Israel PM vows further Gaza campaign

[Ulysses G.]

It looks like Israel may have lapsed on its founding charter too (Israel's Declaration of Independence)..

• Israel is to be a state of development for the benefit of all its inhabitants;

• Israel is to be a state based on the fundamentals of freedom, justice and peace, a state in which all the inhabitants will enjoy equality of social and political rights, along with freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture.

You are trying to compare Hamas' charter of genocide with Israel's Declaration of Independence calling for equal rights for all its citizens (which, by the way, does not include the West Bank and Gaza) and somehow you think that makes Israel look bad? Thanks for making our case for us.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[dexterm]

It looks like Israel may have lapsed on its founding charter too (Israel's Declaration of Independence)..

• Israel is to be a state of development for the benefit of all its inhabitants;

• Israel is to be a state based on the fundamentals of freedom, justice and peace, a state in which all the inhabitants will enjoy equality of social and political rights, along with freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture.

You are trying to compare Hamas' charter of genocide with Israel's Declaration of Independence calling for equal rights for all its citizens (which, by the way, does not include the West Bank and Gaza) and somehow you think that makes Israel look bad? Thanks for making our case for us.

Looks like they both failed. Hamas have not managed to commit genocide against Israel, while Israel has taken away the civil rights of the millions of Palestinians it has ethnically cleansed.

Perhaps you could console the former inhabitants of Huj (now renamed Sderot ..you know the place where the Israelis picnic and cheer each bomb dropped on Gazan schools) by sending them a copy of Israel's Declaration of Independence. They helped the Jewish Haganah to hide from the British, and the thanks they got was to be expelled to the Gaza Strip.

"The suffering of Sderot: how its true inhabitants were wiped from Israel's maps and memories

The inhabitants of Huj were all Palestinian Arab Muslims and, irony of ironies, they got on well with the Jews of Palestine.

Huj’s day of destiny came on 31 May 1948, when the Israeli Negev Brigade’s 7th Battalion, facing an advancing Egyptian army, arrived in the village. In Benny Morris’s words, “the brigade expelled the villagers of Huj … to the Gaza Strip”.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/the-suffering-of-sderot-how-its-true-inhabitants-were-wiped-from-israels-maps-and-memories-8348734.html

Edited August 26, 2014 by dexterm

[Ulysses G.]

"Millions"? Another giant fib. Less than 10,000 Palestinians have been killed since 2000 and most of those were grown men. Stop the terrorism and Israel will stop striking back.

[dexterm]

"Millions"? Another giant fib. Less than 10,000 Palestinians have been killed since 2000 and most of those were grown men. Stop the terrorism and Israel will stop striking back.

You're cherry picking your dates again UG.

478 innocent children who have done no harm to anyone ..dead.

https://www.unicef.org.nz/Statement-on-latest-deaths-of-children-in-Israel-and-Gaza

In the war on terror the Terrorist State of Israel appears to be winning.

Edited August 26, 2014 by dexterm

[Scott]

A post violating fair use policy has been deleted.

[Johpa]

Once Israel allows Palestine to live in a modern, civil world then the Palestinians will act modern and civil.

You should have been living in Israel in the early 1970s when travel through the West Bank was unrestricted and when both young Israelis and young Palestinians would share coffee in the old Petra Cafe inside the old city walls of Jerusalem and talk politics without violence or hatred. As a westerner, I had no problems sleeping in Arab hotels in East Jerusalem, sometimes even sleeping in Arab hostels within the old city. But Arafat, the egotistical blunderbuss was not happy with peace and the right wing religious groups in Israel, the Gush Emunim folks, were not content with pre-1967 borders, and civility went out the window and across the River Styx in a hand basket. Such times are now forgotten except for a few of us over 60 curmudgeons.

Today there is no longer free travel, there is the wall of failure built as a last solution to the entry of suicide bombers from the West Bank. But today the West Bank is relatively modern and civil. Today's problems are all started by Hamas in Gaza. Only when the people of Gaza decide to replace Hamas will any semblance of civility return. I am not optimistic.

