RTGS transcription

[Kanga Japan]

Could anyone possibly transcribe this into the RTGS system:

VANILLA EXTRACT - สารสกัดวานิลลา

Thanks for your help.

[fire69water]

Sansakat Vanila? V and W are interchangeable and since the original English is V, better stick with V than W. Sure, Thai doesnt have V consonant but they are still used widely in rtgs, e.g., Suvarnabhumi.

[Kanga Japan]

Dear fire69water,

Thank you for your reply.

Does that mean that the correct RTGS spelling would be: SANSAKAT VANILA?

I thought it might be something like WANINLA.

Thanks for your help.

[AyG]

วานิลลา is often spelled วานิลา, which more accurately reflects the pronunciation.

SANSAKAT WANILA

[Kanga Japan]

Dear AyG,

Thank you for that additional information.

The site I usually use to transcribe Thai script into the RTGS system came up with SAROTKAT WANINLA, which was weird.

Sorry to bother you again, but do you think I should put both versions (วานิลลา and วานิลา) in, or just วานิลา.

If I do use both, what would วานิลลา be transcribed as?

Thanks for your help.

[AyG]

As I'm pretty sure I've mentioned before, the thai-language.com site uses a computer algorithm to generate the pronunciations (including RTGS) when a definitive pronunciation hasn't been provided. (The Royal Institute Dictionary, for example, gives the correct pronunciation of irregularly pronounced words. This word, however, isn't in that dictionary.)

The TL pronunciation is understandable and comes from parsing สารสกัด as a perfectly reasonable สา-รส-กัด [sA-ROT-KAT], rather than สาร-ส-กัด [sAN-SA-KAT]. However, the latter is correct.

วานิลลา is the more common spelling, so I'd suggest that's the one to use. Thai is very keen on reflecting the spelling of the original foreign word, be it English, Sanskrit, Pali, whatever, rather than reflecting the actual pronunciation in Thai.

The pronunciation is WANILA, rather than WANINLA. It's would have been nice if a karan were used to show that the second lor ling isn't pronounced, but that hasn't happened. There are quite a few other words like this in Thai. The one that springs to mind that you probably know is สามารถ (can, to have the ability to) which is pronounced saa-maat, with the ror reua being ignored. In this case the word is from the Sanskrit "สมรฺถ".

[Kanga Japan]

Dear AyG,

Thank you for that information.

You did explain to me before that TL has its downfalls, particularly relating to the pronunciation of foreign loan words and I think I understand it a bit more now, thanks to your additional explanation, although this is somewhat above my current level of Thai script reading.

I will use the script which you suggest.

Sincerely appreciated.

[fire69water]

Actually, V or W is acceptable for ว. If a native Thai would to encounter V, he would still read as ว or W. Since RTGS is generally for English reading audience, it is better to use V as Vanilla is the original English word.

Also, your Thai word for vanilla has an extra ล rendering the pronunciation inaccurately as wa-nin-la. You shouldn't add this extra ล because Thai pronunciation render this extra ล as a final consonant of 'N'. So the correct Thai spelling should be วานิลา, making it closer to the English pronunciation.

[AyG]

V and W are interchangeable and since the original English is V, better stick with V than W. Sure, Thai doesnt have V consonant but they are still used widely in rtgs, e.g., Suvarnabhumi.

Actually, V or W is acceptable for ว.

Respectfully, you clearly do not understand the RTGS; there is no provision to use "V" rather than "W" for wor waen.

And Suvarnabhumi is not according to the RTGS. The RTGS version would be "Suwannaphum". As is often the case in Thailand, someone (or a committee) has made a transliteration based upon their personal ideas, rather than following the official RTGS system.

[DavidHouston]

Is this the source for RTGS? http://www.royin.go.th/upload/246/FileUpload/416_2157.pdf

[Kanga Japan]

Dear fire69water and AyG,

Thank you for your comments. I think I will just watch this one from the side, as, considering my Thai level, I am not in a position to comment.

DavidHouston,

If you are referring to the RTGS transliterating system I use, it is the Thai-language.com one.

Regards and thanks to you all.

[fire69water]

Kanga, it actually depends on who you think your transcribing is for. As I have said, RTGS is for the benefits of international audience. The original word is vanilla, so when you transcribe it, it would be strange if you choose wanila because international readers only know vanilla. If you transcribe it as vanila, your readers can guess this is a spelling variant.

Also, since the Thai government doesn't follow the RTGS religiously, why should you?

[Mole]

This appears to be one of the quirkiness of Thai language. Certain loan words can either be transcribed to Thai script according to how it's phonetically pronounced or according to how it's written in the foreign language.

Sometime words such as วานิลลา (and I remember there were some other also that was also discussed in other threads) where one can either transcribe according to how it's spelled in English with 2 l, or how it's pronounced in which case, because of quirkiness of Thai orthography, one must use only 1 ล.

In English orthography, words with double consonants usually means that the associated vowel is short, while in Thai script, short and long vowel are separated into different characters, thus making the second consonant redundant.

However, under most circumstances, Thais will recognize a particular loan word written in Thai and read it correctly according to the way it's supposed to be pronounced in English. In other words, most Thais will know that วานิลลา is Vanilla and correctly read this word as วานิลา

Now, you will have to make a decision exactly what your intended purpose of providing the RTGS transcription. If it's to mindlessly transcribe a particular Thai word exactly according to how it's spelled, or provide it as a guide on how it will usually be pronounced by a Thai.

So for วานิลลา, you can either transcribe it to wa nin la or wa ni la.

[Kanga Japan]

Dear fire69water,

Thank you for your comments.

Actually, I am including the RTGS system, as quite a few forum members strongly suggested that I should - perhaps for those who have some knowledge of Thai.

