In the context of Thailand, what is a digital nomad?

[raybal5]

In my case, I already have a retirement visa due to my property and my pensions.

Maybe I'm a workaholic, but I don't feel old enough to sit around at a stone table all day long and wait for my lady to come back home from work.

Do I understand correctly that a Digital Nomad is someone who does not need a working permit or a business visa ?

No your not understanding it correctly, there are very few exceptions to the WP requirements in Thailand, if your working in Thailand, ie physically present in the country and working you need a WP, the question of legality is not up for debate, the only question is will you get caught ? If you keep your mouth shut about what your doing shouldn't be an issue

Then why were all of the people that were arrested at PunSpace released without charge when they were working in a co-working space on Tourist and Education visas. They got caught! They also were released without charge.

I fail to understand why, given this, you declare the issue to be black and white when it clearly and demonstrably IS debatable.

why they were not charged ?....could we suggest the mai pen rai attitude in Thailand, but this doesn't make it legal either, just means the BIB as with a lot of things are not doing their job properly

The question is not up for debate, the law is very specific, and it says one requires a work permit to work in Thailand, there is no debate in that statement, it is black and white

If the law was not up for debate, there would be no need for court cases. The laws of every country are debated every day in millions of court cases. Laws are subject to interpretation based upon, amongst other things, what the intent of the law was when it was passed rather than merely the letter of the law.

If laws were not up for debate, barristers and in many cases, solicitors, would be out of work. Massive unemployment for law graduates.

Take off your blinkers and understand that laws are open to interpretation and debate. And more importantly, that the current laws and interpretations of those laws are not always correct.

Stop being so black & white about the law. Hell, it's not even your law so I don't know why you are trying to beat everyone up with it.

[mrtoad]

The issue is realy that while us a grey area then there is not going to be any guarantees if being able to stay. I believe that some of the laws need to be changed to improve and stimulate business and make it easier for companies to employ foreigners. However with the laws are in place as they are people should at least comply. Grind houses etc are never going to comply

Edited October 27, 2014 by mrtoad

[raybal5]

The issue is realy that while us a grey area then realky there is not going to be any guarantees if being abke to stay. I believe that some of the laws need to be changed to improve and stimulate business and make it easier for companies to employ foreigners. However with the laws are in place as they are people should at least comply. Grind houses etc are never going to comply

Is this some form of new coded language you are using?

[mrtoad]

The issue is realy that while us a grey area then realky there is not going to be any guarantees if being abke to stay. I believe that some of the laws need to be changed to improve and stimulate business and make it easier for companies to employ foreigners. However with the laws are in place as they are people should at least comply. Grind houses etc are never going to comply

Is this some form of new coded language you are using?

Bloody smart phones.

[Soutpeel]

In my case, I already have a retirement visa due to my property and my pensions.

Maybe I'm a workaholic, but I don't feel old enough to sit around at a stone table all day long and wait for my lady to come back home from work.

Do I understand correctly that a Digital Nomad is someone who does not need a working permit or a business visa ?

No your not understanding it correctly, there are very few exceptions to the WP requirements in Thailand, if your working in Thailand, ie physically present in the country and working you need a WP, the question of legality is not up for debate, the only question is will you get caught ? If you keep your mouth shut about what your doing shouldn't be an issue

Then why were all of the people that were arrested at PunSpace released without charge when they were working in a co-working space on Tourist and Education visas. They got caught! They also were released without charge.

I fail to understand why, given this, you declare the issue to be black and white when it clearly and demonstrably IS debatable.

why they were not charged ?....could we suggest the mai pen rai attitude in Thailand, but this doesn't make it legal either, just means the BIB as with a lot of things are not doing their job properly

The question is not up for debate, the law is very specific, and it says one requires a work permit to work in Thailand, there is no debate in that statement, it is black and white

If the law was not up for debate, there would be no need for court cases. The laws of every country are debated every day in millions of court cases. Laws are subject to interpretation based upon, amongst other things, what the intent of the law was when it was passed rather than merely the letter of the law.

If laws were not up for debate, barristers and in many cases, solicitors, would be out of work. Massive unemployment for law graduates.

Take off your blinkers and understand that laws are open to interpretation and debate. And more importantly, that the current laws and interpretations of those laws are not always correct.

Stop being so black & white about the law. Hell, it's not even your law so I don't know why you are trying to beat everyone up with it.

