New road safety video released by UK police

[RubberSideDown]

I'm a decent driver (of course, everybody thinks they're decent drivers;)), but I can say with a fair degree of confidence that- had I been the driver in the video- I would have seen the bike and I waited until it passed to start my turn. I expect speeders on a long, straight road, and I'm aware bikes and I treat them with the same respect as cars (this is the big problem for riders- cars don't see us as a 'threat').

Does anyone think they would have pulled out in front of the bike?

[Gweiloman]

I'm a decent driver (of course, everybody thinks they're decent drivers;)), but I can say with a fair degree of confidence that- had I been the driver in the video- I would have seen the bike and I waited until it passed to start my turn. I expect speeders on a long, straight road, and I'm aware bikes and I treat them with the same respect as cars (this is the big problem for riders- cars don't see us as a 'threat').

Does anyone think they would have pulled out in front of the bike?

RSD, I truly admire your patience.

It is very obvious from the video (on close study) that the driver

a ) did not use all the allocated run off in the lane to make the turn

b ) did not stop the car and make absolutely certain that there were no oncoming vehicles

c ) cut the corner

I fully agree with you that the rider contributed significantly to his demise (if travelling at the legal limit, his injuries might have been less severe or he may have been able to swerve around the car thus avoiding the accident) but the experts (the real ones that is) has obviously studied the video frame by frame and arrived to the conclusion that the driver was at fault.

[andreandre]

I'm a decent driver (of course, everybody thinks they're decent drivers;)), but I can say with a fair degree of confidence that- had I been the driver in the video- I would have seen the bike and I waited until it passed to start my turn. I expect speeders on a long, straight road, and I'm aware bikes and I treat them with the same respect as cars (this is the big problem for riders- cars don't see us as a 'threat').

Does anyone think they would have pulled out in front of the bike?

The difference is tho, that as a motorcyclist you and I and hopefully others..when driving a car are much more aware of motorcyclists..the average car driver just ''does not see bikes'' for a variety of reasons.

I suggested to the boffins at a motorcycle awareness/safety meeting once that ..all intending car drivers should ride a motorbike for 12 months first..they will become aware/alert and the survivors would become very good car drivers..

They didn't take that suggestion on....

[RubberSideDown]

^^

I agree with that, but it also supports the point that the driver screwed up (he never saw the bike- that's an egregious error- if he had misjudged the bike's speed I could see how it happened, but it can't give him a pass on his complete lack of having noticed it at all). People have complained about now fast bikes tend to ride on UK streets, which means drivers should have greater awareness of the motorcycles that share the roads. There's all this grumbling about fast bikes, but very little about the clueless drivers who take them out on a regular basis.

You shouldn't have to ride a bike to afford them the same respect as you do other vehicles on the road.

Edited September 10, 2014 by RubberSideDown

[JonnyF]

^ I was in the UK in July, I noticed how fast everything goes on UK roads, not just bikes.

Maybe I got used to Thai drivers cruising down the soi at 20kph but I was really surprised how fast everyone was travelling. You need to expect people to be speeding on A roads over there, because so many people do.

In this case, the car driver clearly wasn't looking, and he's quite lucky it was a bike and not a car or truck that hit him or he'd also be dead. That said I believe the rider contributed to this with his speed, at the speed limit I think he might have been able to avoid the car. At the speed he was going he could still have avoided the car IMO but would have ended up in the trees on the left as he wouldn't have had the time/distance to straighten back up after the evasive action.

I had an old village guy on a Honda Wave (with sidecar) do this to me in Rayong as I approached Hat Mae Phim coming from Klaeng. He didn't even look (or I suspect was near blind), I was fortunate that he moved much quicker than the car in the video (and I was going slower than the bike) so I was able to narrowly avoid him to the right but I still remember my girlfriend's scream from the pillion seat. Scary stuff.

[andreandre]

^^

I agree with that, but it also supports the point that the driver screwed up (he never saw the bike- that's an egregious error- if he had misjudged the bike's speed I could see how it happened, but it can't give him a pass on his complete lack of having noticed it at all). People have complained about now fast bikes tend to ride on UK streets, which means drivers should have greater awareness of the motorcycles that share the roads. There's all this grumbling about fast bikes, but very little about the clueless drivers who take them out on a regular basis.

