Ukraine president urges US support

[webfact]

Ukraine crisis: President Poroshenko in key US visit

WASHINGTON: -- Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko has urged the US to provide military assistance to his country to counter pro-Russian eastern separatists.

In an address to a joint session of Congress, he said ill-equipped young Ukrainian servicemen were fighting a "war for the free world" against Russian aggression.

US President Barack Obama has condemned Russia's actions in Ukraine.

But he has said that military support will only include non-lethal equipment.

Mr Poroshenko told the joint session of Congress in Washington that Ukrainian government forces needed more equipment - both lethal and non-lethal.

"Blankets, night-vision goggles are important, but one cannot win the war with blankets."

Full story: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-29245609


-- BBC 2014-09-19

[ABCer]

Watched his speach in USA (or was it Europe?) on BBC last night.

Rhetorics running wild: 'Democracy' 'Freedom' 'Ukraine+USA+Europe - United' 'We need your support' etc.

The behaviour of the audience - multiple standing up ovations and apploading euphoria.

Stalin, Chruschov and Brezhnev speaches at their Party Conventions come to mind. The analogy is striking. Pigs are Pigs and always will be.

IMHO the overall impression of the speach - the President of Ukraine is itching to fight Putin as much as Putin is itching to fight Ukraine.

Sad. Tragic. Nobody thinks of the People. Both Ukrainian and Russian.

Ukraine economy is no more. Ukraine Army is no more. Russian economy is in ruins. Russian Army is weak internally though is much better equipped.

Neither Ukraine nor Russia have Democracy, Law and Order, Economy in the true sense of these words.

The imminent fight between the two will be the War of Russians against Russians to the Glory of the USA.

Both Ukraine and Russia desperately need to resolve their huge and multiple internal problems. Which is very difficult.

Both Ukraine and Russia are going to take a much easier road - War! Nobody thinks of the People!

But the last bit is true for any times and any People. Sad!

Edited September 19, 2014 by ABCer

[lovetotravel]

His country has been invaded and territory taken. Russian troops are in his country fighting and bombing and supplying weapons to the separatists. I'd hardly say he's only interested in fighting Putin. He's interested in having the foreign invaders kicked out and having things get back to "normal".

You are right. Nobody thinks of the people. Putin could have stopped this months ago by not invading Crimea. Simple. But he did, so the blame rests there.

The US has NO interest in fighting a war with Russia. I do have extreme sympathy for these people caught in the middle. As you say, it's the poor who pay the price.

[h90]

Watched his speach in USA (or was it Europe?) on BBC last night.

Rhetorics running wild: 'Democracy' 'Freedom' 'Ukraine+USA+Europe - United' 'We need your support' etc.

The behaviour of the audience - multiple standing up ovations and apploading euphoria.

Stalin, Chruschov and Brezhnev speaches at their Party Conventions come to mind. The analogy is striking. Pigs are Pigs and always will be.

IMHO the overall impression of the speach - the President of Ukraine is itching to fight Putin as much as Putin is itching to fight Ukraine.

Sad. Tragic. Nobody thinks of the People. Both Ukrainian and Russian.

Ukraine economy is no more. Ukraine Army is no more. Russian economy is in ruins. Russian Army is weak internally though is much better equipped.

Neither Ukraine nor Russia have Democracy, Law and Order, Economy in the true sense of these words.

The imminent fight between the two will be the War of Russians against Russians to the Glory of the USA.

Both Ukraine and Russia desperately need to resolve their huge and multiple internal problems. Which is very difficult.

Both Ukraine and Russia are going to take a much easier road - War! Nobody thinks of the People!

But the last bit is true for any times and any People. Sad!

Well Russian economy isn't doing well but it isn't in ruins. I read something of -0.2 % grow. That is bad but not ruins.

And I don't see Putin itching to fight the Ukraine. He could take them easily in 2 weeks if he want. But he could never finance that broken country.

[johna]

Lets wait till spring, and a long cold winter to reflect upon this.

[ABCer]

Watched his speach in USA (or was it Europe?) on BBC last night.

Rhetorics running wild: 'Democracy' 'Freedom' 'Ukraine+USA+Europe - United' 'We need your support' etc.