So what is not black and white about the statement that working in Thailand requires a work permit, seems pretty black and white to me ?

I am not beating anybody up as stated on numerous occasions I have no problem DM or working on line, I do it my self, but what I take exception to is people demanding to be treated differently, I know you struggle reading, but what in this remark warrants calling people names and getting all hot under the collar about

[manarak]

So what is not black and white about the statement that working in Thailand requires a work permit, seems pretty black and white to me ?

Exactly - the only problem is that even Thai Law knows exceptions, albeit few, to that rule.

And there is also a difference between the letter of the Law and how it's applied - it's now pretty clear that working online for business that has nothing to do with Thailand is tolerated by the authorities.

BTW, three years back I consulted with my lawyer to discuss legalities with him, and he too said that I would get strictly zero problems for working online as long as I didn't do any local business.

But since I planned to do local business and didn't want to become vulnerable to blackmail by bad people, I chose the WP route.

[Soutpeel]

So what is not black and white about the statement that working in Thailand requires a work permit, seems pretty black and white to me ?

Exactly - the only problem is that even Thai Law knows exceptions, albeit few, to that rule.

And there is also a difference between the letter of the Law and how it's applied - it's now pretty clear that working online for business that has nothing to do with Thailand is tolerated by the authorities.

BTW, three years back I consulted with my lawyer to discuss legalities with him, and he too said that I would get strictly zero problems for working online as long as I didn't do any local business.

But since I planned to do local business and didn't want to become vulnerable to blackmail by bad people, I chose the WP route.

Good for you, you have played the game the way its supposed to be, but answer me this your work is wholly on line ? Yes we have been told by numerous posters that you cannot get a WP for working on line, so on face value it appears it is possible

[rwdrwdrwd]

So what is not black and white about the statement that working in Thailand requires a work permit, seems pretty black and white to me ?

Exactly - the only problem is that even Thai Law knows exceptions, albeit few, to that rule.

And there is also a difference between the letter of the Law and how it's applied - it's now pretty clear that working online for business that has nothing to do with Thailand is tolerated by the authorities.

BTW, three years back I consulted with my lawyer to discuss legalities with him, and he too said that I would get strictly zero problems for working online as long as I didn't do any local business.

But since I planned to do local business and didn't want to become vulnerable to blackmail by bad people, I chose the WP route.

Good for you, you have played the game the way its supposed to be, but answer me this your work is wholly on line ? Yes we have been told by numerous posters that you cannot get a WP for working on line, so on face value it appears it is possible

Let me just fix that for you - 'you have played the game the way I think it's supposed to be'

Jesus, this is like a really turdy version of Groundhog Day.

Edited October 27, 2014 by rwdrwdrwd

[CharlieH]

several off topic squabbling posts removed

[ldnguy]

1. A digital nomad is NOT an internet entrepreneur:a digital nomad (by definition) will seldom set up a company or employ people.

On the contrary, quite often they will have a corporate entity through which to trade, though this is likely to be located in a tax efficient environment such as Hong Kong or BVI. You're right about not employing people though.

5. Earning potential. This is a tricky one. I believe that a nomadic lifestyle places a severe cap on what can be earned. To make serious money from the internet, a registered company or semi-permanent place of residence is needed.

I think you'd be surprised. In many cases these are people that have built up a successful career doing onsite work that have migrated to working remotely. The money is almost on-par with onsite rates, and the tax structure, payment via Dividends and difference in cost of living often pushes this well above in terms of (take home pay - cost of living).

In terms of Software Engineering, something I have 15 years experience in and am very familiar with (I've consulted, sometimes remotely, for a number of Fortune 500s), I can assure you that for a strong senior level programmer that is skilled enough to land a long term remote role with a decent western technical company, or that can fill their time with a selection of decent western clients, 100 - 120k USD+ is not that hard to obtain, and neither is equity - Silicon Valley is now paying 150k - 200k + equity so even undercutting by 20 - 25% means fantastic income and sometime undercutting isn't even a factor - there are a number of large profitable organisations with sizeable tech teams that are distributed across the globe and paid extremely well - same as SV rates. For these organisations the key is skillset and experience, not physical location, and they will pay for it.

A permanent home address isn't really a requirement as much as a reliable internet connection, wherever that may be, though executing contracts and invoicing via an offshore company with a serviced office / accountancy firm registered address certainly makes things easier.

