermination programs, etc. I do think that is a reach.

My point does not constitute ad hominen. I make no qualitative judgement regarding the posters. In interpersonal communication and knowledge and mass media, etc., have many of us frequently offering up thoughts that argument our position, we maintain, but are hardly our own (anyone has ever written a paper for school encounters this). Its just in this instance, I think it deserves commentary because genocide is a particularly vile act committed against jews (not solely) and the effort to revise history and recast them in that very place is at best disingenuous. The most vocal of such charges happen to be such people as Iran offers to the world stage recently.

I do believe a person could pull together 5 coherent points of comparison, CBR250. Nevertheless, of all the players in this sad affair there is actually only one side with a declared policy of annihilation, and that is not the Jews. Therefore, the assertion that the Jews have such ambitions should first challenge that their opponents do not- and they do! (You may not realize but your arguments, and others, have seriously challenged a few positions of mine for revising). Please proceed with the understanding I don't try to deceive or be misleading; I am not. Sometimes I miss something or appear to avoid. I do not. I am just not as smart as I think I am).

Iran, and I'm guessing someone from Hamas has said things that have been interpreted to mean "a declared policy of annihilation ". Firstly, "interpreted to mean" is an important consideration. Ahmadinejad's words have been interpreted in different ways...which way the Western media choose to portray is obvious, but can you say correct? Similarly for Hamas' words. Now I'm not claiming nor suggesting that the Western media interpretation is wrong....just that it may be a biased interpretation. Likely a biased interpretation.

On the other side of the coin, Israel has never stated such a goal. That does not make the goal non-existent. Israel's nuclear capabilities have never been stated either, but we all know they exist. Israel's actions, when looked at since it's inception, suggest that indeed a goal of inhabiting much more than what was established in 1948 exists. Lets not even go into discussion of "Greater Israel" let alone the ideas underlying the ISIS conspiracy.

[Ulysses G.]

On the other side of the coin, Israel has never stated such a goal. That does not make the goal non-existent.

Israel is more than capable of carrying out the goal, yet they don't. Hamas and Iran are indulging in wishful thinking for the time being.