Moscow rally against Ukraine crisis

[webfact]

Ukraine crisis: Thousands march in Moscow anti-war rally

(BBC) Tens of thousands of people have marched in Moscow to protest against Russia's involvement in the Ukraine conflict.

People carrying Russian and Ukrainian flags chanted "No to war!" and "Stop lying!" Similar rallies took place in St Petersburg and other Russian cities.

Ukraine accuses Russia of arming rebels in the east and sending Russian troops across the border. Moscow denies this.

More than 3,000 people have died in fighting since April.

A truce was agreed on 5 September but there have been repeated violations since then.

Full story: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29300213


-- BBC 2014-09-22

[lovetotravel]

Funny. Even the Russians are now saying their government has not been telling the truth. At least the truth is known now.

From the above article:

Gen Breedlove said that since last week, some Russian forces inside Ukraine had returned to Russia but remained available to "bring their military force to bear on Ukraine".

I guess these fighting troops "vacation" is over and they are heading back home? LOL

[rickirs]

Sounds like President Putin needs to consult with Gen. Prayuth on how to regulate public dissent. Putin after all was freely elected, holds no military leadership rank, does not have absolute power over the Russian Federal Assembly, and that makes him a lot more vulnerable to accountability by the Russian People for his government policies. But the fact that Putin has not reacted aggressively against the public dissent (thus far) shows that he will take public criticism in stride and, hopefully, reconsider his hostile policies towards Ukraine. Such can be the power of the People in a democratic society.

[geezer2]

Looks like the sanctions are hurting the people now,cant get their imported foods..Power to the people..

[Marknreston]

Sounds like President Putin needs to consult with Gen. Prayuth on how to regulate public dissent. Putin after all was freely elected, holds no military leadership rank, does not have absolute power over the Russian Federal Assembly, and that makes him a lot more vulnerable to accountability by the Russian People for his government policies. But the fact that Putin has not reacted aggressively against the public dissent (thus far) shows that he will take public criticism in stride and, hopefully, reconsider his hostile policies towards Ukraine. Such can be the power of the People in a democratic society.Sounds like President Putin needs to consult with Gen. Prayuth on how to regulate public dissent. Putin after all was freely elected, holds no military leadership rank, does not have absolute power over the Russian Federal Assembly, and that makes him a lot more vulnerable to accountability by the Russian People for his government policies. But the fact that Putin has not reacted aggressively against the public dissent (thus far) shows that he will take public criticism in stride and, hopefully, reconsider his hostile policies towards Ukraine. Such can be the power of the People in a democratic society.

Did you really say Putin was freely elected? He has no control over the Assembly and imply he puts up with public criticism unless it is useful to him? Worst of all do you really believe Russia is a democratic state???

[BATHIK]

This is the old "white ribbon" crowd that has been protesting against Putin for years. Would be like reds having a rally in Thailand - yes, there are lost of them but their credibility in the eyes of their opponents is zero no matter what they say.

Just a couple of days ago Khodorkovskiy, that oligarch that was jailed and then pardoned by Putin, graciously offered to become a Russian president in case there's a regime change there.

Like Thaksin, Khodorkovskiy is legally represented by Robert Amsterdam.

[alexshel]

Putin was not freely elected at all. Look at the mass protests that happened after Putin made up a bit more than 50% votes for himself.

To the previous writer ВАТНIK:

I participated yesterday in anti-war and anti-Putin march. I don't know what do u mean by old white ribbon crowd, but there were thousends of nice, sober people who are not affected by TV and other media totally managed and controlled by Putin and his KGB mates. The people participated in this march freely unlike pro-Putin zombies who are usually delivered to their mass shows very organised on busses (like in old soviet times).

Do not change the topic, Khodorkovskiy is a smart positive person, a victim of Putin's regime. He did not participate in the march yesterday due to impossibility to return to Russia after 10 years spent in jail illegally. There is no common between him and Taksin apart of their advocate. Robert Amsterdam started helping Taksin only some time later after he stopped working with Khodorkovskiy

[BATHIK]

I don't know what do u mean by old white ribbon crowd

Let me google that for you: White Ribbon protests in Russia

I'm not going to discuss merits or motives of the protesters or moral integrity of Khodorkovskiy, we've seen it here in Thailand already - these discussions lead nowhere. I just said that they have zero credibility in the eyes of Putin supporters, that you cannot deny.

thousends of nice, sober people who are not affected by TV and other media totally managed and controlled by Putin and his KGB mates. The people participated in this march freely unlike pro-Putin zombies who are usually delivered to their mass shows very organised on busses (like in old soviet times).

Isn't it in itself proof that Putin's Russia is not a totalitarian state many here make it to be and that Russians are not brainwashed zombies?

[MZurf]

I don't know what do u mean by old white ribbon crowd

Let me google that for you: White Ribbon protests in Russia

I'm not going to discuss merits or motives of the protesters or moral integrity of Khodorkovskiy, we've seen it here in Thailand already - these discussions lead nowhere. I just said that they have zero credibility in the eyes of Putin supporters, that you cannot deny.

thousends of nice, sober people who are not affected by TV and other media totally managed and controlled by Putin and his KGB mates. The people participated in this march freely unlike pro-Putin zombies who are usually delivered to their mass shows very organised on busses (like in old soviet times).

Isn't it in itself proof that Putin's Russia is not a totalitarian state many here make it to be and that Russians are not brainwashed zombies?