[dexterm]

Once Israel allows Palestine to live in a modern, civil world then the Palestinians will act modern and civil.

You should have been living in Israel in the early 1970s when travel through the West Bank was unrestricted and when both young Israelis and young Palestinians would share coffee in the old Petra Cafe inside the old city walls of Jerusalem and talk politics without violence or hatred. As a westerner, I had no problems sleeping in Arab hotels in East Jerusalem, sometimes even sleeping in Arab hostels within the old city. But Arafat, the egotistical blunderbuss was not happy with peace and the right wing religious groups in Israel, the Gush Emunim folks, were not content with pre-1967 borders, and civility went out the window and across the River Styx in a hand basket. Such times are now forgotten except for a few of us over 60 curmudgeons.

Today there is no longer free travel, there is the wall of failure built as a last solution to the entry of suicide bombers from the West Bank. But today the West Bank is relatively modern and civil. Today's problems are all started by Hamas in Gaza. Only when the people of Gaza decide to replace Hamas will any semblance of civility return. I am not optimistic.

More chance that the people of the West bank will replace Fatah with a Hamas type regime.

The winds of Jihad are blowing.

Maybe Israel should ease off on the bellows then, and gradually lift the blockade of Gaza in return for an indefinite truce offered by Hamas.

[arjunadawn]

Everyone knows neither side will ever enter talks with no preconditions.

It's the only way to enter talks. While both sides are talking unconditionally, at least no-one is getting killed.

Hello Dexterm. The thoughts regarding "talks" really need to be evaluated in the light of "Taqiyya." This poison pill underlies all treaties, agreements and arrangements that muslims enter into with non-muslims. To avoid consideration of this one risks everything. In the case of Israel- everything! Annihilation. Taqiyya is basically lying in order to further enhance your position, pause to re-consolidate forces, or feign action to mislead an infidel. This practice is not arcane or ancient. It is a fundamental tenet governing the lives of mulsims today, especially nation state players. Therefore, when entering into any talks its nearly impossible to enter with genuine good faith. There is simply no mandate, indeed, no authority for muslims to enter into treaties in good faith. Yes, there are some examples, like Egypt, but those that have such arrangements or treaties do so at great risk, and without koranic authority- it can be argued. It would be dangerous to savor the lack of killing during talks only to be enabling your own genocide later.

[Choctastic]

Saleh al-Arouri is suspect. 15 years in Israeli prison and allowed to move around freely in Turkey. Where is the evidence?

Coming back to the continuation of the bombing campaign in Gaza. The pretexts are 'rockets' and 'tunnels' and 'Hamas' but as one Israeli commentator put it... 'it's a ritual'. How many times has Gaza been subjected to bombing?

The Palestinians, in Israeli officials’ own words

http://mondoweiss.net/2009/01/the-palestinians-in-israeli-officials-own-words.html

'...Israel is engaged in a long war of annihilation against Palestinian society. The objective is to destroy the Palestinian nation and drive it back into pre-modern groupings based on the tribe, the clan and the enclave. This is the last phase of the Zionist colonial mission, culminating in inaccessible townships, camps, villages, districts, all of them to be walled or fenced off, and patrolled by a powerful army'.

In 2012 UNICEF and the UNRWA estimated that Gaza's population would increase to 2.1 million by 2020 and become unsustainable... http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/gaza-2020-liveable-place

Netenyahu has said he will not allow a Palestinian State. It seems clear that Israel's 'solution' for Gaza is to accelerate that time-frame from years to months, (possibly weeks) by destroying everything that supports a civilized life.

[Ulysses G.]

Netenyahu has said he will not allow a Palestinian State.

No he hasn't. Yet another falsehood.

[7by7]

I am not 'whinging and whining' about your sources; merely pointing out that videos and articles produced by the propaganda department of the IDF or websites openly supportive of the Israeli government's policies are not unbiased!

I do not include all Jewish sources in that; indeed I, and others, have posted links to and quotes from Jewish sources which are critical of the Israeli government and the IDF.