You shouldn't have to ride a bike to afford them the same respect as you do other vehicles on the road.

This site gives an explanation into this phenomenom of just why ''car drivers dont see bikes" It has been an issue since cars and bikes first shared the roads..

http://blog.jafrum.com/2013/04/03/one-of-the-many-possible-reasons-car-drivers-do-not-see-motorcycles/

[pokerkid]

I'm a decent driver (of course, everybody thinks they're decent drivers;)), but I can say with a fair degree of confidence that- had I been the driver in the video- I would have seen the bike and I waited until it passed to start my turn. I expect speeders on a long, straight road, and I'm aware bikes and I treat them with the same respect as cars (this is the big problem for riders- cars don't see us as a 'threat').

Does anyone think they would have pulled out in front of the bike?

i think it could happen to anyone. The driver said he just did not see the bike and I believe him. It happens to many people who are absent minded and thinking about work or whatever that they seem to drive on an automatic pilot. Especially commuters who have travelled the same stretch of road hundreds if times.

Did you ever experience riding somewhere and suddenly not remembering the last 1,2 or 3 kilometers of your trip ?

[RubberSideDown]

I'm a decent driver (of course, everybody thinks they're decent drivers;)), but I can say with a fair degree of confidence that- had I been the driver in the video- I would have seen the bike and I waited until it passed to start my turn. I expect speeders on a long, straight road, and I'm aware bikes and I treat them with the same respect as cars (this is the big problem for riders- cars don't see us as a 'threat').

Does anyone think they would have pulled out in front of the bike?

i think it could happen to anyone. The driver said he just did not see the bike and I believe him. It happens to many people who are absent minded and thinking about work or whatever that they seem to drive on an automatic pilot. Especially commuters who have travelled the same stretch of road hundreds if times.

Did you ever experience riding somewhere and suddenly not remembering the last 1,2 or 3 kilometers of your trip ?

So, then, if that's the case the speed of the bike wasn't an issue (as least not to the point where the rider bore the bulk of the responsibility for what happened). I've never been so distracted that I turned into the path of another vehicle (that I should have seen) on a fast road and caused an accident- have you? Being tired or absent-minded is not an excuse for not doing your due diligence as a driver when it comes to the safety of others- when you turn across a 60mph road, you make sure it's clear before proceeding.

If you're correct, this driver was bound to take someone out sooner or later- if the bike he hit had been going the speed limit, the driver would probably have been sentenced to a jail term rather than community service and license revocation.

Edited September 10, 2014 by RubberSideDown

[Gweiloman]

I'm a decent driver (of course, everybody thinks they're decent drivers;)), but I can say with a fair degree of confidence that- had I been the driver in the video- I would have seen the bike and I waited until it passed to start my turn. I expect speeders on a long, straight road, and I'm aware bikes and I treat them with the same respect as cars (this is the big problem for riders- cars don't see us as a 'threat').

Does anyone think they would have pulled out in front of the bike?

i think it could happen to anyone. The driver said he just did not see the bike and I believe him. It happens to many people who are absent minded and thinking about work or whatever that they seem to drive on an automatic pilot. Especially commuters who have travelled the same stretch of road hundreds if times.

Did you ever experience riding somewhere and suddenly not remembering the last 1,2 or 3 kilometers of your trip ?

Yes, it could happen to anyone - that's one of the reasons why there are so many unnecessary accidents on the road.

Even if we were thinking about work or something else, a decent driver will always have a part of his "consciousness" so to say, focused on road and traffic conditions. Hazard spotting should be as natural as checking your mirrors and putting on your seat belt the moment you get into the car.

Often, we don't remember details of our trips, the potential hazards that the mind is assessing, processing. Once we have passed a potential hazard, the mind dismisses it and focuses on the next one. On a short trip of say just 10 kms, there must be at least a 100 or so potential hazards, more so in the city than out in the countryside. It is not possible to remember each and every one of these.

[metisdead]

A number of inflammatory bickering posts and replies have been removed.

[ll2]

^

Well, even if others are speeding, you're not absolved of doing your due diligence as a driver, and that includes making sure the road is clear before you make your turn. The police and court disagrees with your opinion of the driver's culpability. I think it's pretty obvious there was fault on both sides.

