New road safety video released by UK police

[andreandre]

Why is that the car is almost always at fault when involved in an accident with a bike?

The excessive bike speed in the video is calmly dismissed as hardy relevant as if the car driver should have known the tiny dot of a motorbike would be barreling down the road at almost 100mph instead of driving within the legal speed and the limitations of his own capabilities.

The car driver has a reasonable expectation that the bike rider is within the speed limit and be aware of other traffic on the road.

The bike rider should have been aware that there was a possibility of the car making the maneuver to cross the road.

I am sorry for the death of yet another rider but he should have been within the speed limit and aware the road ahead.

Why is that the car is almost always at fault when involved in an accident with a bike?

Because unfortunately,statistically this is fact!

Somewhere around 66% of car /bike crashes are caused by the car turning directly in front of the bike [as in this case].

You are correct in what you say also regarding the behaviour of a lot of riders,ie as in this case also , the rider contributed to his own demise, which is why i said in earlier post that both were to blame.

[RubberSideDown]

We're not talking about a scooter- this is the bike the guy was riding (an FJR1300)- it's way bigger than '1/10th of the frontal area of a car' (it weighs well over 600lbs and has close to 50% of the frontal area of the car it hit) and its headlights are always on (I would think that every rider knows that headlights on motorcycles haven't been able to be turned off for years- it's only older bikes that can do it, and certainly not the bike in the video)- if you're driving a car and are facing oncoming traffic preparing to turn across an otherwise empty road, you have no excuse for not seeing this bike (and the driver in question admitted to not only not seeing the bike, but also not seeing the car behind it- this driver turned without looking- considering how close he was to the bike when he pulled out, he would have likely caused an accident even if the bike was going the speed limit).

While it's certainly true the biker bore much of the responsibility for what happened, absolving the driver simply because the bike was speeding is ridiculous (which the law agrees with considering the comments of the police and the outcome of the trial).

It's a fact that motorcyclists have to ride defensively- this rider screwed up- the driver screwed up as well, and, as usual, the rider came out the worse for it (and paid the ultimate price in this case). Had the rider been going slower he would probably still be alive (though an accident might still have occurred considering the driver's actions)- if the driver had been doing his due diligence and been looking for oncoming traffic, the rider would definitely still be alive. There was fault on both sides. There's no argument that being right is no comfort to you or your family if you're dead, but it should still be possible to look at the situation in an objective manner beyond a snap judgment of 'The bike was speeding so he was definitely 100% wrong'.

Edited September 7, 2014 by RubberSideDown

[wantan]

The rider is dead. Excuse, no excuse, who is to blame or what was the outcome of a trial doesnt really matter here.

This is what the mother of the dead rider said:

His parents Brenda and Ken Holmes want to encourage other motorcyclists to be more careful on the roads.

Brenda said: "I want to be involved in this campaign because I feel something positive can come out of his loss.

“If we can prevent one accident; one family going through what we have been through then David would not have died in vain. I know he rode fast that day, he loved speed but he also loved life.

Car drivers will always make mistakes from time to time. And motorcyclists should always be aware of this fact and take good care of themselves. I guess this is what the mother wanted to say.

Edited September 7, 2014 by wantan

[Gweiloman]

The driver is completely at fault, for turning in front of an oncoming vehicle. That is not to say that the rider is completely absolved of any blame. He was travelling way too fast for the road conditions (ie intersection ahead). Depending on the time of day and direction of travel, a setting sun may also have interfered with the driver's vision.

Most riders, myself included, regardless of whether riding a Honda Wave or a big bike, like to gas it whenever possible and whenever we feel that it is safe to do so. It depends on the individual riders assessment of the situation and of the risks involved. Some may call this irresponsible behaviour but it is a fact of life. Everyone does irresponsible things in their life at one time or another, it's not exclusive to big bike riders.

@AllanB

It seems from many of the comments from so called "serious bikers" that you don't seem to care that you cannot be seen, feeling that right is right, resulting in some cases of being dead right.