I agree. I know a few digital nomads that earn over $1 a year. They work full-time, employ staff and run real online businesses. But the are nomadic and spend a few months here and few months there. They are very well organized and aren't the type to be down the pub or sitting o the beach or whatever. They work very hard indeed. But they don't want to stay in one location.

I think forex would count, as it's also digital work.

[manarak]

So what is not black and white about the statement that working in Thailand requires a work permit, seems pretty black and white to me ?

Exactly - the only problem is that even Thai Law knows exceptions, albeit few, to that rule.

And there is also a difference between the letter of the Law and how it's applied - it's now pretty clear that working online for business that has nothing to do with Thailand is tolerated by the authorities.

BTW, three years back I consulted with my lawyer to discuss legalities with him, and he too said that I would get strictly zero problems for working online as long as I didn't do any local business.

But since I planned to do local business and didn't want to become vulnerable to blackmail by bad people, I chose the WP route.

Good for you, you have played the game the way its supposed to be, but answer me this your work is wholly on line ? Yes we have been told by numerous posters that you cannot get a WP for working on line, so on face value it appears it is possible

Yes, my work is wholly online.

What other people meant is that Thailand grants no WP to one-man online workers, freelancers, etc.

I was forced to create a Thai limited company for my activity.

[mrtoad]

So what is not black and white about the statement that working in Thailand requires a work permit, seems pretty black and white to me ?

Exactly - the only problem is that even Thai Law knows exceptions, albeit few, to that rule.

And there is also a difference between the letter of the Law and how it's applied - it's now pretty clear that working online for business that has nothing to do with Thailand is tolerated by the authorities.

BTW, three years back I consulted with my lawyer to discuss legalities with him, and he too said that I would get strictly zero problems for working online as long as I didn't do any local business.

But since I planned to do local business and didn't want to become vulnerable to blackmail by bad people, I chose the WP route.

Good for you, you have played the game the way its supposed to be, but answer me this your work is wholly on line ? Yes we have been told by numerous posters that you cannot get a WP for working on line, so on face value it appears it is possible

Yes, my work is wholly online.

What other people meant is that Thailand grants no WP to one-man online workers, freelancers, etc.

I was forced to create a Thai limited company for my activity.

Good for you.

You are not the same as the digicoys/ pikeys.

WPs are available, but some choose not to want to go that route, and falsify ED visa applications.

That is Pikery.

[rwdrwdrwd]

Happened upon this again today, seen it before but is pertinent to the discussion, and shows some direct examples of the types of work 'Digital Nomads' perform - http://open.bufferapp.com/introducing-open-salaries-at-buffer-including-our-transparent-formula-and-all-individual-salaries/ - in this case, technical customer service, HR, editorial, engineering and design roles (and one 'weekend warrior' which I cannot translate)

I was reminded due to a new update by Buffer today, one that states

A lot has happened since then. Over the years, the product has evolved into a full social media publishing and analytics platform with a lot of power. The team has grown to 24 incredibly inspiring people. We ended up traveling the world by accident, working from Hong Kong, Israel, South Africa, creating a culture of working from wherever in the world makes you happiest and most productive.

There are a growing number of successful organisations operating in this distributed manner, loads of startups, some 100% distributed very established companies, and also some public companies with remote contributors operating in the same manner. Buffer just happens to be an easy example due to adopting extreme transparancy - to the point of listing all employees salaries (though for sure many - i'd expect most - of these individuals operate with consultancy agreements and are not technically 'employees').

Money is toward the bottom end of the contracts I've seen, with the lowest paid senior engineer in the location grouping that Thailand would be located on 96k USD, although the revenue multiplier that Buffer use could change this dramatically at short notice, and given the trajectory of the business this is likely to be in an upward direction. The equity could turn out nice as well.

There's more to this type of work than making a pittance from selling fake bags on eBay, the distributed team approach and associated opportunity for 100% remote work, including nomadic, is becoming more and more common. Interesting times.

Edited October 27, 2014 by rwdrwdrwd

[TheSpade]

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The first time in my life I heard about digital Nomads was about a month ago when the thread appeared on TVF.
From what I understood from that thread is that digital nomads are mainly young people that have an idea of how to use a computer and try to convince themselves that they have a job.
The don't offer any benefits to anybody, no taxes paid no social security just instead of trying to find a proper job they are pissing around the globe pretending they offer something to society.
From what I understood also they are earning a pittance of money.
I would call them lazy bums and I would advise them to go and get a job.