But, of course, those who support the killing and maiming of innocent civilians by the IDF treat all such criticism, no matter from whom, as 'discredited' even though they have not actually been able to do so, and all outpourings of the IDF and Israeli government propaganda machines as the absolute truth!

Those of us who abhor the killing and maiming of civilians by both sides look closer at sources before accepting what they say.

[Scott]

Bickering, off-topic posts and replies have been deleted.

[Choctastic]

Netenyahu has said he will not allow a Palestinian State.

No he hasn't. Yet another falsehood.

Sure. We can see he's all for it.

'Netanyahu finally speaks his mind'

http://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-finally-speaks-his-mind/

'He made explicitly clear that he could never, ever, countenance a fully sovereign Palestinian state in the West Bank.'

'That sentence, quite simply, spells the end to the notion of Netanyahu consenting to the establishment of a Palestinian state.'

[Ulysses G.]

In other words. He did NOT say it. You are quoting someone else's SPIN.

There are a number of two-state peace plans that simultaneously grant Palestine an independent state while also meeting Israeli security concerns. This would most likely require at least some infringements on Palestinian sovereignty over security matters, for example by allowing a long-term mutli-national peacekeeping force in the West Bank, and a number of Palestinians are skeptical of any such deal on those grounds.
The point, though, is that it is within the realm of possibility to simultaneously end the Israeli occupation of the West Bank while also meeting Netanyahu's apparent demand for some continued Israeli security control.

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/14/5895567/netanyahu-this-is-why-israel-can-never-unilaterally-withdraw-from-the

[tpazzi]

It will be interesting to see if Netanyahu follows thru on his vow now as his poll numbers are beginning to slip:

http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/Poll-finds-huge-fall-in-PMs-approval-rating-372293

50% disapprove and 38% satisfied, - the lowest satisfaction level since Operation Protective Edge began.

[tpazzi]

It will be interesting to see if Netanyahu follows thru on his vow now as his poll numbers are beginning to slip:

http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/Poll-finds-huge-fall-in-PMs-approval-rating-372293

50% disapprove and 38% satisfied, - the lowest satisfaction level since Operation Protective Edge began.

The numbers are slipping because the Israeli public wanted an even more decisive response to Hamas.

...just to clarify.

That is certainly one possibility. If we will see Israel amp up the attacks as a result and the poll numbers rebound, then we'll know this was the case.

But you should prepare yourself, I suspect it will play out a bit differently.

[arjunadawn]

Netenyahu has said he will not allow a Palestinian State.

No he hasn't. Yet another falsehood.

Sure. We can see he's all for it.

'Netanyahu finally speaks his mind'

http://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-finally-speaks-his-mind/

'He made explicitly clear that he could never, ever, countenance a fully sovereign Palestinian state in the West Bank.'

'That sentence, quite simply, spells the end to the notion of Netanyahu consenting to the establishment of a Palestinian state.'

I also took note of the quote previously that stated the Israeli PM said xyz regarding a two state solution. I see the above quote also reflecting the quote of the author cited in the link, but not the PM. In the link the story is provided from the perspective of the author entirely. There are also a few places where the PM is actually quoted in quotations. Yet I did not see anywhere where there were specific quotes by the PM declaring what the author of this piece asserts; those quotations are absent entirely. I am not denying this piece out of hand but the absence of relevant quotes to support the byline is screaming for attention.

Basically, the PM stated some facts and opinion related to handing over Gaza previously, and the nature of the West Bank. However, the remainder of the byline about what the PM implied or said seems conjecture, and sensational overreach; it is inferred from the perspective of the author. The author conveniently notes the speech by the PM was in Hebrew, but he did cite some words of the PM in quotations, just not anything supporting the story in this link- no two state solution. If the PM said this categorically, this would indeed mark a new chapter in this terrible saga. If the PM made a suggestion regarding how he could not see a two state solution this is not a comment of Israeli policy as much as it is a review of facts on the ground from the Palestinian perspective; they are the ones who consistently cannot countenance a two state solution. I would be inclined to loan this more credibility if I could see supporting links or translations. The author suggests others present glossed over the PM's earth-shattering remarks, and disingenuously stated he was using Hebrew- of course he was using Hebrew, its Israel. Was the insertion that Hebrew was used supposed to suggest others may have missed this vital point? Are all the other journalists present dolts, or on the take, that such a watershed comment was overlooked? Hardly, this piece really does seem to be bias and a stretch. If there is other information, please do share. Thank you.