This observation cannot be further from the truth, even if you tried. No "serious biker" will knowingly or consciously ride the way you described, with the ultimate result that you predicted. Every serious rider rides as safely as they feel they should - as I said above, it's up to their individual assessment of the situation and sadly, in this case, the rider in question make a fatal mistake. The only time a biker will ride reckless (knowingly) is when they have a death wish.

[andreandre]

The rider is dead. Excuse, no excuse, who is to blame or what was the outcome of a trial doesnt really matter here.

This is what the mother of the dead rider said:

His parents Brenda and Ken Holmes want to encourage other motorcyclists to be more careful on the roads.

Brenda said: "I want to be involved in this campaign because I feel something positive can come out of his loss.

“If we can prevent one accident; one family going through what we have been through then David would not have died in vain. I know he rode fast that day, he loved speed but he also loved life.

Car drivers will always make mistakes from time to time. And motorcyclists should always be aware of this fact and take good care of themselves. I guess this is what the mother wanted to say.

Proves once again that no matter how much you want to 'be careful' ie, all the best safety gear, lights on,do what you think is 'right' regards riding ,when you are in the wrong place at the wrong time, this is the result.

Sad but very true that an unknown person can snuff your life out in less time than the blink of an eye simply because you were there at the same place at same time as they were.[they ,usually being an inattentive car driver]

[AllanB]

The driver is completely at fault, for turning in front of an oncoming vehicle. That is not to say that the rider is completely absolved of any blame. He was travelling way too fast for the road conditions (ie intersection ahead). Depending on the time of day and direction of travel, a setting sun may also have interfered with the driver's vision.

Most riders, myself included, regardless of whether riding a Honda Wave or a big bike, like to gas it whenever possible and whenever we feel that it is safe to do so. It depends on the individual riders assessment of the situation and of the risks involved. Some may call this irresponsible behaviour but it is a fact of life. Everyone does irresponsible things in their life at one time or another, it's not exclusive to big bike riders.

@AllanB

It seems from many of the comments from so called "serious bikers" that you don't seem to care that you cannot be seen, feeling that right is right, resulting in some cases of being dead right.

This observation cannot be further from the truth, even if you tried. No "serious biker" will knowingly or consciously ride the way you described, with the ultimate result that you predicted. Every serious rider rides as safely as they feel they should - as I said above, it's up to their individual assessment of the situation and sadly, in this case, the rider in question make a fatal mistake. The only time a biker will ride reckless (knowingly) is when they have a death wish.

Only a fool would ride a motorcycle through an A road junction at 100mph, with or without a vehicle waiting to cross. That is why his mother wants his actions published for other to see.... and learn.

If you can't see that, I fear the worst for you, so suggest you talk to your mum, show her the video and tell us what she thinks. I think I know the answer, mother know's best.

The video was not published to determine blame, it's too late for that.

[uptheos]

The speed limit on that road would be 60 mph max, probably 50 mph and the speed limits are there for a reason.

That being said the car driver certainly 'cuts' the turn, something we are taught not to do from day one.

A terrible tragedy for all concerned.

[andreandre]

It wasn't going to make much difference in this case, but anywhere i ride/rode i cover the brakes at all times...Do it all the time, every time, becomes 2nd nature after awhile.

He didn't and for a guy with supposedly a fair bit of experience, this is an indication IMO that he wasn't really on the ball..

If he had been at near the speed limit and riding 'brake ready', i'm sure he would be alive today..

[Gweiloman]

The rider is dead. Excuse, no excuse, who is to blame or what was the outcome of a trial doesnt really matter here.

This is what the mother of the dead rider said:

His parents Brenda and Ken Holmes want to encourage other motorcyclists to be more careful on the roads.

Brenda said: "I want to be involved in this campaign because I feel something positive can come out of his loss.

“If we can prevent one accident; one family going through what we have been through then David would not have died in vain. I know he rode fast that day, he loved speed but he also loved life.

Car drivers will always make mistakes from time to time. And motorcyclists should always be aware of this fact and take good care of themselves. I guess this is what the mother wanted to say.

Proves once again that no matter how much you want to 'be careful' ie, all the best safety gear, lights on,do what you think is 'right' regards riding ,when you are in the wrong place at the wrong time, this is the result.

