Koh Tao - Autopsy of murdered Britons shows struggle, drowning

[webfact]

Autopsy of Murdered Britons Shows Struggle, Drowning
By Khosod English


A memorial site near where 2 British tourists were murdered on Koh Tao island, 16 Sept 2014.

BANGKOK — Autopsies of the two British tourists who were brutally murdered on the popular island of Koh Tao this week suggest the male victim physically fought someone before he died from head injuries and drowning.

The naked bodies of David Miller, 24, and Hannah Witheridge, 23, were found on Haat Sai Ri beach on the morning of 15 September. Police have yet to determine a perpetrator or motive behind the murder.

The autopsy completed today found seawater in Mr. Miller's lungs, indicating that he died from drowning as well as severe injuries to the head from a "blunt object." A bloodied hoe was also found near the crime scene.

Mr. Miller had wounds on his knuckles, suggesting he fought the perpetrator before he was killed, said Pol.Maj.Gen. Ponchai Sutheerakun. He added that no signs of sexual assault were found on Mr. Miller's body, effectively disputing earlier media reports that Mr. Miller was raped before his death.

The autopsy report indicates that Ms. Witheridge had engaged in sexual intercourse prior to her death, but it is unclear whether the act was consensual or forced. A number of media agencies previously reported that she was raped.

Ms. Witheridge was similarly killed by severe injuries to the head according to the autopsy report.

Pol.Maj.Gen. Ponchai said the police have not yet identified the traces of DNA left on the victims' bodies, such as a "hair" found in Ms. Witheridge's left hand.

The report did not clarify the time of the victims' deaths, the officer added.

Two British men who traveled with Mr. Miller to Koh Tao are being detained by the police in Bangkok for questioning, though neither has been officially charged of any crimes.

Source: http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1410951357&typecate=06&section=


-- Khaosod English 2014-09-18

[Fred Flinstone]

DNA from Semen could clear up where the semen came from.

Is it Asian semen or Western semen?

http://www.iape.org/emanual/biological_evidence.htm

[JeremyBowskill]

This case just gets weirder by the day, so much information/disinformation. Must be an absolute nightmare time for both sets of families, condolences to both.

[monk213]

It seems more and more now to be pointing towards at least 2 or more people, intoxicated coming across the pair of Brits on the beach. I would just assume this group of people saw what was going on and in an intoxicated group manner decided to force their way into the situation. Miller tries to fight back but gets dragged into the water and gets beaten/drowned, then they turn their attention to the poor girl. This is just my assumption from a few days of reading through 'evidence'.

When people are in groups often they can adopt pack mentalities and this is seen in riots and various examples, especially if intoxicated. Frenzies can build and people do things they often would not.

[siampolee]

JeremyBowskill post # 3

This case just gets weirder by the day, so much information/disinformation. Must be an absolute nightmare time for both sets of families, condolences to both.

Indeed I echo your condolences to the families of the victims.

However I am of the opinion there is a grand cover up operation in this matter .

The Thai's have been down this road before when someone of ''influence'' may be involved or somehow connected to the crime(s).

I refer to the murder of Kirtsy Jones in 2000.

http://www.samuitimes.com/breakthrough-murdered-backpacker-kirsty-jones-investigation/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-mid-wales-14501853

Edited September 18, 2014 by siampolee

[NongKhaiKid]

A TV text says the semen found in the girl doesn't match any suspect.

Square One for the BIB.

[Docno]

A TV text says the semen found in the girl doesn't match any suspect.

Square One for the BIB.

As someone else has mentioned, they should be at least able to determine ethnicity from the DNA samples even if they cannot yet identify specific individuals. That takes a few days (I believe) but it would at least help in narrowing down the search (SE Asian vs Westerner though perhaps not Burmese vs Thai).

[JonnyF]

If David Miller was drowned then this strongly points to a gang attack IMO. Very unlikely a single male could have done all this given the nature of the injuries to both victims. Surely the DNA will tell us how many attackers there were and their ethnicity. This would then allow the police to focus their efforts rather than the random approach we've seen so far.

