'Men in black sought millions to reveal name of mastermind'

[Fat Haggis]

Well if I am a mercenary and someone promise me 1 million baht and i end up getting 100k...then I will use my skills to make him pay or I would kill them all....

It doesn't work like that in real life, the harsh reality is even when blokes are getting stiffed by their companies, they cling to the hope it gets better, I've just seen that a company I worked with out in The Gulf of Aden went belly up, and the lads hadn't seen a paycheck for 3 months, they stayed because if they walked, they'd lose whatever they were due.

As for these guys, they're lucky in a sense, because quite a lot of real nasty men in positions of power, could have arranged to pay them, and make them dissapear, effectively saving money, and tying up loose ends..

[Fat Haggis]

The men in the right side photo are 2 of the arrested and allegedly "men in black". The men in the left side photo are PDRC guards.

LOL!!

Men in Black.jpg

Oh dear, the UDD's Cyber Warriors Red Crayon Brigade, Panthip Division, is back again.

True, but on the bright side they are finally admitting that there were men in black. By defending them they acknowledge that they were on the red team. So all the years of ridiculous posts about black shirts being the military or Democrats can now be ignored. Thanks for the confession guys.

Was there ever any doubt they existed ? It was obvious they not only existed but were the "elite" of the redshirt terror campaign back when the red supporters on TVF said they did not exist.

Hardly "Elite" based on the confessions of the recent arrests

[jayboy]

......................."deemed by international observers to be free and fair.".............................

That's not even open to doubt and even the losers at the last election (ie Democrats) don't bother denying it.Since the views of the Thai people as expressed in a general election cannot be relied on, other routes to power had to be explored.

[jayboy]

Given the views of your wife's friends it seems surprising that political parties backing the red shirts kept on winning elections deemed by international observers to be free and fair.

Good grief! We won the election so it's still a democracy when we use our private militia to intimidate anyone that dares criticise as we rob the country blind? Suborn the police to stop investigating our crimes and lay false charges? Promote populist policies which will cost the country dearly while providing excellent opportunities for corruption?

Hmm. Intimidation of critics, mobilisation of police in favour of government, populist policies, corruption... Seems very familiar.

[jayboy]

Given the views of your wife's friends it seems surprising that political parties backing the red shirts kept on winning elections deemed by international observers to be free and fair.

Hilarious: what a freudian slip. Don't you think it should be red-shirts backing the political party, not the other way round ?.

No.It was a symbiotic relationship of mutual support.

[taff33]

Why pay for something that everyone already know

Please do tell.

[AleG]

Given the views of your wife's friends it seems surprising that political parties backing the red shirts kept on winning elections deemed by international observers to be free and fair.

Good grief! We won the election so it's still a democracy when we use our private militia to intimidate anyone that dares criticise as we rob the country blind? Suborn the police to stop investigating our crimes and lay false charges? Promote populist policies which will cost the country dearly while providing excellent opportunities for corruption?

Hmm. Intimidation of critics, mobilisation of police in favour of government, populist policies, corruption... Seems very familiar.

Yes, the last PTP government. You forgot to add the terrorists working on their behalf. But hey, free and fair elections as claimed by someone living outside the country, so all hunky dory, right?

[Paulzed]

They should have made a counter offer of 1M baht and a car, then once they've named the mastermind, only give them 100,000 baht.

Or just give them a bamboo manicure and then throw them in a dark cell , never to see the light of day again!!

Edited September 14, 2014 by Paulzed

[halloween]

Given the views of your wife's friends it seems surprising that political parties backing the red shirts kept on winning elections deemed by international observers to be free and fair.

Good grief! We won the election so it's still a democracy when we use our private militia to intimidate anyone that dares criticise as we rob the country blind? Suborn the police to stop investigating our crimes and lay false charges? Promote populist policies which will cost the country dearly while providing excellent opportunities for corruption?

Hmm. Intimidation of critics, mobilisation of police in favour of government, populist policies, corruption... Seems very familiar.

Yes they are the hallmarks of each and every Thaksinist government. But you don't like to admit that do you?