Sad but very true that an unknown person can snuff your life out in less time than the blink of an eye simply because you were there at the same place at same time as they were.[they ,usually being an inattentive car driver]

Correct me if I'm wrong but what you seem to be implying is that safety gear is a waste of time and money. You seem to be saying that if your number's up, then it's up and therefore, wearing a helmet or other safety gear is superfluous. That can't be right because your other posts suggest that you're an experienced and accomplished rider and it would then go without saying that safety gear is imperative, especially when riding big bikes at speed.

Tell me that my interpretation is wrong, please..............

[Gweiloman]

The driver is completely at fault, for turning in front of an oncoming vehicle. That is not to say that the rider is completely absolved of any blame. He was travelling way too fast for the road conditions (ie intersection ahead). Depending on the time of day and direction of travel, a setting sun may also have interfered with the driver's vision.

Most riders, myself included, regardless of whether riding a Honda Wave or a big bike, like to gas it whenever possible and whenever we feel that it is safe to do so. It depends on the individual riders assessment of the situation and of the risks involved. Some may call this irresponsible behaviour but it is a fact of life. Everyone does irresponsible things in their life at one time or another, it's not exclusive to big bike riders.

@AllanB

It seems from many of the comments from so called "serious bikers" that you don't seem to care that you cannot be seen, feeling that right is right, resulting in some cases of being dead right.

This observation cannot be further from the truth, even if you tried. No "serious biker" will knowingly or consciously ride the way you described, with the ultimate result that you predicted. Every serious rider rides as safely as they feel they should - as I said above, it's up to their individual assessment of the situation and sadly, in this case, the rider in question make a fatal mistake. The only time a biker will ride reckless (knowingly) is when they have a death wish.

Only a fool would ride a motorcycle through an A road junction at 100mph, with or without a vehicle waiting to cross. That is why his mother wants his actions published for other to see.... and learn.

If you can't see that, I fear the worst for you, so suggest you talk to your mum, show her the video and tell us what she thinks. I think I know the answer, mother know's best.

The video was not published to determine blame, it's too late for that.

I agree, only a fool would ride a motorcycle blah blah blah as you wrote above.

Where in my post did I contend that he was not a fool to be riding so fast?

The video was published to make car drivers to be more aware, not to advise motorcyclists to slow down. It has nothing to do with blame. Blame is a juvenile notion. The driver was at fault, for turning into the path of an oncoming vehicle. The speed of travel of the oncoming vehicle is irrelevant. As a responsible, safe and competent driver, you are expected to be be able to determine the speed of an oncoming vehicle. If you are unable to do so, then you are a hazard and should not be driving on the roads. You cannot see an oncoming vehicle and assume that they are travelling within the legal limit and base your decision on this assumption. If you are a capable and competent driver, you should be able to determine the closing speed of oncoming vehicles and you should know if you can make the turn safely or not. When in doubt, you should not turn. It's as simple as that.

So I shall say it once again. The fault lies completely with the driver. The rider should not have been travelling at the speed that he was, that was irresponsible of him and he paid for his poor judgement and assessment of the traffic conditions with his life. But, the party at fault is the driver, simple as that. If you, as a driver, is not able to determine if it's safe to make the turn, then you should be off the roads.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Gweiloman

[RubberSideDown]

The driver is completely at fault, for turning in front of an oncoming vehicle. That is not to say that the rider is completely absolved of any blame. He was travelling way too fast for the road conditions (ie intersection ahead). Depending on the time of day and direction of travel, a setting sun may also have interfered with the driver's vision.

Most riders, myself included, regardless of whether riding a Honda Wave or a big bike, like to gas it whenever possible and whenever we feel that it is safe to do so. It depends on the individual riders assessment of the situation and of the risks involved. Some may call this irresponsible behaviour but it is a fact of life. Everyone does irresponsible things in their life at one time or another, it's not exclusive to big bike riders.

@AllanB

It seems from many of the comments from so called "serious bikers" that you don't seem to care that you cannot be seen, feeling that right is right, resulting in some cases of being dead right.

