FBI sees rise in US mass shootings

[beechguy]

This is why discourse on this topic is impossible. Gun rights advocates will label anyone exposing the truth as "hysterical, loony liberals" spreading "propaganda." Gun rights advocates simply live in an imaginary world. That would be fine with me if it weren't for the fact that thousands of men, women and children are shot and injured or killed every year in America.

Of course, this is your opinion and much like everyone, you have yours which you are entitled to...

You might tell that to the second victim in the Muslim beheading attack on factory workers in Vaughn, Missouri... Perhaps you don't know about this incident that took place 2 days ago as it has not made it to TV just yet, which is odd in itself... A muslim was fired from his job at a meat packing for attempting to convert workers to islam and got into an argument with workers on the validity of the muslim law that states that stoning women was perfectly acceptable... After he was fired, he returned to the plant, attacked and beheaded a 56 year old woman and had attacked and was stabbing another woman when the COO of the company shot the man 4 times... Had he not been armed, many more would be dead now...

So you can take your "opinion" and send it to the family of the woman that was saved by the fact that someone was armed when some religious nutcase went on a rampage...

He was policeman, part time volunteer.

If everyone has guns there's a good chance a lot of people are going to get shot. Throw in the psychology of "mental overload" as one poster rightly said above, throw in gang crime . . . you get the numbers you get in the US regarding homicide by firearm.

It was Oklahoma, and plenty of people carry weapons, fortunately someone had one with them. Calling 911 wasn't accomplishing a lot at the time, was it? Also, to clarify, the gentlemen that did the shooting is a Reserve Deputy Sheriff, but the Chief Operating Officer of the company. Too bad he didn't put one more in the guy's head and be done with it.

[ClutchClark]

This is why discourse on this topic is impossible. Gun rights advocates will label anyone exposing the truth as "hysterical, loony liberals" spreading "propaganda." Gun rights advocates simply live in an imaginary world. That would be fine with me if it weren't for the fact that thousands of men, women and children are shot and injured or killed every year in America.

Of course, this is your opinion and much like everyone, you have yours which you are entitled to...

You might tell that to the second victim in the Muslim beheading attack on factory workers in Vaughn, Missouri... Perhaps you don't know about this incident that took place 2 days ago as it has not made it to TV just yet, which is odd in itself... A muslim was fired from his job at a meat packing for attempting to convert workers to islam and got into an argument with workers on the validity of the muslim law that states that stoning women was perfectly acceptable... After he was fired, he returned to the plant, attacked and beheaded a 56 year old woman and had attacked and was stabbing another woman when the COO of the company shot the man 4 times... Had he not been armed, many more would be dead now...

So you can take your "opinion" and send it to the family of the woman that was saved by the fact that someone was armed when some religious nutcase went on a rampage...

That incident was the result of a "nutcase" first and foremost. He had only converted to Islam in recent months, had attempted to convert his co-workers and was dismissed. He reacted by driving his vehicle into the building and started killing whomever he could find in retaliation, which happened to be two women.

So this is actually just your typical American going "postal" scenario, which occurs with regularity except this is one of the few nutcases who didn't have a firearm on him and had to resort to just using a knife...otherwise the death toll would have likely been higher.

[ClutchClark]

This is why discourse on this topic is impossible. Gun rights advocates will label anyone exposing the truth as "hysterical, loony liberals" spreading "propaganda." Gun rights advocates simply live in an imaginary world. That would be fine with me if it weren't for the fact that thousands of men, women and children are shot and injured or killed every year in America.

Of course, this is your opinion and much like everyone, you have yours which you are entitled to...

You might tell that to the second victim in the Muslim beheading attack on factory workers in Vaughn, Missouri... Perhaps you don't know about this incident that took place 2 days ago as it has not made it to TV just yet, which is odd in itself... A muslim was fired from his job at a meat packing for attempting to convert workers to islam and got into an argument with workers on the validity of the muslim law that states that stoning women was perfectly acceptable... After he was fired, he returned to the plant, attacked and beheaded a 56 year old woman and had attacked and was stabbing another woman when the COO of the company shot the man 4 times... Had he not been armed, many more would be dead now...

So you can take your "opinion" and send it to the family of the woman that was saved by the fact that someone was armed when some religious nutcase went on a rampage...

He was policeman, part time volunteer.

If everyone has guns there's a good chance a lot of people are going to get shot. Throw in the psychology of "mental overload" as one poster rightly said above, throw in gang crime . . . you get the numbers you get in the US regarding homicide by firearm.