Nope, it just goes to show how successful Putin has been in brainwashing the majority of Russians. If Putin in any way had felt threatened by the demonstrations there would have been blood spilt - a lot of blood.

[ABCer]

There never was, is or will be any Democracy in Russia and Ukraine. Not in the last 1000 years. This is historical fact.

As to these demonstrations - they only prove the above.

There should have been hundreds of thousands of people both in Ukraine and Russia in the streets protesting even the idea of a war between these two countries.

More importantly there should have been massive refusals of the soldiers to go and shoot at each side.

As to their respective Parlaments ('Duma') - nothing but a rubber stamp function. Russians have a moking name 'Dura' (female for a fool) for their institution.

No opposition to warmongering happened. That is Eastern Democracy for you. For the vast majority of Russians and Ukrainians "Intelligent" was and still is a swear word.

The combined result of brainwashing by Massmedia and massive alcoholism for generations.

Of course there are many smart thinking talented individuals in both countries. Most of them either in the West or not popular at home.

In short - these 'rallies' are of no consequence IMHO.

Edited September 23, 2014 by ABCer

[BATHIK]

it just goes to show how successful Putin has been in brainwashing the majority of Russians. If Putin in any way had felt threatened by the demonstrations there would have been blood spilt - a lot of blood.

Maybe, but two things need to be mentioned.

This idea implies that only brainwashed zombies support Putin and Russia's policy in Ukraine. That they are all idiots and there isn't a single rational individual among them. This is obviously wrong, and it's the same mentality as displayed by Kiev where they can't even fathom that people of Donbass might genuinely oppose Maidan and new Kiev regime - they are all terrorists, zombies, and Russian infiltrators who need to be exterminated, with nukes if necessary.

Well, you are not entitled to universal love and you are not the holder of universal truth. People who do not like you and oppose you have exactly the same right to existence. This tendency to dehumanize the opposition leads to blood, not peace, despite what those Moscow protesters display on their banners.

Second, if any state feels threatened it has the right to defend itself and it has the right to the use of force. Meaning that if Moscow protests evolve into Maidan like revolution then Kremlin would be well within its rights to suppress it.

It might get ugly but that's actually part of modern demonstrators plan - provoke violence, scream "murder" at the top of their lungs, and hope that outside pressure and guilt would force the government to give in. That's what reds did here in 2010, for example.

[lovetotravel]

it just goes to show how successful Putin has been in brainwashing the majority of Russians. If Putin in any way had felt threatened by the demonstrations there would have been blood spilt - a lot of blood.

Maybe, but two things need to be mentioned.

This idea implies that only brainwashed zombies support Putin and Russia's policy in Ukraine. That they are all idiots and there isn't a single rational individual among them. This is obviously wrong, and it's the same mentality as displayed by Kiev where they can't even fathom that people of Donbass might genuinely oppose Maidan and new Kiev regime - they are all terrorists, zombies, and Russian infiltrators who need to be exterminated, with nukes if necessary.

Well, you are not entitled to universal love and you are not the holder of universal truth. People who do not like you and oppose you have exactly the same right to existence. This tendency to dehumanize the opposition leads to blood, not peace, despite what those Moscow protesters display on their banners.

Second, if any state feels threatened it has the right to defend itself and it has the right to the use of force. Meaning that if Moscow protests evolve into Maidan like revolution then Kremlin would be well within its rights to suppress it.

It might get ugly but that's actually part of modern demonstrators plan - provoke violence, scream "murder" at the top of their lungs, and hope that outside pressure and guilt would force the government to give in. That's what reds did here in 2010, for example.

Part of your comment if well put. To suggest all supporters of Putin are brainwashed is not true. And that people who do not like you or your viewpoint have the same right to existence. Well put.

Unfortunately, these are things that are part of Putin's strategy. Don't let the people have free and fair media (brainwashed) and don't let people with opposing views be allowed to express their opinion. It's well known these are big issues in Russia. How many are in jail just because they voiced their opinion? Or how many are now dead, Russia has a bad reputation for knocking off reporters who go against the Kremlin.

As far as Maidan, that's what democracy is all about. Giving the people the power to protest peacefully. And it should never be suppressed by any government as long as the protests are peaceful and held within the law. Let's not get onto the reds here. That's another subject and we don't want to go off topic.

[BATHIK]

Maidan resulted in government overthrow - way beyond legitimate goals of peaceful and democratic protests. Their reps negotiated a democratic way out with early elections but Maidan rejected it, the rest is history.

Tens of thousands of people marching in Moscow is living, walking proof that Kremlin's propaganda and grip on media are not as total as you think. My further point was that it's wrong to assume that all non-brainwashed people oppose Putin and Russian policy on Ukraine, there are rational arguments in support of it, too.

The whole idea that brainwashed population matters is false. Yes, they help at election times and in opinion polls but in real life no one ever listens to them, their existence is not an argument and not a big bargaining chip in actual negotiations. At best you can ask your negotiating partners for time to "unbrainwash" your zombies and then use this time for something else.

[lcp0761]

Funny. Even the Russians are now saying their government has not been telling the truth. At least the truth is known now.

From the above article:

Gen Breedlove said that since last week, some Russian forces inside Ukraine had returned to Russia but remained available to "bring their military force to bear on Ukraine".

I guess these fighting troops "vacation" is over and they are heading back home? LOL

These Russian protesters should be careful as a Govt ordered round-up has been rumored.