This observation cannot be further from the truth, even if you tried. No "serious biker" will knowingly or consciously ride the way you described, with the ultimate result that you predicted. Every serious rider rides as safely as they feel they should - as I said above, it's up to their individual assessment of the situation and sadly, in this case, the rider in question make a fatal mistake. The only time a biker will ride reckless (knowingly) is when they have a death wish.

Only a fool would ride a motorcycle through an A road junction at 100mph, with or without a vehicle waiting to cross. That is why his mother wants his actions published for other to see.... and learn.

If you can't see that, I fear the worst for you, so suggest you talk to your mum, show her the video and tell us what she thinks. I think I know the answer, mother know's best.

The video was not published to determine blame, it's too late for that.

Try reading one of the dozens of articles that show the mother's comments- her purpose in releasing the video is to educate BOTH riders and drivers, and she's a big advocate of the 'Think Bike' campaign in the UK, which is squarely aimed at drivers, and she acknowledges the mistakes of both her son and the driver:

His mother Brenda Holmes, a retired nurse who lives in North Walsham, Norfolk, said she hoped that by telling the story, she could help prevent another family going through the heartache they continue to experience.

She said: "If we can prevent one accident; one family going through what we have been through then David would not have died in vain.

"I know he rode fast that day, he loved speed but he also loved life.

"This hasn't been an easy thing to do but I just hope that somebody benefits from the warning; that people slow down and take time to look for bikes.

"I'm not a perfect driver, I've done silly things sometimes and I've been lucky to get away with them, David wasn't lucky, the driver wasn't lucky."

It's interesting that you have a problem with others ascribing some of the blame to the driver as you purport the video's purpose isn't to point fingers, yet you have twice said it was 100% the rider's fault and have expressed sympathy for the driver who was found to be legally liable for the incident. I've never before seen a 'wannabe motorcyclist' with such contempt for other riders.

Harping on the color of gear (which was irrelevant in this case as the bike was facing the car with it's headlights on, the brightness of which is way more noticeable than any type of gear) is also pointless in the face of this particular incident as it had no bearing on what happened.

I would think that someone as safety-conscious as yourself would equip himself with better gear than you've been riding with during the time you've been on the road, and that you would choose a bike with brakes that are better than the ones on your 30-year-old Honda, which was built down to a low level when it was first manufactured- even at a sedate 80kph your braking distance will be considerably beyond that of a more modern bike. You constantly cast stones at the actions of others, but you seem unable to recognize your own shortcomings as a rider.

I haven't seen many comments from fellow riders who support the way this motorcyclist was riding in the video- they're certainly biased toward those on their 'team', but at least they're open-minded enough to see all the factors that caused this accident.

[ll2]

what are we still discussing here?

A driver killed a rider by not looking to the incoming lane/road - he confessed that! - and suddenly turned in front of the bike.

Yes, rider was fast not 90 kph - 100 kph but 156 kph and c'mon, on a 1300 cc bike, you see 160 kph in 5 seconds so it is not a rocket high speed!

Riders biggest mistake was not slowing down when he sees the intersection and whoever we blame, as bikers we are always wrong in an accident even if we have no fault as we are the ones paying the toll with our lives or body parts and if we are lucky only bike parts. I see and intersection or u turn, i slow down, you have to.

and checking the video and even if the rider was going 90 kph, it looks like accident is still unavoidable.

In law, the person causes a death is responsible and here it is clearly the car by turning to the incoming lane out of the blue.

So, even if the rider lets say was drunk at another incident similar to this, still it is the car taking the life of a rider and become responsible by turning incoming lane suddenly without looking.

Edited September 8, 2014 by ll2

[andreandre]

Another look..the damage to both the bike and the car shows the real impact damage...

Edited September 8, 2014 by andreandre

[andreandre]

^^^^^^

Interesting point from the reporter about1.07 "" The rider was travelling down the hill""at 97 MPH

At that speed ,looking up the road from the impact point, it is very doubtful that the bike was in view for more than a second or two..explains as to a why the driver didn't see the bike IMO

The driver could well have looked up the road before turning and seen nothing, by the time the driver was across the opposite lane this guy has suddenly appeared and ..end of

Makes perfect sense.