Edited August 26, 2014 by arjunadawn

[Choctastic]

In other words. He did NOT say it. You are quoting someone else's SPIN.

Take it easy. Criticizing a commentator's 'spin' by providing another commentator's 'spin' doesn't make the first commentator wrong. Especially when your link says '...there are valid and numerous reasons to doubt Netanyahu's commitment to reaching a two-state peace deal that would establish Palestine as an independent state'.

There is nothing new in what the Times writer is saying...

'Mr. Netanyahu’s father – himself an opponent of Palestinian statehood – told an Israeli news channel very soon thereafter that his son “doesn’t support [a Palestinian state]. He would support it under terms they would never accept.” The settlements expanded, the occupation continued, and the U.S. president backed off.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/gaza-shows-that-netanyahu-never-wanted-a-two-state-solution/article19694572/

I accept your criticism and will rephrase the statement...

Based on comments from those who have more credibility than pedants on a message board, Netenyahu has no intention of allowing an independent Palestinian State.

[Ulysses G.]

In other words. He did NOT say it. You are quoting someone else's SPIN.

Take it easy. Criticizing a commentator's 'spin' by providing another commentator's 'spin' doesn't make the first commentator wrong.

It does when you claim that Netanyahu said something that he NEVER SAID.

Netenyahu has said he will not allow a Palestinian State.

No he hasn't. Yet another falsehood.

[Johpa]

Hello Dexterm. The thoughts regarding "talks" really need to be evaluated in the light of "Taqiyya." This poison pill underlies all treaties, agreements and arrangements that muslims enter into with non-muslims.

That is not really the concept of Taqiyya, which is invoked when one might have to hide one beliefs, usually used when Shia needed to shield their beliefs from crusading Sunnis. It is more a metaphorical extension applying it to politics, but no doubt the metaphor can be applied to the world of Islam which takes a very long term view of strategies to achieve its goals fo extending Dar- Al-Islam. Part of the current conundrum is that every time the Israelis acquiesced to some Palestinian demands in hopes of peace, such as the withdrawal of Israeli settlements in Gaza, there was no long term corresponding response: the strategic aim of the elimination of Israel continued without interruption. That is why the broader peace movement in Israel, such as the campaign of the Four Mothers movement, have faltered and fallen by the wayside. There is no hope for peace here unless the Arabs decide to fully recognize Israel and abandon their political goal of a "right to return". Those who would advocate for such goals are abetting the continuation of war and the collateral damage that war inflicts upon the innocent of both sides. Compromise will have to be bilateral.

[arjunadawn]

Hello Dexterm. The thoughts regarding "talks" really need to be evaluated in the light of "Taqiyya." This poison pill underlies all treaties, agreements and arrangements that muslims enter into with non-muslims.

That is not really the concept of Taqiyya, which is invoked when one might have to hide one beliefs, usually used when Shia needed to shield their beliefs from crusading Sunnis. It is more a metaphorical extension applying it to politics, but no doubt the metaphor can be applied to the world of Islam which takes a very long term view of strategies to achieve its goals fo extending Dar- Al-Islam. Part of the current conundrum is that every time the Israelis acquiesced to some Palestinian demands in hopes of peace, such as the withdrawal of Israeli settlements in Gaza, there was no long term corresponding response: the strategic aim of the elimination of Israel continued without interruption. That is why the broader peace movement in Israel, such as the campaign of the Four Mothers movement, have faltered and fallen by the wayside. There is no hope for peace here unless the Arabs decide to fully recognize Israel and abandon their political goal of a "right to return". Those who would advocate for such goals are abetting the continuation of war and the collateral damage that war inflicts upon the innocent of both sides. Compromise will have to be bilateral.