If the biker had been travelling at the speed limit then yes. But no. It's about time these lunatics on these over-powered machines slowed down. Too easy to endlessly blame car and truck drivers, too many bikers don't ride with due diligence.

Sorry the kid died but it was his own fault.

just speaking nonsense on things you have no idea plus disrespecting a dead person.

On top of that, they judged the driver and found him guilty based on police reports and confessions under law so who you are saying it is rider's fault? you are not a judge, you were not there yet you can comment freely on a sensitive subject like you are.

This accident still happens if the rides goes at 60 kph as the driver just turned without checking the road resulted on a death!

Of course rider was not 100 percent innocent on this as he was speeding through an intersection where he needed to slow down but law says, whoever results on a death, that person gets the sentence as in the case because this accident is not fully related with his speed.

please, extraordinary armchair internet bulls.....hitters are not welcomed in TV bikes forum, this is not a topic you can bull.....shit around, i am sorry. why dont you try another one?

Edited September 10, 2014 by ll2

[ll2]

I'm a decent driver (of course, everybody thinks they're decent drivers;)), but I can say with a fair degree of confidence that- had I been the driver in the video- I would have seen the bike and I waited until it passed to start my turn. I expect speeders on a long, straight road, and I'm aware bikes and I treat them with the same respect as cars (this is the big problem for riders- cars don't see us as a 'threat').

Does anyone think they would have pulled out in front of the bike?

i think it could happen to anyone. The driver said he just did not see the bike and I believe him. It happens to many people who are absent minded and thinking about work or whatever that they seem to drive on an automatic pilot. Especially commuters who have travelled the same stretch of road hundreds if times.

Did you ever experience riding somewhere and suddenly not remembering the last 1,2 or 3 kilometers of your trip ?

never, not on a bike, in a car, on a set ski or any vehicle i operated in my life.

Not even while walking or running!

that absent minded driver took a life!

Edited September 10, 2014 by ll2

[ktm jeff]

As i said in post No 19 , the rider may also have glanced in his left mirror after the overtake. This didnt change the FACT that the driver didnt see him , or the following car . Whats with all the "double the speed limit attitude ". 97 MPH is not double 60 MPH.

[wantan]

Seems some big bike riders here think public streets are a big playground for racers. Big bikes and cars going at high speed, making little races, having lots of fun together.

But reality is somehow different. If a big bike comes from behind at high speed most car drivers "make room" because they have fear to get hit or to get involved in an accident. This is not some friendly behaviour, this often is just plain fear.

Approaching cars from behind at 100mph on such streets isnt very friendly imo. Its somehow duress. This has nothing to do with the accident and who is guilty for the death of the rider. But it may shed a light on why some members here try to defend the car driver.

Edited September 10, 2014 by wantan

[ll2]

Seems some big bike riders here think public streets are a big playground for racers. Big bikes and cars going at high speed, making little races, having lots of fun together.

But reality is somehow different. If a big bike comes from behind at high speed most car drivers "make room" because they have fear to get hit or to get involved in an accident. This is not some friendly behaviour, this often is just plain fear.

Approaching cars from behind at 100mph on such streets isnt very friendly imo. Its somehow duress. This has nothing to do with the accident and who is guilty for the death of the rider. But it may shed a light on why some members here try to defend the car driver.

i am sure driver had/has a lawyer to defend him at the court wantan.

but it did not work as they found the driver guilty and gave him a sentence. or maybe worked a bit so they did not give him a harder sentence to be an example for the other drivers so they can check incoming lanes double or triple times and concentrate on their rides more.

also this accident sure is a good example for riders on slowing down before each intersection at all times regardless of the cc of their bikes and experience.

Edited September 10, 2014 by ll2

[denkiblue555]

From the vid's thread (couldn't find it in this one)

[Gweiloman]

Seems some big bike riders here think public streets are a big playground for racers. Big bikes and cars going at high speed, making little races, having lots of fun together.

But reality is somehow different. If a big bike comes from behind at high speed most car drivers "make room" because they have fear to get hit or to get involved in an accident. This is not some friendly behaviour, this often is just plain fear.