It was Oklahoma, and plenty of people carry weapons, fortunately someone had one with them. Calling 911 wasn't accomplishing a lot at the time, was it? Also, to clarify, the gentlemen that did the shooting is a Reserve Deputy Sheriff, but the Chief Operating Officer of the company. Too bad he didn't put one more in the guy's head and be done with it.

Actually, you had better think back to your Concealed Carry class and US Law because you seem to forget that to "put one in the guys head" after he was no longer a threat is called Murder. Fortunately, by being a law enforcement officer, this Deputy Sheriff was well aware of the law and acted responsibly.

[beechguy]

I lived in Oklahoma for 10 years, I think under the circumstances, he could have done it and walked away with few questions asked. Who else was to say, the guy was no longer a threat? I would think the woman being stabbed might have had something to say about that.

[ClutchClark]

Beautiful state, I worked a couple seasons at Wichita Mountains Reserve way back.

[NeverSure]

NRA and the Tea Party can sure be proud.

The NRA nor the Tea Party are shooting anyone. In fact, the majority of mass shooters tend to be reregistered Democrats. Most Democrats are normal individuals. It's the liberal wackos that come from this group who tend to be the shooters.

This link seems to refute that claim: http://www.examiner.com/article/the-idea-that-recent-mass-shooters-are-mostly-registered-democrats-is-a-myth

True. I don't understand why party affiliation is relevant, although I acknowledge that you didn't bring it up. Your link doesn't actually associate most shooters with any party at all. Some are too young to vote, others couldn't legally register to vote, others hail from states where one can't register with a particular party, and some it's unknown.

Ideology doesn't prove what "wing" they are part of although many try to make it so. But that isn't relevant either.

What they actually have in common is that they are crazy.

[beechguy]

This is why discourse on this topic is impossible. Gun rights advocates will label anyone exposing the truth as "hysterical, loony liberals" spreading "propaganda." Gun rights advocates simply live in an imaginary world. That would be fine with me if it weren't for the fact that thousands of men, women and children are shot and injured or killed every year in America.

Which truth would that be? The same one the Colorado politicians used to pass their gun control legislation?

http://www.9news.com/story/news/local/politics/2014/07/25/gun-control-colorado/13158581

Estimated background checks for 2 years, 420,000, reality 13,600 to this date, and could be a lower number because there was no way to separate if the new laws had an effect on that number.

14 full time positions unfilled, because not enough workload.

Of 13,600, there were 260 denials, and they will say they prevented those people from getting a weapon. Nonsense, if those people want a firearm, they will simply go through other channels. Only the uninformed would believe otherwise, especially those, that have haven't lived in the U.S.

I'm not a member of the NRA, but have owned or had access to firearms since childhood. I do not oppose some changes in gun control, but I do object to idiot politicians reacting in crisis mode, just to save their jobs.

[MJP]

If you want to shoot buy a Canon.

[NeverSure]

This is a great example of the lies, damn lies, and statistics put forth by the gun nuts. Point by point your post is a steaming pile of propaganda.

-snip-

Violent crime dropped drastically in NY and LA since the 90's as more gun legislation was introduced. I will not claim that is solely the result of the tougher gun laws. It would certainly contribute. Most criminologists agree that Clinton is to be credited for the drop in crime by putting thousands more police on the streets.

Damn lies, huh?

The overall violent crime rate in the US has dropped by about 50% since 1990 but you'll never get the lamestream media to report it on a regular basis. They'd rather point to that fact only in reference to places which have restricted gun control.

---------------

The last time the crime rate for serious crime – murder, rape, robbery, assault – fell to these levels, gasoline cost 29 cents a gallon and the average income for a working American was $5,807.

That was 1963.

In the past 20 years, for instance, the murder rate in the United States has dropped by almost half, from 9.8 per 100,000 people in 1991 to 5.0 in 2009. Meanwhile, robberies were down 10 percent in 2010 from the year before and 8 percent in 2009.

LINK

------------------

USA JUSTICE

Progress Watch

FBI reports a drop in crime in 2013: why the rate continues to fall

New FBI data confirm a sustained drop in the US crime rate, despite a broader definition of what constitutes rape. Creative policing, better use of data, and community involvement play a role.

LINK

LINK

[NeverSure]

The TRUTH is that cities with the strictest gun control have the highest crime rates. In cities where citizens can be armed, the crime rate is lower. An example.

"Houston is similar to Chicago in socioeconomic factors like population, density, and racial segregation. Both cities are plagued with drugs and human trafficking.

Chicago and Houston are America’s third and fourth most populous cities, respectively, each with between 2 and 3 million residents. Non-whites make up 50-60 percent of the population in both places, and the poverty levels in each city are almost identical at just under 30 percent.