Very odd how they seem to be ignoring the possibility it was a Thai. I'm not saying it was, but it would be beyond amateur for the police to rule out all Thai nationals based on "Thai people would not do a bad thing like this". I hate to say it but I'm starting to smell a coverup here. Lucky it's got so much international attention or I suspect a patsy would have been found already.

Might be time to get DNA from every male (Thai/Burmese/Western) on the island that night.

[Harsh Jones]

JeremyBowskill post # 3

This case just gets weirder by the day, so much information/disinformation. Must be an absolute nightmare time for both sets of families, condolences to both.

Indeed I echo your condolences to the families of the victims.

However I am of the opinion there is a grand cover up operation in this matter .

The Thai's have been down this road before when someone of ''influence'' may be involved or somehow connected to the crime(s).

I refer to the murder of Kirtsy Jones in 2000.

http://www.samuitimes.com/breakthrough-murdered-backpacker-kirsty-jones-investigation/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-mid-wales-14501853

This was suspected in 2 previous high profile cases like this. Private investigators were hired from the west and no such grand conspiracies were uncovered.

[Harsh Jones]

A TV text says the semen found in the girl doesn't match any suspect.

Square One for the BIB.

As someone else has mentioned, they should be at least able to determine ethnicity from the DNA samples even if they cannot yet identify specific individuals. That takes a few days (I believe) but it would at least help in narrowing down the search (SE Asian vs Westerner though perhaps not Burmese vs Thai).

It could be semen from consensual sex too.

[Docno]

A TV text says the semen found in the girl doesn't match any suspect.

Square One for the BIB.

As someone else has mentioned, they should be at least able to determine ethnicity from the DNA samples even if they cannot yet identify specific individuals. That takes a few days (I believe) but it would at least help in narrowing down the search (SE Asian vs Westerner though perhaps not Burmese vs Thai).

It could be semen from consensual sex too.

Very true... but at least that may bring other 'witnesses' into the investigation. [Presumably they will already know if the DNA matches that of the other victim]

[ToddinChonburi]

Something tells me they are not going to catch the real killers.

[webfact]

DNA tests do not match with those of suspects in British tourists’ murder

Full story: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/761314-koh-tao-dna-tests-do-not-match-with-those-of-suspects-in-british-tourists-murder/

[ingvar]

DNA from Semen could clear up where the semen came from.

Is it Asian semen or Western semen?

http://www.iape.org/emanual/biological_evidence.htm

The link provided specifically says race cannot be determined (in red lettering). However I think that is not correct and may be old information. I clearly remember a discovery program I watched where they traced the migration of humans out of Africa towards Asia and Australia only by using DNA from thousands of samples.

Also since the female victim did have a a hair sample in her hand, the hair from an Asian and Caucasian is very different. Of course there is no evidence the Hair is from the perpetrator but should be enough to nudge the investigation towards a certain direction (or maybe it already has?).

[monk213]

Something tells me they are not going to catch the real killers.

I have felt this for a couple of days, I think they are either long gone or they will be covered up.

[NongKhaiKid]

JeremyBowskill post # 3

This case just gets weirder by the day, so much information/disinformation. Must be an absolute nightmare time for both sets of families, condolences to both.

Indeed I echo your condolences to the families of the victims.

However I am of the opinion there is a grand cover up operation in this matter .

The Thai's have been down this road before when someone of ''influence'' may be involved or somehow connected to the crime(s).

I refer to the murder of Kirtsy Jones in 2000.

http://www.samuitimes.com/breakthrough-murdered-backpacker-kirsty-jones-investigation/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-mid-wales-14501853

I' m sure the trolls and pseudo ' love Thailand ' brigade will climb into us for this but look how the the BIB and officialdom all the way to the top have boxed themselves in by stupid remarks now echoing around the world.

Little or no respect for the deceased only worry about the effect on tourism.

I'm sure if, for even a moment, they are filling their knickers that a Thai(s) may be involved after all that's been said and for which no one will be disciplined.

It would be nice if those responsible for this tragedy are brought to justice with no other considerations in play.