As a digital nomad that makes online games, Once a game is made it runs online with virtually no more time needed on it maybe 1-2 weeks a year to add some new content to the game. It is easy to make 6 figures or more a year from this type of work and travel the globe, Maybe many of us limit our taxes but we provide much more then the average worker. Not only do we spend the same amount if not more then most people that work in the country we stay in but every worker gets a lot of benefits from the country it is working in, medical etc where as digital nomads pay it all themselves. Where as the country a worker resides in has to cover them with certain benefits at a cost to that country, in the case of a digital nomad the country gets a good amount of money spent by the nomad with NO cost/risk to the country at all!!

And this is all well and good, but please don't start bleating on you want the thai government to give you special privileges or visa's

I don't see anyone saying that. It's just people like you who keep claiming it.

Most DMs just can't see why you and others get so upset about it when it has nothing to do with you, no affect on your life, the locals don't care and immigration don't care.

No one is demanding special visas.

But let's look at a special visa that does exist.

The retirement visa. Issued to anyone aged 55+ with enough money in the bank.

Given only based on age and a bank balance. These people did nothing to earn that visa other than the fact they were born at a certain time. Pure luck.

So why would it be so crazy for there to be a visa for under 55s who could also show the same amount of money?

Makes perfect sense.

[SiggiCM]

I'm the one whois I trying to push the idea of the "Self Employed Online Worker" visa in Thailand.

So far with very little success.

All you so-called "digital nomads" should be pushing for this visa, but frankly, a lot of you are just using your "work" in Thailand as just an excuse to booze it up and avoid paying taxes anywhere (including your home country).

In order for there ever to be a real "Digital Workers On-line Visa" in Thailand, you need to make such a thing profitable for the Thai government.

That means you have got to cut them in on a share of the tax revenue from the legitimate income you earn on-line.

Yes, I know you don't like that idea.

But if you ever get such a visa is to come about you need it to be desirable for the Thai government to enact it.

That, my friend, is called a "Quid Pro Quo" ..... or more commonly ...... everybody gets their due share, you wash my hands and I wash yours.

It would also be beneficial to you who work here in Thailand to be legal, and also the income tax rates are usually lower in Thailand than in other developed countries around the work.

My proposal therefore is that such a visa would require taxes to be paid on the PORTION of your on-line income that you bring into Thailand for living expenses here in Thailand.

You would declare that, and pay Thai taxes on that as you would income earned in Thailand.

For that , you would get the right to a Digital Worker On-line Worker visa that would allow you to live in Thailand and could be renewed annually.

Of course that annual renewal would require annual tax filing in Thailand.

Think about it.

what a stupid comment, no country give every a visa or work permit to people to work outside their country or offer service, thai goverment can only provide work permits to work in thailand, but this would give the people the right to work for thai customers and offers service on thai market.

why all the peopek on retirement Visa dont pay tax? because thailand not have the right to charge, if they would charge any tax, all the peopek would have the right to work in thailand and get social insurance and helth insurance.

if you offer service for customers in other countrys you are not working in thailand and you doing nothing illegal

[manarak]

Yes, my work is wholly online.

What other people meant is that Thailand grants no WP to one-man online workers, freelancers, etc.

I was forced to create a Thai limited company for my activity.

Good for you.

You are not the same as the digicoys/ pikeys.

WPs are available, but some choose not to want to go that route, and falsify ED visa applications.

That is Pikery.

Well, some would accuse me of using a nominee for the company as well as of having fake employees to support my WP, since so far I was unable to find qualified Thai staff.

[rwdrwdrwd]

Good for you.

You are not the same as the digicoys/ pikeys.

WPs are available, but some choose not to want to go that route, and falsify ED visa applications.

That is Pikery.

Well, some would accuse me of using a nominee for the company as well as of having fake employees to support my WP, since so far I was unable to find qualified Thai staff.

Check out what happens when you try to run an online business efficiently, with a distributed team, including Thai nationals via a Thai registered business:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/764316-requirement-for-employees-working-from-home/

Not very forward thinking to say the least....

[manarak]

Good for you.

You are not the same as the digicoys/ pikeys.

WPs are available, but some choose not to want to go that route, and falsify ED visa applications.

That is Pikery.

Well, some would accuse me of using a nominee for the company as well as of having fake employees to support my WP, since so far I was unable to find qualified Thai staff.