BTW "mobilisation of police in favour of government" is nowhere the same as suborning the police to stop investigating the crimes of the party and its armed militia and the laying of false charges against opposition figures, which is what PTP are being currently accused of.

[mikemac]

......................."deemed by international observers to be free and fair.".............................

That's not even open to doubt and even the losers at the last election (ie Democrats) don't bother denying it.Since the views of the Thai people as expressed in a general election cannot be relied on, other routes to power had to be explored.

I suppose if you take out the intimidation aimed at some of the candidates who were opposed to the PTP and dared to campaign in red areas, and the openly paid for votes, then sure they were "free and fair " elections.

[allan michaud]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Since we are in a military rule right now they should offer these men a life in prison for their info or a firing squad if they dont talk. They have already as much as admitted their guilt in their demands. So a firing squad would not be out of order

Sent from my GT-S5310 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Try reading the entire article. The ones shown here are not the same that the politician is claiming approached him. Convienient to say the least. So all we have is hearsay.

[jayjayjayjay]

And Thaworn is a good source?????? Fools!

[jpeg]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Since we are in a military rule right now they should offer these men a life in prison for their info or a firing squad if they dont talk. They have already as much as admitted their guilt in their demands. So a firing squad would not be out of order

Sent from my GT-S5310 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Try reading the entire article. The ones shown here are not the same that the politician is claiming approached him. Convienient to say the least. So all we have is hearsay.

Plus, I doubt very much the poor sods hauled before the press gang are other than a motley crew of scapegoats. Just look at them Wouldn't have fit the profile (let alone clothing) I pointed out and subsequently viewed at the time. So? Yet another dog and pony show?

[FangFerang]

What is this? He was approached, a sworn Democrat, and refused to pay but never had them arrested after the offer ( and asking for money to reveal their employer is a confession, in every way, shape and form)? My suspicion meter just went up ten notches in regards to the current prisoners in custody. They should never have fielded this story -- now it makes it look like the current prisoners are dupes. If not, why didn't they arrest the people who offered to tell four years ago, and better, why aren't they the ones who are arrested now??

Now I will never believe any conviction of the arrested five.

HOGWASH!

[coma]

Are they taking donations?

[Ricardo]

IF Thaworn had a police/government he could trust, it would have been a good time to set up a 'sting' and get them into custody where the advanced interrogation techniques of the RTP could have efficiently gotten all the information they had in exchange for not being interrogated further. Unfortunately, Mr. Thaworn only had Tawit and Chalerm for enforcement and we know they didn't want the truth to come out. Mr. Thaworn probably saved those murderous thug's lives by not turning them over to T and C.

Have another read of the story. According to Thaworn, he was the government when he got this million-baht offer. Or you saying (entirely correctly in my personal view) that not even Thaworn should trust Thaworn?

Sorry, but having re-read the OP, I don't see where it says when he was approached, it is therefore not possible to say that "he was the government when he got this million-baht offer", and by-the-way it was a B5-million each, so not a "million-baht offer" either.

[AleG]

IF Thaworn had a police/government he could trust, it would have been a good time to set up a 'sting' and get them into custody where the advanced interrogation techniques of the RTP could have efficiently gotten all the information they had in exchange for not being interrogated further. Unfortunately, Mr. Thaworn only had Tawit and Chalerm for enforcement and we know they didn't want the truth to come out. Mr. Thaworn probably saved those murderous thug's lives by not turning them over to T and C.

Have another read of the story. According to Thaworn, he was the government when he got this million-baht offer. Or you saying (entirely correctly in my personal view) that not even Thaworn should trust Thaworn?

Sorry, but having re-read the OP, I don't see where it says when he was approached, it is therefore not possible to say that "he was the government when he got this million-baht offer", and by-the-way it was a B5-million each, so not a "million-baht offer" either.

Also doesn't say how he was approached, did they actually meet somewhere? phone call? note under the door? e-mail? third party relaying a message?

[Fat Haggis]

Doesn't really matter Ricardo, the MP did nothing, didn't take it to a higher authority, and possibly blew the chance to avoid the same situation that hapened this year.

Is he convientently leaving out the dates of this "alleged" encounter for a reason?