[GOLDBUGGY]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

It seems more and more now to be pointing towards at least 2 or more people, intoxicated coming across the pair of Brits on the beach. I would just assume this group of people saw what was going on and in an intoxicated group manner decided to force their way into the situation. Miller tries to fight back but gets dragged into the water and gets beaten/drowned, then they turn their attention to the poor girl. This is just my assumption from a few days of reading through 'evidence'.

When people are in groups often they can adopt pack mentalities and this is seen in riots and various examples, especially if intoxicated. Frenzies can build and people do things they often would not.

When Miller was fighting his assailant off there was nothing stopping the girl from running and screaming for her life, unless she was held back by another person also. She was only 50 meters from her Villa. Or already knocked out first, which seems unlikely. By humane nature the attackers would go for the strongest person first, and not the weakest.

Evidence also points to the fact Miller's fists were bruised. This indicates he fought back and perhaps got a lucky punch in, or two. It would only be nature that once this happened the other attacker would help out his friend, who may at that time be losing the fight to Miller. Again leaving the woman free to run away. It is not easy to hold someone down to drown them either, although I never tried this...yet. Unless of course Miller was out by then.

But this still leaves you with at least 2 attackers, but my guess is more likely 3 or 4 of them. The cigarette butts found near-by on the beach also suggest this. Which brings to question, and if this woman was raped, and I wonder why they can't determine that, why only one semen sample? Unless of course police are withholding this information. They never said if the hair samples and semen samples were the same.

The murder weapon is also very strange. I mean how many things do you know of that gets killed by a garden hoe other than a garden snake? It is not something you bring to commit a murder. So I am assuming it is something they came across by chance. Perhaps to use more for intimidation than as a weapon.

My best guess is that they were followed from the party, so I would look very closely at everyone that was there. Especially 3 or 4 men sitting together alone and without women. Someone with a bruises on his face the next day would make me take a closer look at him also. The suspect's DNA did not match the sperm.

But in my book, and unless he had a good alibi, I wouldn't count him out of the picture just yet. He could have been the guy holding the girl back. If he is involved and with a death penalty hanging over his head, he still may spills all the beans yet.

.

[HooHaa]

sigh, why cant the news on this story be centralized, though i suppose it certainly does help advertising revenues to have multiple topics full of uninformed speculation

[KissMyAxe]

Monk213 my exact thoughts too!

[KissMyAxe]

It seems more and more now to be pointing towards at least 2 or more people, intoxicated coming across the pair of Brits on the beach. I would just assume this group of people saw what was going on and in an intoxicated group manner decided to force their way into the situation. Miller tries to fight back but gets dragged into the water and gets beaten/drowned, then they turn their attention to the poor girl. This is just my assumption from a few days of reading through 'evidence'.

When people are in groups often they can adopt pack mentalities and this is seen in riots and various examples, especially if intoxicated. Frenzies can build and people do things they often would not.

My exact thoughts too!

[JenniferSG]

Who says the cigarette butts had anything at all to do with the murderers? Perhaps they were just beach trash from anyone who visited the beach that day.

[Triplebank999]

DNA from Semen could clear up where the semen came from.

Is it Asian semen or Western semen?

http://www.iape.org/emanual/biological_evidence.htm

Wow, really? Better pass that information on to the IFS.

[JenniferSG]

If David Miller was drowned then this strongly points to a gang attack IMO. Very unlikely a single male could have done all this given the nature of the injuries to both victims. Surely the DNA will tell us how many attackers there were and their ethnicity. This would then allow the police to focus their efforts rather than the random approach we've seen so far.

.

They were on a beach. Isn't it possible that, after his massive head injury, he lay alive but unconscious while the tide came in?

[jaltsc]

"Police have yet to determine a perpetrator or motive behind the murder."

From a western newspaper: "He did not explain how the police knew that the hair was from a foreigner, and from the potential killer, rather than from Miller or one of Witheridge’s other companions. Since the bodies were discovered on a rocky beach, questions have arisen about the competence of the police."

Obviously a reporter who is new to the Thai police system.

Edited September 18, 2014 by jaltsc

[anto]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

DNA from Semen could clear up where the semen came from.