Check out what happens when you try to run an online business efficiently, with a distributed team, including Thai nationals via a Thai registered business:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/764316-requirement-for-employees-working-from-home/

Not very forward thinking to say the least....

That post is based on what "a guy from social security" said - I wouldn't give too much credit to what one guy said.

I think the correct procedure is to hire a lawyer for that, go see the guy locally responsible for the inspections and have him agree to how the work is organized. Shouldn't be much of a problem.

[Soutpeel]

why all the peopek on retirement Visa dont pay tax? because thailand not have the right to charge, if they would charge any tax, all the peopek would have the right to work in thailand and get social insurance and helth insurance.

if you offer service for customers in other countrys you are not working in thailand and you doing nothing illegal

Er your really are clueless arent you ?.....they dont pay tax in Thailand in most cases simply because their pensions from Farangistan are being taxed at source, ie in their own country, therefore under reciprocal tax agreements between Thailand and say the UK/US or Aussie, a person will not be taxed twice on the same income, so sorry to dispell your conspiracy theory, even paying tax in Thailand would not entitle you to social insurance and health insurance so stop talking tosh.

Further once a person is resident in Thailand for more than 180 days, they can be classed as resident for tax purposes, therefore Thailand would be well within their rights to ask a someone on a pension to prove that tax has been paid on that pension money, not that they do this currently, and in most cases all the person has to do is prove the tax has been paid, and they wouldnt be liable for any further tax in Thailand under a reciprocal tax agreement.

As to you last point, as has been stated on numberous threads time and time again, in terms of the current definition of work, if your gettting paid, where your getting or where your clients are has absolutely no bearing on whether a person is deemed to be working in Thailand, the fact that the person is in Thailand conducting said work which could be interpreted as working in Thailand, simply because thats where the person is physically, now under a broad interpretation of the current rules, if you are sitting in Thailand doing your work for overseas customers, yes this could be interpreted as working in Thailand.

My challange to the digital pikey's (who are adamant that its all above board) is thus, if you are working in Thailand, go and walk into in your local immigration/ DOL, tell them what your up to and ask for written confirmation that no WP is required for their activities, scan the letter and publish it on TV with all the relevant PP/names blanked out, and BTW, please dont be smart arse and photoshop something

This will close this argument once and for all, with reference to a specific immigration/DOL office from which a letter is issued..

Awaiting all the excuses and comments like "are you stupid" "are you insane" which will result from my "Pikery Challange"...but the point is, if someone is so confident in their position and interpretation of their legal status, they should have not problem walking into immigration or the DOL, JSPILL professes to be fluent in Thai, so shoud have no problems discussing this with an offical from immigration or the DOL..

[jspill]

JSPILL professes to be fluent in Thai, so shoud have no problems discussing this with an offical from immigration or the DOL..

I said I'm above the level of Thai taught in Ed visa classes. If you want to twist that to claiming fluency because you're insecure about your own Thai (and English) proficiency, then fine.

[jspill]

As to you last point, as has been stated on numberous threads time and time again, in terms of the current definition of work, if your gettting paid, where your getting or where your clients are has absolutely no bearing on whether a person is deemed to be working in Thailand, the fact that the person is in Thailand conducting said work which could be interpreted as working in Thailand, simply because thats where the person is physically, now under a broad interpretation of the current rules, if you are sitting in Thailand doing your work for overseas customers, yes this could be interpreted as working in Thailand.

Stating things on internet messageboards doesn't make them correct. Neither does stating them time and time again 'on numberous threads'. You and mrtoad have tens of thousands of low-content posts combined.

There being numerous threads is a result of it being a grey area. I'm happy to see you write 'could be interpreted'. That implies it also could not be.

[Soutpeel]

As to you last point, as has been stated on numberous threads time and time again, in terms of the current definition of work, if your gettting paid, where your getting or where your clients are has absolutely no bearing on whether a person is deemed to be working in Thailand, the fact that the person is in Thailand conducting said work which could be interpreted as working in Thailand, simply because thats where the person is physically, now under a broad interpretation of the current rules, if you are sitting in Thailand doing your work for overseas customers, yes this could be interpreted as working in Thailand.

Stating things on internet messageboards doesn't make them correct. Neither does stating them time and time again 'on numberous threads'. You and mrtoad have tens of thousands of low-content posts combined.

There being numerous threads is a result of it being a grey area. I'm happy to see you write 'could be interpreted'. That implies it also could not be.

Well off you go to your local immigration/DOL office and get conclusive proof for us them...