I can agree with you, except one point. Taqiyya most definitely extends into the broad spectrum of the lives of Muslims. It's certainly not true that most will need to employ this. Yet many do and the framework is highly evolved jurisprudence condoning wide applications- when dealing with infidels, oppressors, treaties, indeed all things may be possible. The very essence of this doctrine reads dishonorable to a western mind; it does to me. Yet it is not to Muslims. In their worldview this is seen as a legitimate extension of the battle space, jihad.

You've great points above, though. Thank you.

[Morch]

Hamas is a freedom fighting organisation. As long as the Palistinians are oppressed and killed by the 1000's there will be the need for such an organisation. Netanyahu and his war mongering, racist, zionist regime know how to end this conflict but that is not in their personel interests.

Hamas aims to free the lot (Gaza Strip, West Bank, Israel), not just its own plot. Seeing how Hamas dealt with the Fatah

opposition when things got heated when it took control of the Gaza Strip, the way it treats dissent and its attitude toward

Israelis and Jews - freedom is not exactly the main dish on the menu.

The very conceptual framework of Islam rails against "freedom."

In their country what does it have to do with outsiders ?

So, following this logic IS got every right to do as it wishes within the area it calls its own?

Hamas, on the last time elections were held, won about half the votes. Does this give Hamas the right to force its

beliefs and world view on all of the people of the Gaza Strip? On all of the Palestinians (including the West Bank)?

And, in case it gets its wish - upon all Israelis as well? (Jews, Muslim and Christians alike).

Seeing that the Christian community in Gaza is a thing of the past, what does Hamas's version of "freedom" mean

for non-Muslims? And what does it mean for Muslims holding practicing less than orthodox Islam?

[Morch]

Hamas is a freedom fighting organisation. As long as the Palistinians are oppressed and killed by the 1000's there will be the need for such an organisation. Netanyahu and his war mongering, racist, zionist regime know how to end this conflict but that is not in their personel interests.

Hamas aims to free the lot (Gaza Strip, West Bank, Israel), not just its own plot. Seeing how Hamas dealt with the Fatah opposition when things got heated when it took control of the Gaza Strip, the way it treats dissent and its attitude toward Israelis and Jews - freedom is not exactly the main dish on the menu.

Israeli secret intelligence was well aware of the growing importancy of Mujama al Islamya and Hamas in Gaza.

In fact, Israel was looking a long time for an alternitive to radical Palestinian PLO (secular nationalists).

Sheikh Yassin and his followers had a long term perspective whose dangers were not understood by Israel at the time.

Radical Hamas ( Islamists) was not at all stopped by Israel. In contrary...

If your point was that Israel often miscalculates (as do other countries, especially when it comes to the Middle East),

then we are agreed. Not that this matters much at this point - objectively, Hamas coming on top does not bode well

for either Israelis or Palestinians.

[Morch]

Hamas aims to free the lot (Gaza Strip, West Bank, Israel), not just its own plot. Seeing how Hamas dealt with the Fatah

opposition when things got heated when it took control of the Gaza Strip, the way it treats dissent and its attitude toward

Israelis and Jews - freedom is not exactly the main dish on the menu.

Collaborating with the enemy carries the death penalty in a lot of countries.

Right....were the PA people thrown off buildings in Gaza collaborating with the "enemy"? Were the Christians of Gaza

collaborating with the "enemy"? A lot of countries got some form of due process which involves more than fingerpointing

and summary execution in the street.

Once Israel allows Palestine to live in a modern, civil world then the Palestinians will act modern and civil.

That's a very optimistic view.

I do notice that you managed to replace "Hamas" with "Palestinians", though.

[Morch]

Once Israel allows Palestine to live in a modern, civil world then the Palestinians will act modern and civil.