Is it Asian semen or Western semen?

http://www.iape.org/emanual/biological_evidence.htm

DNA analysis cannot:

Associate evidence DNA to a person and give the frequency of occurrence in a random population

Determine the age or race of the person who donated the sample

[GOLDBUGGY]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Who says the cigarette butts had anything at all to do with the murderers? Perhaps they were just beach trash from anyone who visited the beach that day.

My first thoughts to.

But when one of these butts matched DNA to the semen in the woman, it puts a whole new look at this, and the others very close to this one as well.

[Harsh Jones]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

It seems more and more now to be pointing towards at least 2 or more people, intoxicated coming across the pair of Brits on the beach. I would just assume this group of people saw what was going on and in an intoxicated group manner decided to force their way into the situation. Miller tries to fight back but gets dragged into the water and gets beaten/drowned, then they turn their attention to the poor girl. This is just my assumption from a few days of reading through 'evidence'.

When people are in groups often they can adopt pack mentalities and this is seen in riots and various examples, especially if intoxicated. Frenzies can build and people do things they often would not.

When Miller was fighting his assailant off there was nothing stopping the girl from running and screaming for her life, unless she was held back by another person also. She was only 50 meters from her Villa. Or already knocked out first, which seems unlikely. By humane nature the attackers would go for the strongest person first, and not the weakest.

Evidence also points to the fact Miller's fists were bruised. This indicates he fought back and perhaps got a lucky punch in, or two. It would only be nature that once this happened the other attacker would help out his friend, who may at that time be losing the fight to Miller. Again leaving the woman free to run away. It is not easy to hold someone down to drown them either, although I never tried this...yet. Unless of course Miller was out by then.

But this still leaves you with at least 2 attackers, but my guess is more likely 3 or 4 of them. The cigarette butts found near-by on the beach also suggest this. Which brings to question, and if this woman was raped, and I wonder why they can't determine that, why only one semen sample? Unless of course police are withholding this information. They never said if the hair samples and semen samples were the same.

The murder weapon is also very strange. I mean how many things do you know of that gets killed by a garden hoe other than a garden snake? It is not something you bring to commit a murder. So I am assuming it is something they came across by chance. Perhaps to use more for intimidation than as a weapon.

My best guess is that they were followed from the party, so I would look very closely at everyone that was there. Especially 3 or 4 men sitting together alone and without women. Someone with a bruises on his face the next day would make me take a closer look at him also. The suspect's DNA did not match the sperm.

But in my book, and unless he had a good alibi, I wouldn't count him out of the picture just yet. He could have been the guy holding the girl back. If he is involved and with a death penalty hanging over his head, he still may spills all the beans yet.

.

Much like the case of Pitbull, maybe Miller fought and won a fight against someone previously and then someone attacked to get revenge. This would explain why there seems to be so much damage to the hands of Miller

[mike324]

So much false and rumor info being passed around by the police and media. Police should stop releasing theories until they have the facts.

Like whose semen was found on the girl? does it match David Miller?

Does the victims DNA match the ones on the cigarette butt?

And the bloody piece of clothing found in Christopher Ware, does any of the victims DNA match the blood sample? Does it match Christophers?

If the facts are there, so much rumor can be cleared up.

[wabothai]

No word about the hair in the ladies hand.

Seems like quite a clue to me.

[GOLDBUGGY]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

So much false and rumor info being passed around by the police and media. Police should stop releasing theories until they have the facts.

Like whose semen was found on the girl? does it match David Miller?

Does the victims DNA match the ones on the cigarette butt?

And the bloody piece of clothing found in Christopher Ware, does any of the victims DNA match the blood sample? Does it match Christophers?

If the facts are there, so much rumor can be cleared up.

I think it is obvious that the Semen DNA did not match David Miller. The cigarette butts as well, otherwise they would not hold them for evidence. But the DNA from the semen also matched a cigarette butt, so it is assumed that this person with that DNA is the prime suspect.

Another post said that none of the DNA from Christopher matched any of the evidence found at the crime scene or from the victims. So it was not his semen or cigarette butt, or blood on his shirt, which would put him at the crime scene,