[jayboy]

Given the views of your wife's friends it seems surprising that political parties backing the red shirts kept on winning elections deemed by international observers to be free and fair.

Good grief! We won the election so it's still a democracy when we use our private militia to intimidate anyone that dares criticise as we rob the country blind? Suborn the police to stop investigating our crimes and lay false charges? Promote populist policies which will cost the country dearly while providing excellent opportunities for corruption?

Hmm. Intimidation of critics, mobilisation of police in favour of government, populist policies, corruption... Seems very familiar.

Yes, the last PTP government. You forgot to add the terrorists working on their behalf. But hey, free and fair elections as claimed by someone living outside the country, so all hunky dory, right?

Don't have to go back that far.Look around you.

As to fair elections this has already been conceded by Abhisit - unless he's also in the pay of Thaksin.

[ChrisY1]

Riiightttttt..!!! So a group of MIB gunmen went to a democrat MP demanded money, who didn't think it was appropriate to get their names at the time and hand the names over to the Police, it's only now he's come forwards? ... Yep.. I'll swallow that story.. unlike several posters here.

So you are sure he could trust the Police to do their real Job?

Nope, but not all cops are/were on Thaksins payrol, but I'm sure that in the interests of public safety, he would have taken this information to a higher level.. Seeked to have had it verified too, but instead he just sent them way?

So a group of self confessed notorious men in black gunmen, just presumabley waltz into his office and demand cash in return for naming their paymaster? and he sent them packing?? Didn't take down any information that could verify who they were, or whether they were indeed telling the truth, and not some regular Thais just trying to chance their arm?

Does anyone else find that scenario just a little bit far fetched?

Of course, it's plain stupid to come out and publicly state this...........but, Thai politicians do have some strange idiosycracies.....

[Centrum]

Since we are in a military rule right now they should offer these men a life in prison for their info or a firing squad if they dont talk. They have already as much as admitted their guilt in their demands. So a firing squad would not be out of order

Sent from my GT-S5310 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Death sentence for not giving more than name rank and serial number?

You've studied under Pol Pot I see!

[Emptyset]

Alex, have you ever considered the remotest of possibilities that these guys are indeed mercenaries, who would work for the side that pays them, or are you so blinkered that you've closed off your mind to all the variables that are out there?

Me personally I like to keep an open mind and wait till there's more evidence that comes to light, but my immediate gut instinct on this story it's one of convenience, and it plays into the Democrats hands, and makes it look like more plausable, and yet, this Deputy Interior Minister didn't see it worthwhile to report this, all documented of course, time, place dates and names to his Prime Minister, Mr Abhisist , or his Deputy PM Mr Suthep? ..

But 4 years later, it surfaces ?? hmmmmmm yeah you might be swallowing this like a soi 6 ladyboy, I'll refrain from finger pointing and euphoria till proof is presented by this MP that it really did happen, not on his word alone sir.

Yes, it is quite possible they are mercenaries, on the other hand while the PDRC was being bombed regularly we had a certain cradle of Red Shirt apologists reposting pictures like that from Panthip forums and other sources "proving" how the PDRC was bombing their own people. I remember one, pretty much the same style, one side blurry CCTV picture of the Victory Monument bomber, the other side picture of Suthep leading a march, one man behind circled in red with a red arrow pointing at the bomber on the other side.

It's called disinformation.

If you look around the Thai language social media, both sides produce an endless amount of such pictures (many of which are likely photoshopped). So it's not just the reds. Sometimes the pictures produced by the 'yellow photoshop team' end up posted on here. In fact I remember during the anti-govt clashes with police that a picture was posted and reposted on here which purported to show the men in black in action, firing at both police and protesters. IIRC, one side was the supposed men in black on a rooftop, and the other side was a picture of some red shirts with some scary looking men in black type figures highlighted with red circles so you wouldn't miss them. But the picture of the men in black on the rooftop was revealed by google image search to be a picture of a police operation from two years earlier.