Approaching cars from behind at 100mph on such streets isnt very friendly imo. Its somehow duress. This has nothing to do with the accident and who is guilty for the death of the rider. But it may shed a light on why some members here try to defend the car driver.

I don't recall one post that condoned the speed that the rider was travelling at. Without exception, every one has mentioned that he should not have been riding at such a speed, especially on a public road and worse still, approaching an intersection.

The fact of the matter is that the driver made a mistake. He should have seen the bike (and the car behind). He should not have cut the corner. He should have stopped and double checked for oncoming traffic. When it is safe for him to turn, he should have done so with decisiveness and with haste. For all we know, he may have been talking on the phone or fiddling with his radio.

Fact also is the rider SHOULD NOT have been travelling at such a speed. Speed limits (except in Thailand where they don't make any sense whatsoever) are there for a reason. A 60 mph zone in the UK is considered to be a fairly generous limit which means that the relevant authorities are comfortable for motorists to be carrying a relative high speed down what is a very straight road (bear in mind that speed limits in the UK vary from 25 mph in build up areas) to 80 mph (if I recall correctly) on highways. 60 mph is 100 kmh per hour which is only 20 kmh lower than most highways in Europe.

After all is said and done, I think II2 has hit the nail on the head when he said that this accident is a good example (and reason) for slowing down when approaching intersections, something that most of us do.

[RubberSideDown]

Seems some big bike riders here think public streets are a big playground for racers. Big bikes and cars going at high speed, making little races, having lots of fun together.

But reality is somehow different. If a big bike comes from behind at high speed most car drivers "make room" because they have fear to get hit or to get involved in an accident. This is not some friendly behaviour, this often is just plain fear.

Approaching cars from behind at 100mph on such streets isnt very friendly imo. Its somehow duress. This has nothing to do with the accident and who is guilty for the death of the rider. But it may shed a light on why some members here try to defend the car driver.

A recent study (in the US) showed that in accidents that involved cars and motorcycles, the drivers were responsible 60% of the time, mostly for failing to yield the right-of-way (as in this video).

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2013-03-09/news/fl-finding-fault-in-motorcycle-crashes-20130309_1_motorcycle-crashes-chanyoung-lee-motorcycle-riders

Strange you would side with drivers in the types of scenarios referenced in this thread when they're far more likely to injure a rider than a rider is to injure one of them (yes, I'm also a driver and often one of 'them', but as I'm also a rider as well I know how to properly share the road with motorcycles when I'm in my car). Sure, aggressive motorcycle riding might make a driver nervous, but at what likely consequence? A damaged fender or scratched paint? The driver in the video was impacted at high speed, and there was no mention I could find of him being injured- the rider (as is too often the case) was killed. Sure, there are some cases where drivers have been injured or killed in accidents involving bikes, but they're rarities rather than almost certain guarantees for the riders.

To those poor members who've been terrorized by we motorcyclists who ask for a momentary yielding of a couple feet of pavement for a second or two by flashing our brights in your rear view mirror before we're out of your lives, don't worry- there will always be WAY more of us on your scorecard than there will be drivers on ours, and most of the time it will be not through our fault, but through yours.

That said, do you think you could perhaps exhibit a bit more care at intersections and expand your focus to include vehicles on two wheels? Not all of us ride dangerously or aggressively, and we'd like to make it home safely.

[MJP]

^

Well, even if others are speeding, you're not absolved of doing your due diligence as a driver, and that includes making sure the road is clear before you make your turn. The police and court disagrees with your opinion of the driver's culpability. I think it's pretty obvious there was fault on both sides.

If the biker had been travelling at the speed limit then yes. But no. It's about time these lunatics on these over-powered machines slowed down. Too easy to endlessly blame car and truck drivers, too many bikers don't ride with due diligence.

Sorry the kid died but it was his own fault.

just speaking nonsense on things you have no idea plus disrespecting a dead person.

On top of that, they judged the driver and found him guilty based on police reports and confessions under law so who you are saying it is rider's fault? you are not a judge, you were not there yet you can comment freely on a sensitive subject like you are.

This accident still happens if the rides goes at 60 kph as the driver just turned without checking the road resulted on a death!