The behaviour of the audience - multiple standing up ovations and apploading euphoria.

Stalin, Chruschov and Brezhnev speaches at their Party Conventions come to mind. The analogy is striking. Pigs are Pigs and always will be.

IMHO the overall impression of the speach - the President of Ukraine is itching to fight Putin as much as Putin is itching to fight Ukraine.

Sad. Tragic. Nobody thinks of the People. Both Ukrainian and Russian.

Ukraine economy is no more. Ukraine Army is no more. Russian economy is in ruins. Russian Army is weak internally though is much better equipped.

Neither Ukraine nor Russia have Democracy, Law and Order, Economy in the true sense of these words.

The imminent fight between the two will be the War of Russians against Russians to the Glory of the USA.

Both Ukraine and Russia desperately need to resolve their huge and multiple internal problems. Which is very difficult.

Both Ukraine and Russia are going to take a much easier road - War! Nobody thinks of the People!

But the last bit is true for any times and any People. Sad!

Well Russian economy isn't doing well but it isn't in ruins. I read something of -0.2 % grow. That is bad but not ruins.

And I don't see Putin itching to fight the Ukraine. He could take them easily in 2 weeks if he want. But he could never finance that broken country.

Oils ain't oils. "Economy" ain't Economy. A country that cannot feed itself for the last 100 years, whose wealth is stolen and Trillions of $$$ worth is in the West whilst paper money has nothing to buy unless it is imported, a country that has massive problems in Management, Social Security, Law and Order and rampant corruption - HAS NO ECONOMY in normal sense of the word.

As to 'taking' Ukraine - you are right. The last thing Putin wants is 45M dependants. The same goes for Europe and USA.

Ukrainians are dreaming of becoming a European country. They need to work very long and very hard to install 'Europe' in Ukraine. Nobody is going to give them this.

This is why Poroshenko asking for 'lethal and non-lethal arms' is wrong! He should have been asking for money to rebuild Economy. But who is going to give him that?

War with Russia will throw Ukraine back. If there is any room where to move back.

And finally, to the big question of Crimea. If Ukrainians would have not pressed Sevastopol issue - there would have been no annexation. But not a grain of brain is all Ukraine is at the moment.

Poroshenko should try to reach peace with Putin.

Conditions: Sevastopol goes to Russia forever. Crimea goes back to Ukraine. Never any NATO alliances. Economicaly - free hand. Go and trade with anybody free. And there will be peace!

It seems to me that Belarus is a fairly good example.

Edited September 19, 2014 by ABCer

[BATHIK]

Saw a summary on Twitter - Democracy! Freedom! U-S-A! Ukraine! Now give us money.

Works all the time.

And they still refuse to acknowledge that rebels are their own citizens, the ones that had their elected president overthrown, twice.

Here in Thailand, after each coup, generals go out of their way to please former regime supporters, address their legitimate concerns, and draw them onto their side. Over in Ukraine they pretend that opposition does not even exist, and if it does it needs to be bombed out of existence.

[lovetotravel]

Saw a summary on Twitter - Democracy! Freedom! U-S-A! Ukraine! Now give us money.

Works all the time.

And they still refuse to acknowledge that rebels are their own citizens, the ones that had their elected president overthrown, twice.

Here in Thailand, after each coup, generals go out of their way to please former regime supporters, address their legitimate concerns, and draw them onto their side. Over in Ukraine they pretend that opposition does not even exist, and if it does it needs to be bombed out of existence.

As we well know, not all the rebels are Ukraine citizens. And these are the ones providing weapons and urging on the rebels who are Ukraine citizens. These rebels, for some time, were even lead by a foreigner.

The generals here, luckily, don't have to worry about neighboring countries occupying part of their country and arming their citizens and trying to create a civil war. Luckily. Well, I guess a bit in the south perhaps?

[BATHIK]

"Ukraine citizen" is just a passport, it says nothing about holder's personal identity - whether people feel themselves part of a Russian world or part of Europe. There are millions of Ukrainians for whom Russians are not foreigners and not occupiers but a family. Their Ukrainian identity is a legacy of Soviet Union where Russian/Ukrainian distinction was meaningless.

Maidan nationalists who illegally took power in Kiev have no right to claim Donbass as "their country", they have to win acceptance from people first.