You should have been living in Israel in the early 1970s when travel through the West Bank was unrestricted and when both young Israelis and young Palestinians would share coffee in the old Petra Cafe inside the old city walls of Jerusalem and talk politics without violence or hatred. As a westerner, I had no problems sleeping in Arab hotels in East Jerusalem, sometimes even sleeping in Arab hostels within the old city. But Arafat, the egotistical blunderbuss was not happy with peace and the right wing religious groups in Israel, the Gush Emunim folks, were not content with pre-1967 borders, and civility went out the window and across the River Styx in a hand basket. Such times are now forgotten except for a few of us over 60 curmudgeons.

Today there is no longer free travel, there is the wall of failure built as a last solution to the entry of suicide bombers from the West Bank. But today the West Bank is relatively modern and civil. Today's problems are all started by Hamas in Gaza. Only when the people of Gaza decide to replace Hamas will any semblance of civility return. I am not optimistic.

More chance that the people of the West bank will replace Fatah with a Hamas type regime.

The winds of Jihad are blowing.

Maybe Israel should ease off on the bellows then, and gradually lift the blockade of Gaza in return for an indefinite truce offered by Hamas.

Maybe you should stop presenting incorrect information as concrete offers. Hamas never offered indefinite truce just in return for removal of the blockade. There were other preconditions attached (such as going back to the 1967 lines and allowing the Right of Return). The truce which was offered did not amount to either peace nor recognition of Israel.

[Morch]

No. Nothing against "JEWS". Just Israel.

WRONG. The Hamas Charter clearly calls for genocide against JEWS.

"The Day of Judgment will not come until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say, 'O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him." [Article 7]

Charters get outdated. Hamas have said as such. It looks like Israel may have lapsed on its founding charter too (Israel's Declaration of Independence)..

• Israel is to be a state of development for the benefit of all its inhabitants;

• Israel is to be a state based on the fundamentals of freedom, justice and peace, a state in which all the inhabitants will enjoy equality of social and political rights, along with freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture.

...yeah, tell that to Israeli Arabs, Palestinian ethnically cleansed refugees and the occupied inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/decind.html

Shalom

Bringing up Israel's Deceleration of Independence would be relevant if and when Israel annexes the West Bank and

the Gaza Strip. As it stands these are not part of Israel and the Palestinians do not fall under the term "inhabitants".

If one wished to (rightly) bash Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, citing international agreements and conventions

would be more appropriate. Obviously, this would be a less sensational (if misguided and misleading) comparison.

The Hamas Charter may or may not be outdated, it was never updated, though. Leaders routinely make statements

which conform with its ideals.

[dexterm]

Morch,

You are playing with semantics again. Moshe Dayan was well aware of the civil rights that Zionists had taken away from its Palestinian inhabitants.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."

-- Moshe Dayan, April 1969, Ha'aretz; quoted in Edward Said, 'Zionism from the Standpoint of Its Victims', Social Text, Volume 1, 1979, 7-58."

http://monabaker.com/quotes.htm

It would be very interesting indeed to know where Israel's borders actually are...they've been advancing them for almost 70 years now.

Maybe this is a watershed moment... I hope so.

Hamas leader Khaled Mishal described the Hamas charter "a piece of history and no longer relevant"

"We accept a state with the 1967 borders but Israel doesn't. That makes a solution difficult to achieve"

Hamas number two, Mousa Abu Marzouk, noted that "the charter is not the Quran. It can be amended."

It is also worth noting that the late Israeli Defence Minister Ezer Weizman once stood in front of his Likud Party emblem that showed Jordan as part of Israel and said with regard to the charter of the Palestine Liberation Organization that at the time called for Israel's demise: "We can dream, so can they."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-dorsey/behind-the-gaza-ceasefire_b_5698683.html

[Ulysses G.]

You are playing with semantics again. Moshe Dayan was well aware of the civil rights that Zionists had taken away from its Palestinian inhabitants.

Another of your FAKE QUOTES from a website devoted to them. This has been pointed out to you repeatedly.