Yet in 2012, there were only 217 murders in Houston — less than half of Chicago’s death toll. A major difference between the two cities: Houston has very few gun laws. Criminals there know that many citizens are well armed for self-protection (Emphasis mine.)"

READ MORE

Anti-gunners live on emotions, not facts.

[NeverSure]

If you want to shoot buy a Canon.

If you want to debate, do some work and state a claim and back it with links. If you do that research, you might change your mind based on facts rather than emotions.

Your post is far less than helpful in a debate.

[ClutchClark]

The TRUTH is that cities with the strictest gun control have the highest crime rates. In cities where citizens can be armed, the crime rate is lower. An example.

"Houston is similar to Chicago in socioeconomic factors like population, density, and racial segregation. Both cities are plagued with drugs and human trafficking.

Chicago and Houston are Americas third and fourth most populous cities, respectively, each with between 2 and 3 million residents. Non-whites make up 50-60 percent of the population in both places, and the poverty levels in each city are almost identical at just under 30 percent.

Yet in 2012, there were only 217 murders in Houston  less than half of Chicagos death toll. A major difference between the two cities: Houston has very few gun laws. Criminals there know that many citizens are well armed for self-protection (Emphasis mine.)"

READ MORE

Anti-gunners live on emotions, not facts.

It is far more complex than that. The vast majority of gun violence in Chicago is attributable to gang violence and neither the shooter or the victim would typically be allowed to legally own a firearm.

Concealed carry might reduce the risk of being a victim of gun violence in some regions of the US but the only reason to visit those demographics in major cities with high murder rates is to buy drugs.

Besides, a resident of those neighborhoods with high gun violence would be a fool to shoot a gangbanger since he and his family would be killed by the rest of the gang within 24 hours. (As was quoted to me by a hispanic son-in-law whose family still resides in such neighborhoods).

[MJP]

If you want to shoot buy a Canon.

If you want to debate, do some work and state a claim and back it with links. If you do that research, you might change your mind based on facts rather than emotions.

Your post is far less than helpful in a debate.

Why do you need a gun? What? You're really going to shoot someone?

They're toys. Shiny things to buy, look at, polish . . .

[NeverSure]

If you want to shoot buy a Canon.

If you want to debate, do some work and state a claim and back it with links. If you do that research, you might change your mind based on facts rather than emotions.

Your post is far less than helpful in a debate.

Why do you need a gun? What? You're really going to shoot someone?

They're toys. Shiny things to buy, look at, polish . . .

Emotions. No research, apparently not reading my links above, just drivel that doesn't match the facts.

And remember, the real reason the Constitution allows us to have guns is to protect us from our own government which might someday run amok.

If you read my posts and links above you'll see that places where citizens have guns have the lowest crime rates.

Now please do some research and post some links and stop shooting from the lip with no facts behind it. I worked hard on my posts and your posts are unhelpful and lacking in truth.

[MJP]

If you want to shoot buy a Canon.

If you want to debate, do some work and state a claim and back it with links. If you do that research, you might change your mind based on facts rather than emotions.

Your post is far less than helpful in a debate.

Why do you need a gun? What? You're really going to shoot someone?

They're toys. Shiny things to buy, look at, polish . . .

Emotions. No research, apparently not reading my links above, just drivel that doesn't match the facts.

And remember, the real reason the Constitution allows us to have guns is to protect us from our own government which might someday run amok.

If you read my posts and links above you'll see that places where citizens have guns have the lowest crime rates.

Now please do some research and post some links and stop shooting from the lip with no facts behind it. I worked hard on my posts and your posts are unhelpful and lacking in truth.

What do you need a gun for?

Have you ever used your gun?

[MJP]

We get on fine without firearms in the UK. We haven't had a Sandy Hook since Dunblane.

I don't know anyone in the UK who hankers after owning a firearm.

[NeverSure]

Why do you need a gun? What? You're really going to shoot someone?

They're toys. Shiny things to buy, look at, polish . . .

Emotions. No research, apparently not reading my links above, just drivel that doesn't match the facts.

And remember, the real reason the Constitution allows us to have guns is to protect us from our own government which might someday run amok.

If you read my posts and links above you'll see that places where citizens have guns have the lowest crime rates.

Now please do some research and post some links and stop shooting from the lip with no facts behind it. I worked hard on my posts and your posts are unhelpful and lacking in truth.

What do you need a gun for?

Have you ever used your gun?

You haven't earned the right to ask me those questions. I just told you the real reason that our Constitution guarantees us the right to keep and bear arms.

Your lame comments about a "Canon" and "shiny toys" disqualify you as a serious debater.