Of course rider was not 100 percent innocent on this as he was speeding through an intersection where he needed to slow down but law says, whoever results on a death, that person gets the sentence as in the case because this accident is not fully related with his speed.

please, extraordinary armchair internet bulls.....hitters are not welcomed in TV bikes forum, this is not a topic you can bull.....shit around, i am sorry. why dont you try another one?

I could stoop to your level but I won't.

Stay safe now.

[ll2]

^

Well, even if others are speeding, you're not absolved of doing your due diligence as a driver, and that includes making sure the road is clear before you make your turn. The police and court disagrees with your opinion of the driver's culpability. I think it's pretty obvious there was fault on both sides.

If the biker had been travelling at the speed limit then yes. But no. It's about time these lunatics on these over-powered machines slowed down. Too easy to endlessly blame car and truck drivers, too many bikers don't ride with due diligence.

Sorry the kid died but it was his own fault.

just speaking nonsense on things you have no idea plus disrespecting a dead person.

On top of that, they judged the driver and found him guilty based on police reports and confessions under law so who you are saying it is rider's fault? you are not a judge, you were not there yet you can comment freely on a sensitive subject like you are.

This accident still happens if the rides goes at 60 kph as the driver just turned without checking the road resulted on a death!

Of course rider was not 100 percent innocent on this as he was speeding through an intersection where he needed to slow down but law says, whoever results on a death, that person gets the sentence as in the case because this accident is not fully related with his speed.

please, extraordinary armchair internet bulls.....hitters are not welcomed in TV bikes forum, this is not a topic you can bull.....shit around, i am sorry. why dont you try another one?

I could stoop to your level but I won't.

Stay safe now.

you too!

[wantan]

Seems some big bike riders here think public streets are a big playground for racers. Big bikes and cars going at high speed, making little races, having lots of fun together.

But reality is somehow different. If a big bike comes from behind at high speed most car drivers "make room" because they have fear to get hit or to get involved in an accident. This is not some friendly behaviour, this often is just plain fear.

Approaching cars from behind at 100mph on such streets isnt very friendly imo. Its somehow duress. This has nothing to do with the accident and who is guilty for the death of the rider. But it may shed a light on why some members here try to defend the car driver.

A recent study (in the US) showed that in accidents that involved cars and motorcycles, the drivers were responsible 60% of the time, mostly for failing to yield the right-of-way (as in this video).

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2013-03-09/news/fl-finding-fault-in-motorcycle-crashes-20130309_1_motorcycle-crashes-chanyoung-lee-motorcycle-riders

Strange you would side with drivers in the types of scenarios referenced in this thread when they're far more likely to injure a rider than a rider is to injure one of them (yes, I'm also a driver and often one of 'them', but as I'm also a rider as well I know how to properly share the road with motorcycles when I'm in my car). Sure, aggressive motorcycle riding might make a driver nervous, but at what likely consequence? A damaged fender or scratched paint? The driver in the video was impacted at high speed, and there was no mention I could find of him being injured- the rider (as is too often the case) was killed. Sure, there are some cases where drivers have been injured or killed in accidents involving bikes, but they're rarities rather than almost certain guarantees for the riders.

To those poor members who've been terrorized by we motorcyclists who ask for a momentary yielding of a couple feet of pavement for a second or two by flashing our brights in your rear view mirror before we're out of your lives, don't worry- there will always be WAY more of us on your scorecard than there will be drivers on ours, and most of the time it will be not through our fault, but through yours.

That said, do you think you could perhaps exhibit a bit more care at intersections and expand your focus to include vehicles on two wheels? Not all of us ride dangerously or aggressively, and we'd like to make it home safely.

Arguing with percentages isnt very helpful. We are humans not machines. Everyone has just one life to lose. Thats 100% everytime it happens. So if there are bikes who cause harm to drivers thats enough reason for other drivers to have fear.

Dont expect drivers to doublecheck especially for bikes. There are careful drivers, others who are less careful and there are some idiots. And sometimes people make mistakes (can happen to everyone, even ll2 and RSD ). This will not change.

Edited September 10, 2014 by wantan

[metisdead]

As this is about an incident in the UK and this is a forum about Bikes in Thailand, not Thailand related.

//Closed//