That's basically what's wrong with saying that "foreigners occupy their country". It's not foreigners and it's not theirs.

Lack of legitimacy is what Russians say when asked about Budapest agreements - at the time they did not recognize post-Maidan government as a legitimate successor to the state Russians signed the agreements with. They saw it as an illegal junta projecting power through masked thugs roaming the streets.

Ukraine as a state collapsed, president fled, police and army withdrew, Maidan grabbed Kiev, Russians grabbed Crimea, pro-Russians in the East grabbed whatever they could - it was free for all.

[lovetotravel]

It doesn't matter how an individual feels. Nor how a group of people fee. Ukraine is a sovereign country. For changes to be made, it has to be put to a vote. As far as annexing part of the country to Russia, that vote hasn't happened. And you can't just do it in one particular area. It has to be nationwide. Just like they did in Scotland.

Failed or not, it's a sovereign country with laws that need to be complied with. That's not happening now. And thus, illegal. The world knows this, but some obviously do not or just don't care.

[BATHIK]

Back at the end of February there was no sovereign state of Ukraine, it collapsed and masked thugs with baseball bats took over.

Crimea voted to excuse themselves from post-Maidan Ukraine and they owed absolutely nothing to the new regime in Kiev.

When Maidan revolutionaries chased elected president out of power they lost all claims to rights and privileges afforded to the former government.

[Matej]

No one can predicts the future, but I think it's quite possible that Ukraine will gain Crimean peninsula back in a few(several) years.

I know it's optimistic scenario, but remember, dictators fall and also remember that Kremlin in fact consolidated Ukrainians. 90% Ukrainians are proud of their country.

(For Kremlin fans, I'm not talking about military action)

Nikita Khrushchev transferred Crimea to Ukrainian control in 1954, on 300th anniversary of Cossacks'(Bohdan Khmelnytsky) swore an oath of allegiance to the Russian Czar, Alexis in 1654; this symbolic Khrushchev's gesture also had a very practical reason - logistic.

Crimea has always been heavily endowed region, financially(1.5$ billion per year and Russia has promised much more) also water, electricity, oil and gas supply depends on Ukraine infrastructure and resources/sources(water, electricity ...)

We all know, the bigger dedication, the bigger and more painful hangover ...

Few weeks ago billboards appeared there saying glory to Ukraine ... Russian investments? Gambling zone?, Kerch Strait bridge - a dream, corruption, Putin's friends,

lack of fresh water(minimal harvest size), decrease in tourism ... tons of problems.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Matej

[Lukecan]

Russian Rebels have support of the people in the regions they're fighting, thats why the Ukranian forces have a hard time. If you want the people to decide, hold a referendum.

[lovetotravel]

Russian Rebels have support of the people in the regions they're fighting, thats why the Ukranian forces have a hard time. If you want the people to decide, hold a referendum.

I think the Russian rebels are losing support of the locals.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/21/world/europe/ukraine-luhansk-residents-crave-food-water-and-peace.html

As they contemplated the disaster of the war, some people signaled that they regretted the rush toward independence and the rapid escalation into war.

“We were led like sheep,” said one woman in the neighboring region of Donetsk, who admits she voted for independence in the May referendum. She immediately asked not to be identified for fear of trouble from the separatist rebels in charge in her town.

Several people interviewed, who asked not to be quoted by name, said much of the population was scared of the rebels, some of whom have abused their power by robbing banks, stealing cars and arresting people. Even as the separatists accuse Kiev of being influenced by fascist groups, people fear the consequences of the rebels’ running their region. “People are saying, ‘Give us anything but this — Germany, Hitler, whatever,’ ” one resident of the Luhansk region said.

One big reason things should be done democratically, not with a gun pointed in your face.

[ABCer]

Some very fine words have been said comparing Scotland to Ukraine.

Scots had about 300 years of democracy and civilization behind them.

Neither Russia nor Ukraine had this privilege.

Both countries know and understand only one language - a gun in your face.

Speaking of Legitimacy - you can either have it or not. You can not have it only when it suits you.

You can have Maidan - than you must not complain about Donetsk.

You can have Kosovo - than you must not complain about Crimea.