In response to a student's question suggesting that Israel adopt a policy of punishing Arabs who commit crimes in the West Bank by deportation to Jordan, Dayan said that he is strongly opposed to this idea and insisted that the answer to the longstanding Arab-Israeli problem is to learn to live together with Arab neighbors. This is the real quote:

"We came to a region of land that was inhabited by Arabs, and we set up a Jewish state. In a considerable number of places, we purchased the land from Arabs and set up Jewish villages where there had once been Arab villages. You don't even know the names [of the previous Arab villages] and I don't blame you, because those geography books aren't around anymore. Not only the books, the villages aren't around. Nahalal was established in the place of Mahalul, and Gvat was established in the place of Jibta, Sarid in the place of Huneifis and Kfar Yehoshua in the place of Tel Shaman. There isn't any place that was established in an area where there had not at one time been an Arab settlement."

Dayan's conclusion was that the solution to the Arab-Israeli problem is to learn to coexist with them. In the misquote, the key phrase "we purchased the land from Arabs" is omitted, and thus Dayan's meaning is reversed. Dayan was not saying that Arabs were dispossessed. On the contrary, he was indicating that though Arabs sold the land of their own free will, given their presence in the region, the Israeli goal is to live peacefully together with them.

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_article=371&x_context=7

Edited August 27, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Morch]

It looks like Israel may have lapsed on its founding charter too (Israel's Declaration of Independence)..

• Israel is to be a state of development for the benefit of all its inhabitants;

• Israel is to be a state based on the fundamentals of freedom, justice and peace, a state in which all the inhabitants will enjoy equality of social and political rights, along with freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture.

You are trying to compare Hamas' charter of genocide with Israel's Declaration of Independence calling for equal rights for all its citizens (which, by the way, does not include the West Bank and Gaza) and somehow you think that makes Israel look bad? Thanks for making our case for us.

Looks like they both failed. Hamas have not managed to commit genocide against Israel, while Israel has taken away the civil rights of the millions of Palestinians it has ethnically cleansed.

Perhaps you could console the former inhabitants of Huj (now renamed Sderot ..you know the place where the Israelis picnic and cheer each bomb dropped on Gazan schools) by sending them a copy of Israel's Declaration of Independence. They helped the Jewish Haganah to hide from the British, and the thanks they got was to be expelled to the Gaza Strip.

"The suffering of Sderot: how its true inhabitants were wiped from Israel's maps and memories

The inhabitants of Huj were all Palestinian Arab Muslims and, irony of ironies, they got on well with the Jews of Palestine.

Huj’s day of destiny came on 31 May 1948, when the Israeli Negev Brigade’s 7th Battalion, facing an advancing Egyptian army, arrived in the village. In Benny Morris’s words, “the brigade expelled the villagers of Huj … to the Gaza Strip”.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/the-suffering-of-sderot-how-its-true-inhabitants-were-wiped-from-israels-maps-and-memories-8348734.html

"millions of Palestinians it has ethnically cleansed."

The same penchant for making sensational hyperbole statements is alive and well.

Fisk again, dear me. Think this example was addressed in one of the earlier topics. Lets start of by saying that the way the people of Huj were treated was a shame. Can be claimed that stuff like that happens during wartime, and that's true enough. Still doesn't make it right nor provides a good answer as to why they weren't allowed back.

Now, the thing is Fisk does his best to identify nowadays Sderot with Huj, as this makes a better story. He does, however say that Sderot was built on lands which belonged to another nearby Arab village, Najd. Huj's lands are mostly outside of Sderot city limits. That is not to say that Najd fared better than Huj, but lacks some of the dramatic effect, and thus accuracy, as is often the case with Fisk, was dropped in favor of the story. Quite typically of Fisk's columns, the answer of a single resident of Sderot is taken as a general point of view. No mention is made of the circumstances under which this person arrived to Israel - guess pointing out that similar things were experienced by Jews in the Middle East isn't ironic enough for Fisk's taste.

To make things a bit more interesting, as they often are in this area - Huj was around since 1820 or so, and was a creation of the Ottoman empire. Free land was offered as means to encourage migration from Gaza.

[chuckd]

CNN is reporting there has been a truce agreed to between Israel and Hamas. Details are available on CNN International.