Your off the cuff ignorance and failure to actually read my posts simply doesn't doesn't deserve a reply.

[MJP]

^^ But have you ever used your gun?

[ClutchClark]

The above exchange is a simple example of cultural differences.

If everyone in the US was a responsible gun owner like NeverSure then there would be little gun violence in the US; unfortunately everyone is not a responsible gun owner and therein lies the problem.

Like everything in America today, this is a highly emotional and excitable topic that has become too polarized and everyone has drawn their line in the sand.

But this thread was more an issue of workplace violence and fortunately this particular nutjob did not have a firearm. Makes me wonder if he had priors...a prior arrest record.

[MJP]

The above exchange is a simple example of cultural differences.

If everyone in the US was a responsible gun owner like NeverSure then there would be little gun violence in the US; unfortunately everyone is not a responsible gun owner and therein lies the problem.

Like everything in America today, this is a highly emotional and excitable topic that has become too polarized and everyone has drawn their line in the sand.

But this thread was more an issue of workplace violence and fortunately this particular nutjob did not have a firearm. Makes me wonder if he had priors...a prior arrest record.

I have zero doubt NeverSure is of sound mind and perfectly safe to keep such weaponry. But it doesn't mean his next door neighbour is.

I'm just glad the UK got rid of guns after Dunblane. Mandatory five year sentence now if found with a prohibited firearm, i.e., a gun.

[NeverSure]

We get on fine without firearms in the UK. We haven't had a Sandy Hook since Dunblane.

I don't know anyone in the UK who hankers after owning a firearm.

You aren't getting along fine, and as time goes on I predict you'll be begging for guns. Your government is out of control by joining the EU and giving up your sovereign borders while you're overrun by every loser on the planet, many of them Islamists. That would have caused a revolution in the US.

There is another thread running about an Islam problem in the UK and when I read it I'm glad I'm armed.

Just this week we had a beheading of a woman by a Muslim sympathiser in the workplace. He began to attack a second woman and the CEO of the company drew his own handgun and killed the attacker. There's a thread here that tells the story but it won't get nearly as much either support or vitriol as this thread gets. It will die for lack of fitting the Brit's preconceived notions.

Will the fact that the CEO was armed and able to kill that guy before he could continue be celebrated by the lamestream media? No. What I've read in the media so far is that it was just "workplace violence," no mention of they guy's Muslim involvement, and there's no opinion about the CEO being able to shoot the bad guy. There certainly wouldn't have been time to wait for the police.

The fact is that an armed American killed an Islamist beheader and if the jihadists get out of line many more will be summarly shot.

Edited September 28, 2014 by NeverSure

[MJP]

We get on fine without firearms in the UK. We haven't had a Sandy Hook since Dunblane.

I don't know anyone in the UK who hankers after owning a firearm.

You aren't getting along fine, and as time goes on I predict you'll be begging for guns. Your government is out of control by joining the EU and giving up your sovereign borders while you're overrun by every loser on the planet, many of them Islamists. That would have caused a revolution in the US.

There is another thread running about an Islam problem in the UK and when I read it I'm glad I'm armed.

Just this week we had a beheading of a woman by a Muslim sympathiser in the workplace. He began to attack a second woman and the CEO of the company drew his own handgun and killed the attacker.

Will the fact that the CEO was armed and able to kill that guy before he could continue be celebrated by the lamestream media? No. What I've read in the media so far is that it was just "workplace violence," no mention of they guy's Muslim involvement, and there's no opinion about the CEO being able to shoot the bad guy. There certainly wouldn't have been time to wait for the police.

The fact is that an armed American killed an Islamist beheader and if the jihadists get out of line many more will be summarly shot.

Oh it's not that bad here really love.

We like a cuppa tea and a moan is all.

If we do get problems though we'll give you a call and you can defend us . . . again.

Guns are best off in the hands of professionals under strict control. The police and the army.

[ClutchClark]

Police investigators say there was no evidence to suggest the knife killing was the result of Nolen's newfound faith of Islam.

It was an act of workplace violence as a result of his being fired. He was in a rage and stabbed the victim very hard in the throat. He then stabbed the second victim multiple times.

The headline, "beheading" was chosen by the media because such sensationalism is what sells.

[MJP]

Police investigators say there was no evidence to suggest the knife killing was the result of Nolen's newfound faith of Islam.

It was an act of workplace violence as a result of his being fired. He was in a rage and stabbed the victim very hard in the throat. He then stabbed the second victim multiple times.

The headline, "beheading" was chosen by the media because such sensationalism is what sells.

I read up on this and I think it's a bit of both to be honest Clarkey.

The chap that shot him was a trained professional, i.e., a policeman (part time deputy Sheriff).