You can have Ephiopia, Sudan, Korea, Taiwan - than you must not complain about Ukraine.

Duplicity between powerful countries may work until it is exposed. Than Diplomacy turns to guns.

Than all agreements ever signed turn into toilet paper.

Putin needs a hot spot in Ukraine for internal reasons.

But so does USA, Europe, NATO even China.

You enter a long dark tunnel. You never know where it leads or how and where it's going to end.

And the tragic lack of strong and clever Statesmanship among Ukrainian Leaders is not helpful.

And absense of Law and Order both in Russia and Ukraine is not helpful.

The thieves on top of Russia, Ukraine, USA and Europe will not lose much. People of all these countries will pay in many ways.

And NO, I'm not a communist, NOT a socialist, NOT EVEN a liberal.

Edited September 21, 2014 by ABCer

[Matej]

brilliant comparison of difference between real referendum in Scotland and fake one in Crimea.

https://twitter.com/edwardlucas/status/510717257388130304

Edited September 21, 2014 by Matej

[lovetotravel]

brilliant comparison of difference between real referendum in Scotland and fake one in Crimea.

https://twitter.com/edwardlucas/status/510717257388130304

LOL. That pretty much sums it up!

[hard124get]

It doesn't matter how an individual feels. Nor how a group of people fee. Ukraine is a sovereign country. For changes to be made, it has to be put to a vote. As far as annexing part of the country to Russia, that vote hasn't happened. And you can't just do it in one particular area. It has to be nationwide. Just like they did in Scotland.

Failed or not, it's a sovereign country with laws that need to be complied with. That's not happening now. And thus, illegal. The world knows this, but some obviously do not or just don't care.

Syria is a sovereign country too. The difference is that when US is doing the invading it is justified. The vote was just in Scotland, the vote was just in Crimea. Russia killed no one, they have a treaty to keep 25,000 troops there, they speak Russian and it was part of Russia until 1954.

[lovetotravel]

It doesn't matter how an individual feels. Nor how a group of people fee. Ukraine is a sovereign country. For changes to be made, it has to be put to a vote. As far as annexing part of the country to Russia, that vote hasn't happened. And you can't just do it in one particular area. It has to be nationwide. Just like they did in Scotland.

Failed or not, it's a sovereign country with laws that need to be complied with. That's not happening now. And thus, illegal. The world knows this, but some obviously do not or just don't care.

Syria is a sovereign country too. The difference is that when US is doing the invading it is justified. The vote was just in Scotland, the vote was just in Crimea. Russia killed no one, they have a treaty to keep 25,000 troops there, they speak Russian and it was part of Russia until 1954.

Please show a reference to US troops on the ground in Syria. Apples to oranges.

Crimea never had a vote. Total sham.

I think the relatives of those killed during the Crimea invasion might argue with your statement nobody was killed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_crisis#Incidents

Maybe Russia could have done what the US did when they were kicked out of the Philippines??? It's all about respect for another nation's sovereign territory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Naval_Base_Subic_Bay#Closure

Many months before the expiration of the Military Bases Agreement of 1947 intense negotiations between the governments of the United States and the Philippines began. These negotiations resulted in the Treaty of Friendship, Peace and Cooperation between the United States and the Republic of the Philippines.^[11] This would have extended the lease of the American bases in the Philippines. On September 13, 1991, the Philippine Senate rejected the ratification of this treaty.^[12]

In December 1991, the two governments were again in talks to extend the withdrawal of American forces for three years but this broke down as the United States refused to detail their withdrawal plans or to answer if nuclear weapons were kept on base. Finally on December 27, President Corazon Aquino, who had previously fought to delay the U.S. pullout to cushion the country's battered economy, issued a formal notice for the U.S. to leave by the end of 1992.^[13] Naval Station Subic Bay was the U.S.'s largest overseas defense facility after Clark Air Base was closed.

During 1992, tons of material including drydocks and equipment,^[14] were shipped to various Naval Stations. Ship-repair and maintenance yards as well as supply depots were relocated to other Asian countries including Japan and Singapore. Finally, on November 24, 1992, the American Flag was lowered in Subic for the last time and the last 1,416 Sailors and Marines at Subic Bay Naval Base left by plane from Naval Air Station Cubi Point and by the USS Belleau Wood. This withdrawal marked the first time since the 16th century that no foreign military forces were present in the Philippines.^[15]

[BATHIK]

Crimea never had a vote. Total sham.