However, I think only the person who initially produced the picture (in bad faith) was guilty of "disinformation". Those who shared it probably actually believed what they saw. That's true believers for you, I guess. They're willing to believe anything as long as it supports their argument, however flimsy or absurd the evidence for it might be (like "pay slips" for terrorists). Reminds me of an argument I was having with a red sympathising farang (many of whom seem to be more 'red' than actual red shirts) about Amsterdam's absurd white paper. As I couldn't refute all the claims in it with counter-evidence my argument that key points were wrong or misleading was invalid according to him. But sometimes there isn't any single piece of hard evidence you can offer, you just know something is wrong because it refutes every other thing you know to be true. His main argument for believing it seemed to be that it was produced by an "expert" and was thorough and scientific. As though it was just an unbiased professional looking cooly through the evidence, analysing it carefully and reporting back on his findings...

Anyway, I don't want to drag this off topic into a debate about epistemology and what we're justified in believing. Most people are aware that this is a general human psychological tendency - we don't look for the truth, but rather look for evidence which supports the beliefs we already hold. But I know Haggis is one of the more skeptical sorts, so he's naturally going to question some of the stuff posted on here and taken at face value. Thaworn was not only a Democrat MP, he was also responsible for the PDRC guards. Now if the UDD guard chief had claimed that he was approached by the popcorn gunman who wanted 5 million baht to tell the truth about who hired him, most on here would take that with a pinch of salt. So why do they seem to believe everything Thaworn says?

I do believe the MiB existed and this actually supports my theory that there were two groups. One who were more aligned with the red shirt ideology and mingled with protesters (like those arrested) and another yet more shadowy group used in certain operations (possibly including the initial grenade at Kok Wua and the burning of CentralWorld). I don't have hard evidence for this, so could be wrong, it's just what I think is likely. Yet I'm not so inclined to take Thaworn's claims at face value. What use would it be to 'reveal the mastermind'? It's obviously not going to be Thaksin or anyone high up the chain. The former group that were red shirt aligned are more likely to give up names in the chain, as they had a direct involvement with the red shirts (but it's obviously still not going to be anything to do with Thaksin - as if he'd have any direct involvement with what happens on the ground). But the mercenary group would've more likely been dealt with on a need to know basis. Doubt those that hired them would give up too much unnecessary information. But, as I say, I might be completely wrong. Anyway, if the story is even half true at least it dispels the myth that the men in black were Cambodian police sent by Hun Sen - a conjecture that seemed to be based on little other than a (racist) fear and suspicion towards the Khmer.

Edited September 14, 2014 by Emptyset

[halloween]

What is this? He was approached, a sworn Democrat, and refused to pay but never had them arrested after the offer ( and asking for money to reveal their employer is a confession, in every way, shape and form)? My suspicion meter just went up ten notches in regards to the current prisoners in custody. They should never have fielded this story -- now it makes it look like the current prisoners are dupes. If not, why didn't they arrest the people who offered to tell four years ago, and better, why aren't they the ones who are arrested now??

Now I will never believe any conviction of the arrested five.

HOGWASH!

There was no date stated for the approach, why do you claim 4 years ago. Because it suits your agenda? Because refusing to pass such information to PTP would be far less damaging than the imaginary sin/crime you are accusing him of?

Reason for edit; got the wrong fool.

Edited September 14, 2014 by halloween

[Ricardo]

Doesn't really matter Ricardo, the MP did nothing, didn't take it to a higher authority, and possibly blew the chance to avoid the same situation that hapened this year.

Is he convientently leaving out the dates of this "alleged" encounter for a reason?

If the "higher authority" was the DSI under Tharit, or CAPO under former-DPM Chalerm, then taking it to them would perhaps have been a waste-of-time, or worse.

And Chalerm did claim to know anyway, who the MiBs were, he just didn't yet get round to sharing the information, with himself or anyone else.

But would you agree that wandasloan was wrong, to claim "he was the government when he got this million-baht offer" based on the OP, which says nothing of the kind ?

[Emptyset]

Doesn't really matter Ricardo, the MP did nothing, didn't take it to a higher authority, and possibly blew the chance to avoid the same situation that hapened this year.

Is he convientently leaving out the dates of this "alleged" encounter for a reason?