[ClutchClark]

Police investigators say there was no evidence to suggest the knife killing was the result of Nolen's newfound faith of Islam.

It was an act of workplace violence as a result of his being fired. He was in a rage and stabbed the victim very hard in the throat. He then stabbed the second victim multiple times.

The headline, "beheading" was chosen by the media because such sensationalism is what sells.

I read up on this and I think it's a bit of both to be honest Clarkey.

The chap that shot him was a trained professional, i.e., a policeman (part time deputy Sheriff).

I will stick with the police statement from investigators rather than sensationalist news outlets.

I know most TV'ers prefer the latter ;-)

And you are correct. The "chap" was a trained professional. In fact, the workplace had a rule that firearms could not be brought on the premises by employees but his senior executive position and law enforcement training allowed him to be an exception.

[MJP]

Police investigators say there was no evidence to suggest the knife killing was the result of Nolen's newfound faith of Islam.

It was an act of workplace violence as a result of his being fired. He was in a rage and stabbed the victim very hard in the throat. He then stabbed the second victim multiple times.

The headline, "beheading" was chosen by the media because such sensationalism is what sells.

I read up on this and I think it's a bit of both to be honest Clarkey.

The chap that shot him was a trained professional, i.e., a policeman (part time deputy Sheriff).

I will stick with the police statement from investigators rather than sensationalist news outlets.

I know most TV'ers prefer the latter ;-)

And you are correct. The "chap" was a trained professional. In fact, the workplace had a rule that firearms could not be brought on the premises by employees but his senior executive position and law enforcement training allowed him to be an exception.

Law. Enforcement. Training. Those are the words I was looking for.

[NeverSure]

Police investigators say there was no evidence to suggest the knife killing was the result of Nolen's newfound faith of Islam.

It was an act of workplace violence as a result of his being fired. He was in a rage and stabbed the victim very hard in the throat. He then stabbed the second victim multiple times.

The headline, "beheading" was chosen by the media because such sensationalism is what sells.

I read up on this and I think it's a bit of both to be honest Clarkey.

The chap that shot him was a trained professional, i.e., a policeman (part time deputy Sheriff).

I will stick with the police statement from investigators rather than sensationalist news outlets.

I know most TV'ers prefer the latter ;-)

And you are correct. The "chap" was a trained professional. In fact, the workplace had a rule that firearms could not be brought on the premises by employees but his senior executive position and law enforcement training allowed him to be an exception.

Law. Enforcement. Training. Those are the words I was looking for.

I can outshoot any cop I've ever run across, and they don't seem to show up at the range for competition. They have to qualify only at their own range and their target isn't the bullseye type. It's a human torso image. They have to be accurate enough to hit the torso most of the time.

This CEO was probably a gun enthusiast which many police officers aren't. Many police officers join the force for the pay and benefits or because they enjoy looking important in a uniform, or because they can retire with good pay either in 20 years or when they turn 50. Many of them have never held a gun before joining the force. Most never have to fire their gun on duty.

Don't give the police too much credit. They put their pants on one leg at a time just like the rest of us.

This is the problem in the UK. They think that only police should have guns. There aren't enough police to protect them and some day they will be begging to get guns. It will happen in my lifetime, as more and more Islamists move in and outbreed the natives 6:1. Probably in not more than 20 years the UK could become a Muslim state.

Edited September 28, 2014 by NeverSure

[ClutchClark]

Police investigators say there was no evidence to suggest the knife killing was the result of Nolen's newfound faith of Islam.

It was an act of workplace violence as a result of his being fired. He was in a rage and stabbed the victim very hard in the throat. He then stabbed the second victim multiple times.

The headline, "beheading" was chosen by the media because such sensationalism is what sells.

I read up on this and I think it's a bit of both to be honest Clarkey.

The chap that shot him was a trained professional, i.e., a policeman (part time deputy Sheriff).

I will stick with the police statement from investigators rather than sensationalist news outlets.

I know most TV'ers prefer the latter ;-)

And you are correct. The "chap" was a trained professional. In fact, the workplace had a rule that firearms could not be brought on the premises by employees but his senior executive position and law enforcement training allowed him to be an exception.

Law. Enforcement. Training. Those are the words I was looking for.

Does this mean I win a prize?

[MJP]

^^ You 'ave wooon a loooovely grenade launcher. Jim Bowen It's a Bullseye!

Edited September 28, 2014 by MJP

[ClutchClark]

Yep, Alton Nolan had several priors, including Assault & Battery on a police officer in 2010.

He was not legally allowed to own a firearm.

BTW, he also had a tattoo of Jesus Christ on his chest.