Ukraine never recognized Crimean votes - FTFY.

It was their third referendum, results of the two previous ones were ignored, third time lucky, I guess.

During this summer Crimean schools were getting ready for a new school year and they polled parents what they wanted. On the entire peninsula only in two schools parents requested Ukrainian as language of instruction, the rest went for Russian. Ukrainian itself is still taught there but as a separate subject. One of the remaining Ukrainian schools, used to be for the Ukrainian elites, had to cut their enrollment to one class per grade level because Russian speaking parents took their kids elsewhere.

What was the result of Poroshenko's visit to the US? What did that overwhelming support translated into? Afaik, only 46 mil dollars and a pledge to back up upto 1 bil in debt obligations. No preferred Nato ally status, no weapons, nothing substantial. 46 mil is like a dollar to each Ukrainian, it's a joke of a help. Standing ovations could be carried in Poroshenko's heart forever, though.

[BATHIK]

At the time Crimeans decided to hold their referendum parliament in Kiev looked like this:

Edited September 21, 2014 by BATHIK

[Asiantravel]

How can anyone honestly take anything that the Ukraine government says seriously. Firstly Russia allegedly shoots down a passenger jet. Now this! They are so desperate to engage the West in a war with Russia.

Ukraine is claiming that Russia has broken the truce... with the use of a tactical nuclear weapon at Luhansk airport.

http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/750516

[lovetotravel]

At the time Crimeans decided to hold their referendum parliament in Kiev looked like this:

These pics are from a nut job group. As stated here:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27173857

Originally set up as an alliance of ultra-nationalist groups in November 2013, the Right Sector is now a party and its leader, Dmytro Yarosh, is running for president in the 25 May election - although his poll rating is negligible.

Hardly representative of the entire nation. Same with the rebels in the East.

[Matej]

Live stream from protest in Moscow against Putin's aggressive policy towards Ukraine.

and of course twitter: #маршмира

https://twitter.com/hashtag/%D0%BC%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%88%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%B0?f=realtime&src=hash

[BATHIK]

<snip>

Re. pix of a nut job group - exactly, lunatics have taken over asylum there and Crimeans bailed.

Here's Reuters waxing lyrical glories of the "nut job group" activist:

In Ukraine turbulence, a lad from Lviv becomes the toast of Kiev

[Exsexyman]

The whole story with Russians using nukes in Ukraine is nicely summarized here:

‘They’ll ridicule us’: Ukraine defense minister ‘claims’ Russia used nukes

Re. pix of a nut job group - exactly, lunatics have taken over asylum there and Crimeans bailed.

Here's Reuters waxing lyrical glories of the "nut job group" activist:

In Ukraine turbulence, a lad from Lviv becomes the toast of Kiev

The lunatics took over the asylum when the US sponsored coup overthrew the elected government and installed their tame Western poodle 'Yats' as Prime Minister, with the help of course of the Neo Nazi thugs now running the show in Kiev. Of course 'Yats' didn't last long, he couldn't stand the heat and left the kitchen. As for evil Vlad using nukes in Ukraine, the sad thing is that the likes of Publicus desperately want to believe it, i'm sure in the parallel world he inhabits it is a fact.

'Evil Pu is very handy

From separating kiddies from their candy.

[craigt3365]

A few off topic posts have been removed from view and some links to dubious news sources removed.

[BATHIK]

Here's Ukrainian defense minister sighing his oath in parliament back in July:

It's a circus out there.

In recent news - Poroshenko said that 60-65 percent of Ukraine's military equipment on the front-line had been destroyed. That's a huge, huge number. Here's Reuters source.

He also said that "Kiev would not go ahead with setting up a proposed buffer zone until the violations stopped."

[BATHIK]

And here's a doze of happiness on this cloudy Monday

Pharrell Williams "Happy" Remake by Crimean Residents:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oj0m-QVXFZ0

[Proofreader]

There is a new joke going around: Russians sighed with relief when Scotland voted “No” to independence otherwise Putin would have been blamed again and EU would impose a new set of sanctions on Russia.