If the "higher authority" was the DSI under Tharit, or CAPO under former-DPM Chalerm, then taking it to them would perhaps have been a waste-of-time, or worse.

And Chalerm did claim to know anyway, who the MiBs were, he just didn't yet get round to sharing the information, with himself or anyone else.

But would you agree that wandasloan was wrong, to claim "he was the government when he got this million-baht offer" based on the OP, which says nothing of the kind ?

Yes, wandasloan was wrong. It isn't clear when Thaworn was approached. If it's true I'm surprised they didn't go for the option of holding a press conference with the MiB, or released some sort of video or something. The most suspicious thing is that he's only just decided to reveal this when usually they'd never pass up on an opportunity to discredit the other side. Still, it might be true, it's just another of those things we'll never really be sure about either way. Even with these arrests and confessions (which as has previously been stated are often retracted later with claims of duress) we'll never get the full story. Personally I think there is probably some truth to the confessions but that truth is also mixed in with fictions which are convenient to those in power and the story they wish to tell. Only people who were directly involved or were very familiar with those who were are likely to know what really happened. But even they might not have the full story.

As for Chalerm, I'm pretty sure he did give more details regards his claims about the men in black, though he didn't name the 'mastermind' explicitly. He was trying to link them to some police guy in Burriram who is close to Newin iirc.

[hiller]

Halloween,

Nope, I used it in the same context that the OP was delivered, it did clearly say they "demanded", and I said they went to a democrat MP and demanded.. I fail to see the difference, no matter which way they look at it, they were attempting to gain a significant amount of money, in return for naming names..

Why didn't the MP take this to a higher level, I think that a nice wee "fee" and an amnesty for them,"IF" they were telling the truth, and there was enough evidence there to support their claims? it would have been well worth it if it indicted high ranking UDD/PTP officials don't you think?

You must remember, there are No Unsolved Crimes In Thailand.

[KhnomKhnom]

Easy answer? Just who do we know of who

-wants to run Thailand again?

-wants to recover seized millions?

-has the billions to fund his/her private army?

-has buddies in Cambodia to allow private army training there?

-is ruthless enough to want to stage a civil war?

Gee, I don't know, and I am sure no one else knows.

[Robby nz]

Halloween,

Nope, I used it in the same context that the OP was delivered, it did clearly say they "demanded", and I said they went to a democrat MP and demanded.. I fail to see the difference, no matter which way they look at it, they were attempting to gain a significant amount of money, in return for naming names..

Why didn't the MP take this to a higher level, I think that a nice wee "fee" and an amnesty for them,"IF" they were telling the truth, and there was enough evidence there to support their claims? it would have been well worth it if it indicted high ranking UDD/PTP officials don't you think?

You must remember, there are No Unsolved Crimes In Thailand.

There wouldn't have been if they had managed to pass the amnesty bill, fortunately that was stopped by the people.

[tbthailand]

'Thaworn served as deputy interior minister during the government's tenure.' (Abhisit Vejjajiva's)

and

'Thaworn was also a leader of the People's Democratic Reform Committee'

so obviously I believe every word

Maybe the Nation should use the byline, POLITICAL VIOLENCE VENGENCE

"Thaworn served as deputy interior minister during the government's tenure.' (Abhisit Vejjajiva's)

and

'Thaworn was also a leader of the People's Democratic Reform Committee'"

What is wrong with this?

Ahh - I understand he is not a redshirt, so you don't want to believe him

why would you consider someone like that a reliable source when you don't consider PTP a reliable source regarding denials of the existence of the black shirts?

[ianf]

Well attach some leads to their nuts, that will make em sing and you only have to pay for the electricity , mind human-rights will be onto this as they were complaining about atrocities under the latest coup which was denied , in The Western Press last Friday , so another issue won't worry very much and as someone said they are just scum anyway. Did anyone see in the Thai press about the accusation from Human -rights watchdog about all the Generals men and treatment of suspects etc., though not.

Does anyone trust Human Rights Watch? Are they a genuine human rights organisation. Off course not! The connections between them and Amsterdam renders them to suspicion. Don't trust Human Rights Watch. They are a scam.