[rwdrwdrwd]

Even if someone did that it would only be relevant to their specific location, and even then would only stand as something that could be usable (and very useful) in court as defence, it would not in itself act as 'conclusive proof'.

Have to hold on for someone to be taken to court I'm afraid to get your proof. Until then, given the lack of charges or prosecution of those clearly working online from Thailand for foreign clients and being renumerated offshore, grey area

Edited October 29, 2014 by rwdrwdrwd

[Soutpeel]

JSPILL professes to be fluent in Thai, so shoud have no problems discussing this with an offical from immigration or the DOL..

I said I'm above the level of Thai taught in Ed visa classes. If you want to twist that to claiming fluency because you're insecure about your own Thai (and English) proficiency, then fine.

How would you know you level if Thai is higher than that taught in Ed visa clsses ? Apparantly you dont attend classes on your current Ed visa...

I am not insecure about my level of Thai, my level of Thai by my own admission is cr*p, I am just no good with foreign languages thats all, always have been

[Soutpeel]

Even if someone did that it would only be relevant to their specific location, and even then would only stand as something that could be usable (and very useful) in court as defence, it would not in itself act as 'conclusive proof'.

Have to hold on for someone to be taken to court I'm afraid to get your proof. Until then, given the lack of charges or prosecution of those clearly working online from Thailand for foregin clients and being renumerate offshore, grey area

Why would you need to defend something in a court of law, using a letter ? if as some of pikeys assert its not illegal in the first instance ?

In the case of a specific DOL specific issuing a letter for an area under their authority, if the person is working under that jurisdiction, they are "legal" seeing as its the DOL who decides who does and doesnt need a WP as its this department which issues the WP in the first place, therefore it is in their remit to also state a person under a specific set of circumstances not needing one as well... therefore there can be no court case or defense needed ...

[jspill]

How would you know you level if Thai is higher than that taught in Ed visa clsses ? Apparantly you dont attend classes on your current Ed visa...

The curriculum is public.

Well off you go to your local immigration/DOL office and get conclusive proof for us them...

It's innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around.

Edited October 29, 2014 by jspill

[RolandRat]

Problem here, as with many issues in Thailand is "where" aswell. It doesnt matter what someone "thinks" or believes to be true legal and correct, what matters is that Office and that Officer for that area, as there are no consistencies in many areas of both employment and immigration activities. Its all about what happens on the day at that moment in time, in that place. Everything else is pretty much guesswork, IMHO.

Edited October 29, 2014 by RolandRat

[Gayllips]

Excuse me for asking but why are the OP’s writing/posting style and every view so similar with his newly found friend jspill.

I know that this cannot be the same poster, as that would be against the forum rules.

Saying that, there are posters on this thread who delight at being able to boast that they regularly bend the rules and have absolutely no guilt in doing so.

Maybe some on this board would call them Digital Pikey’s but personally I would call them low life pond scum.

[rwdrwdrwd]

Why would you need to defend something in a court of law, using a letter ? if as some of pikeys assert its not illegal in the first instance ?

You probably wouldn't since you would be very unlikely to be charged, however if a single person is issued with such a letter by any region, the following can occur, the outcome of which would be set a precedent

1 - Individual 1 is issued with a magic letter in Region 1.

2 - Individual 2 is arrested in Region 2 and charged with being in breach of Immigration and DOL regulations for working online for a foreign client and being paid offshore (not happened yet, despite such people coming to the attention of Immigration).

3 - Individual 2 opts to present evidence to court, they get a lawyer and possibly remain in detention until the hearing. Both deportations and sentancing require court orders so there is an opportunity.

4 - Individual 2 and lawyer present case in court, presenting magic letter issued to Individual 1 as supporting evidence for their position.

5 - We, and nationwide agencies that are actually tasked with caring about it, get a precedent by virtue of a court decision.

Only then will we move beyond irrelevant opinion and interpretation from individuals such as myself and yourself. Until then, given the lack of any form of punishment or warning even when people have been arrested and questioned, it's a grey area.

Edited October 29, 2014 by rwdrwdrwd

[mrtoad]

How would you know you level if Thai is higher than that taught in Ed visa clsses ? Apparantly you dont attend classes on your current Ed visa...

The curriculum is public.

Well off you go to your local immigration/DOL office and get conclusive proof for us them...

It's innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around.

I think in Thailand it appears that it is slight difference in that it is the other way around