To say that the driver was totally at fault or even as someone suggested 110% is simply ridiculous..TV armchair CSI crap..

If the rider had been riding at or near the speed limit this crash simply would not have taken place..the car would have turned before he was anywhere near it, if fact, by the time he got to the intersection, the car would have been long gone.

It is still an undeniable fact tho' that cars very frequently do turn in front of motorcycles [and other cars!!] but in this case the rider added to it big time.

The guy was pushing his luck big time[as we all do] and sadly has paid the ultimate price for his enjoyment.

Take a look at this google earth pic of the spot..quite a complex intersection, not just one road off it as i presumed initially.....to ride through that area at the speed he was doing [and totally unprepared for anything,in that he wasn't riding 'brake ready''] you can not, not put a large amount of blame on him..He added big time to his own demise.

Edited September 9, 2014 by andreandre

[MJP]

97 mph on an A-road and the poor bloody car driver gets the blame?

Get real.

[pokerkid]

It seems the biker is holding the handlebars with only 1 hand while passing a car at 97mph and approaching a busy intersection

Edited September 9, 2014 by pokerkid

[RubberSideDown]

^^^^

The bike would have been in view from the intersection as soon as it passed the car in its lane, which would have been for about five seconds (which is a long time in that scenario)- you can see this from the video. The road did have a slight incline, but it was hardly a 'hill' (again, this is clear from the video) and it did not affect visibility (again, you can see the intersection from the bike's POV on the video). Also note the '110% at fault' reference was directed at the rider, not the driver. If the driver would have turned in front the of a bike doing the speed limit of 60mph, it would still have been in the way of the bike- if the distance between the two vehicles had been the same when the turn was initiated, there would have been less than one second's difference- considering tbr bike hit the left front edge of the car, the extra time would have meant it would have hit the right rear edge.

There's fault on both sides, but I think the majority is on the driver as he failed to make sure the road was clear before turning, and he didn't misjudge the bike's speed but, rather, failed to see the bike at all. Even if the bike had been in view for only a couple of seconds, the driver was facing oncoming traffic- he should have seen the motorcycle- the police investigation (and the actual CSI team) also showed this to be the case.

Watch it again:

Edited September 9, 2014 by RubberSideDown

[MJP]

^^ The guy was doing near on 100mph, likely faster in places.

You know I drive a lot (safely too) in the UK and one things for sure, on A-roads the bikers just go utterly berserk, lunatic riding. Not the same on the motorways, you rarely see bikers speeding on the motorways but on the A-roads it's quite terrifying.

To blame this car driver and punish the guy even more is cruel. He'll be living with this man's death on his conscious for the rest of his life, even though in reality it wasn't his fault.

[RubberSideDown]

^

Well, even if others are speeding, you're not absolved of doing your due diligence as a driver, and that includes making sure the road is clear before you make your turn. The police and court disagree with your opinion of the driver's culpability. I think it's pretty obvious there was fault on both sides. I would imagine if you're a safe driver, you would have checked the oncoming lane before initiating your turn (and I'm sure you wouldn't have improperly cut the turn like the driver in question).

Edited September 9, 2014 by RubberSideDown

[MJP]

^

Well, even if others are speeding, you're not absolved of doing your due diligence as a driver, and that includes making sure the road is clear before you make your turn. The police and court disagrees with your opinion of the driver's culpability. I think it's pretty obvious there was fault on both sides.

If the biker had been travelling at the speed limit then yes. But no. It's about time these lunatics on these over-powered machines slowed down. Too easy to endlessly blame car and truck drivers, too many bikers don't ride with due diligence.

Sorry the kid died but it was his own fault.

[RubberSideDown]

^

Before crossing a 60mph road, a driver has to make sure it's clear for at least a couple hundred meters (and the bike would have been in view well before he initiated his turn)- this driver had plenty of time to see the bike, but (by his own admission) he never did- he bears much of the responsibility for this accident. This happens to riders all the time (regardless of speed)- drivers usually don't take proper notice of them. While the rider should have been riding with this in mind, the driver had the responsibility to look for other vehicles, and he didn't see them (he also admitted to not seeing the car that was behind the bike).