On top of that, as those who have no knowledge of the Thai language would find the RTGS system transliteration difficult to understand the actual Thai pronunciation, I am also including another simplified pronunciation column. I feel that it is necessary.

I sincerely appreciate your comments on this subject.

[Kanga Japan]

Dear Mole,

Thank you very much for your comments and the time you have taken to explain these details of the Thai language.

As you can see from my reply to fire69water, I am including both the RTGS reading and also another column with a simplified, easier to understand (or in my opinion anyway) reading, for those with absolutely no knowledge of the Thai language. Of course this will not be exactly the same as the Thai pronunciation, but I am hoping that it will be of some assistance.

Your comments and information, as always, are much appreciated.

[Richard W]

Now, you will have to make a decision exactly what your intended purpose of providing the RTGS transcription. If it's to mindlessly transcribe a particular Thai word exactly according to how it's spelled, or provide it as a guide on how it will usually be pronounced by a Thai.

So for วานิลลา, you can either transcribe it to wa nin la or wa ni la.

The RTGS is supposed to be based on pronunciation. If you wanted spelling, you could in theory go for the precise system - wanĭ̂(l)la. Mind you, good luck making out the circumflex on top of the breve on top of the ‘i’. I’m not convinced the precise system could be inverted even if one used ‘b’ and ‘d’ for final บ and ด.

[Mole]

Yes, I KNOW it's based on pronunciation!

But what I said was Kanga's intended purpose of providing the RTGS, to provide a guide on how the word is pronounced exactly according to how it's spelled (but not how most people would pronounce), or according to how people would pronounce that written Thai word, which would not be according to how it's written.

Why would one need to use any obscure system hardly anyone is familiar with and unable to decipher properly?

Or maybe she should just include it for the coolness sake so she can brag about that one knows the name of this obscure system and also lucky enough to know how the circumflex means? Maybe she should include a whole chapter in her book as a guide on how to use this obscure system as well as a detailed guide on what that circumflex as well as breve means.

RTGS is a STANDARD anyone learning Thai will have to get familiar with at some point, which is precisely why RTGS should also be included in Kanga's work.

[AyG]

RTGS is a STANDARD anyone learning Thai will have to get familiar with at some point, which is precisely why RTGS should also be included in Kanga's work.

I believe it was I who originally suggested that Kanga should include the RTGS, and that was a pragmatic recommendation based purely upon the fact that it is the standard. However, it is utterly hopeless for conveying the pronunciation of any word since it omits vowel length and tone, and ignores differences between certain consonants and vowels.

The alternative would be to use a system such as the Mary Haas one, but that involves use of characters such as ɔ, ʉ, ɛ and ə which most people will be unfamiliar with. And anyway, even if a non-Thai speaker could master all the sounds (which is doubtful for a native English speaker - ป and ต are extremely difficult for such a person), then the tones would remain an impossibility.

In other words, there's no good system for representing Thai using the Latin alphabet that gives a non-Thai speaker any chance of pronouncing any word remotely correctly, so I thought Phuket, use the standard.

However, as for "anyone learning Thai will have to get familiar with [the RTGS]", that really isn't true. Though my Thai is reasonably advanced, I've had absolutely no reason to look into it until Kanga started her project. I still need to make frequent reference to the rule book. The only use of RTGS is to provide a consistent way of writing Thai in Latin script for reference purposes, e.g. road signs, filing books in foreign libraries. It's a pity, though, that even Thai road sign writers don't follow it; Thai people tend to make things up as they go along.

[Kanga Japan]

Dear RichardW, Mole and AyG,

Thank you all for your ideas and comments. They are much appreciated.

I think I will stick with including the RTGS reading and my simplified pronunciation version. That is as close as I can get, without having to include tone marks, etc., and, basically it is not a language application. I cannot change it at this stage.

Later on, once the apps are out, I will be considering adding sound clips.

Again, thanks for all your ideas.

[Morakot]

Thai is very keen on reflecting the spelling of the original foreign word, be it English, Sanskrit, Pali, whatever, rather than reflecting the actual pronunciation in Thai.

Thanks for that. Very helpful!

[Richard W]

Yes, I KNOW it's based on pronunciation!

But what I said was Kanga's intended purpose of providing the RTGS, to provide a guide on how the word is pronounced exactly according to how it's spelled (but not how most people would pronounce), or according to how people would pronounce that written Thai word, which would not be according to how it's written.

The point is that RTGS is to reflect the pronunciation - silent letters find no representation. Therefore the RTGS is WANILA. With long words, RTGS can be a useful supplement to Thai spelling for indicating the syllabification.

[AyG]

Yes, I KNOW it's based on pronunciation!

But what I said was Kanga's intended purpose of providing the RTGS, to provide a guide on how the word is pronounced exactly according to how it's spelled (but not how most people would pronounce), or according to how people would pronounce that written Thai word, which would not be according to how it's written.

The point is that RTGS is to reflect the pronunciation - silent letters find no representation. Therefore the RTGS is WANILA. With long words, RTGS can be a useful supplement to Thai spelling for indicating the syllabification.

How I'd love to think the RTGS is a useful supplement for anything. However, does it really help with the syllabification? Is it WA-NI-LA or WAN-I-LA?

[DavidHouston]

As Winston Churchill once said about democracy, isn't the choice of Romanizations in this context a question of finding the least bad method among all the other bad methods of rendering Thai?

[Richard W]

How I'd love to think the RTGS is a useful supplement for anything. However, does it really help with the syllabification? Is it WA-NI-LA or WAN-I-LA?

WAN-I-LA as you put it would be transliterated wan-ila, while WA-NI-LA is transliterated wanila. A more typical case of help is Phatthaya v. Phatya.