It's also easy to blame the rider due to his speed (which was obviously excessive- he certainly contributed to his own demise), but to say he was 100% at fault solely due to it is incorrect and a narrow way of looking at what happened, IMHO, and this is supported by the opinion of police investigators, whose job it is to apportion responsibility in this sort of situation.

Edited September 9, 2014 by RubberSideDown

[MJP]

^^ 100% at fault. He was doing near double the speed limit. This is about reckless speed and nothing else.

Sorry but it is. If road users won't take care of themselves by abiding by the road laws how is everyone else expected and even meant to take care of them?

[RubberSideDown]

^

Sorry, but you're wrong- all road users have to be aware of potential hazards (including speeders) and react appropriately- if you're driving with the assumption that everyone is obeying the law and driving defensively, you're going to find yourself in an accident sooner than later. Making sure the road is clear before turning across it is one of the first things we're taught as fledgling drivers- you seem unwilling to recognize that this driver broke the rules of safe driving (as did the rider).

Why do you think the police found the driver to be at fault as well as the rider? It was ruled that the turn was unsafe and should not have been attempted.

In any case, this argument is getting repetitive- riders should drive at appropriate speeds, and drivers need to look out for them (regardless of their speed- as any long-time rider could tell you, we have cars pulling out in front of us all the time even when we're riding at or under the speed limit- drivers simply don't look for us or somehow don't recognize bikes and view them with the same respect as other cars)- hopefully this incident and the 'Think Bike' campaign will raise awareness for both groups.

Edited September 9, 2014 by RubberSideDown

[MJP]

^^ I disagree with you. Completely on this. It's simply unreasonable and defies any sort of logic.

[RubberSideDown]

^

Really? It's illogical that cars should make sure the road is clear (of any vehicles, including people possibly riding well above the limit, which isn't uncommon) before turning? OK...

I'm not disagreeing that the rider was riding stupidly, but the driver screwed up as well- I would think that's obvious, but I guess not.

[MJP]

^^ Really? You me to look after you even if you're not looking after yourself?

[RubberSideDown]

^^ Really? You me to look after you even if you're not looking after yourself?

It's your responsibility as someone who holds a license to operate any type of vehicle to- in a sense- 'look after others'. You don't ride in a bubble, but, rather, you're sharing the road with a fair percentage of people riding/driving unsafely. By keeping yourself safe, you're creating a safer environment for all road users, even the ones who are at greater risk of being involved in an accident.

What does 'driving defensively' mean? It means driving in a way that not only reduces your own risk, but reduces the risk to others as well. There are dummies in the road- they're speeding, they're texting, they're drunk- it's your job as a safe driver to recognize them and lower the risk they pose by doing whatever you can to avoid them- I do this all the time whether I'm in my car or on my bike. If you're not doing it, then you can't consider yourself a safe driver. You're never absolved of having to do your due diligence, regardless of the actions of others.

The driver in question wasn't driving defensively (nor was the rider)- they both are to blame in this incident.

[Daffy D]

Checking the road is clear is not always practical if it's a long straight stretch

When turning across a road like the car driver was doing and there is traffic coming, you wait for a gap in the traffic to make your turn.

By watching the traffic while waiting for a gap you get an idea of the traffic speed and you can plan your move accordingly.

A bike or even some idiot in a sports car coming at you at a speed way above the traffic flow is just crazy.

[wantan]

It seems the biker is holding the handlebars with only 1 hand while passing a car at 97mph and approaching a busy intersection

I noticed this too. Seems he is giving the car which he overtook a sign with his left hand. Not sure about that. But he seems very relaxed at this speed.

[RubberSideDown]

Here's a screenshot just as he passes the car- the bike is now in view from the intersection (about five seconds before the crash):

He had his hand off the bar (as noted, most likely waving to the car that moved over to let him by) about four second before the impact- the bar isn't seen again, but he probably had hold of it after that (that's speculation on my part, but it's what I do after waving to a driver who gives me room):