Parent Dialogue #1

[thaibebop]

I thought it would be neat to start a few threads dealing with issues that every parent has/had to face. I wanted to see if what my wife and I planned on doing was different and by how much. I wanted to see if listening to other parents I would get new ideas on these issues. I hope to keep these dialogues educational and fun forms of conversation, in which ideas on the important job of parenting can be discussed and expanded upon.

The first issue I would like to talk about is violence, or any conflict for that matter.

We all want to tell our children that violence is wrong and not the answer to solve our problems. I was told this. Yet, I was always told that if someone wanted to beat me up I should run or even fight back.

How do we explain these wars to our children? The violence in Thailand, war in Irag and the rest of the Middle East. Our world is too connected for our children not to learn about these things. So, how do we make sense of it for them?

What about the violence of words? What if our child is being picked on or singled out in some way? I just read a article about a family who has a different religion than the community they lived in. This eleven year old boy was being insulted by kids and adults alike because of this difference. What deos a parent say about that?

Well, I will stop here and see what others have to say.

Thanks for reading, Thaibebop

[Thaiboxer]

According to some culture books on Thailand, kids were encouraged not to fight with bullies and even punished for defending themselves. For us Westerners, we're often taught to stand our ground if somebody is trying to pick on us. From what I've seen in the schools I've taught at, there isn't much bullying like there is in the West but Thai kids will defend themselves like most Western kids would if another one starts with them.

With regard to the violence in the world today (wars, riots, etc), you would really need to think that one over before explaining it to them since they have such easy access to the media via the internet and TV. There is a lot of biased info out there and it is very important to teach your kids to think for themselves along with giving them a good upbringing. On top of this, one of the most important skills a kid will learn is how to do their own research when they want to find out about something. If taught to think for themselves, they will have less trouble choosing where to look for information.

Edited July 30, 2006 by Thaiboxer

[Nawtilus]

Thinking for themselves is the most important thing.

Providing a guiding hand to hopefully make sure they look and choose in the right areas is what we do.

As for wars, my kids to young to understand any of this just yet and when it comes to it, I think simple answers until they are able to think about it more for themselves work. As much as I would love to stay 'stooopid muslims' I would not as all are not and I would just say their are good and bad people in the world.

As for bullying and fighting at school. I have started my 4yo son in Tae Kwon Doe classes and by the time he starts grade 1 at 6yo he will be able to take care of himself. Not only this, but the discipline and skills will help him as he grows up.

[thaibebop]

Both of you bring up a really good point, thinking for themselves. Which I think is part of the key. As for school hallway violence I have always thought to teach my children how to pick their battles. Sometimes it calls for running, like when you know you can't win, sometimes fighting is the best. So, being able to determine when and how they handle the violence is what a parent should be thinking about. Do you agreee?

What is the best to do this? I think all kids should have a little martial arts training, at least to build confidence and a little self-defence know how, both girls and boys. What do you guys think?

I think we also can agree that when it comes to bigger conflicts that our children are faced with sitting down and walking them through the events that lead to the fighting and allowing them to think their own thoughts about it would be best. Do you agree?

What about the violence of crime? Should it be treated the same way as war? Should we help them walk through why one might steal? I dread my daughther finding out about rape and serial killers. I have no idea how to explain those crimes.

Now what about the verbal abuse? Not as bad as physical violence yet we all know that those scars stay just as long if not longer and deeper. Should your child lash back out? Defend themselves verbally as they might do phyically? My wife seems to think so. I am not sure myself. I think that my daughter walking away from it would be best, yet I do agree with my wife that you shouldn't let people walk all over you and even though I am smart enough not to mistake silence for weakness most kids don't. So, more thoughts on this.

[Jasmine]

I'm in ahurry so can't reply as fully as I'd like to t-b-b but I'm really interested in your post cos I have similar concerns.

We've just started our daughter (7) in a kung <deleted> class, for the reasons you describe, to help build her confidence and give her the skills to defend herself if ever she needed to. My mum always taught me to walk away but sometimes I wish I'd been a bit tougher

When it comes to verbal abuse I'm not sure either, maybe if somebody verbally wounds you it is ok to wound them back (with words) afterall do they deserve it?

Or do you teach them to be the bigger person and that usually people say bad things because of their own feelings of self-loathing/inadequacy and that they shouldn't lash back... I dont know...

[Nawtilus]

I believe in standing up for yourself every time, never let yourself be walked over or taken advantage of.

So this means returning fire when someone may verbally abuse you. The difference is that rather than returning abuse, I would try to teach my kids to return with laughter or some equally smart remark that puts the person in their place smartly rather than just return abuse.

Obviously not everyone can do this.

I was faced with 3 ladyboys recently with one wielding an 8 inch blade. I stood up to her and told her to take her best shot, nothing happened in the end after a 5 minute or so stand off....also I did not want to be seen running away from girls chasing me with a knife and handbags.

Another example was on the subway escalators recently with a farang who had seemed to have a few mental problems. He abused me and called me a cun.t as loud as he could and expressed his dire concerns for bird flu etc. Anyway I was amused and told him brid flu would be a blessing if he caught it first. Then he really let fly and told me how he was smarter than me, that he was a musician and a scientist...I told him he had been blowing his bag pipes to hard.... this got his goat up somewhat and certainly made me smile at his reflected rage, but this has the opposite effect of calming a situation dwon as they loose their grip on the situation.

Anyway, as I mentioned my son at 4yo has started TKD and he loves it, my little girl now 1yo will also start when she is 4yo. Both boys and girls doing martial arts are great for their development and confidence and for different reasons for each sex.

[PeaceBlondie]

I was raised in the USA in a community that didn't settle its disagreements with fights. Ever. Four years in the USAF, no violent fights.

Adult leaders don't physically use violence, except militarily and police-ly. Real leaders speak, debate, think, learn, teach, compromise, and don't punch the other Thai school administrator in the face in front of the students.

I raised six kids to be absolutely non-violent always, everywhere, with everyone, regardless. They knew that if they fought back, violently, I would punish them non-violently just for letting the disagreement get to that point. It worked. They're not all successful, but they're decent citizens.

Hitting human beings is what thugs do. In my pacifist opinion. Parents, teach your children well, before they teach you lessons you do not want to learn.

[thaibebop]

I was raised in the USA in a community that didn't settle its disagreements with fights. Ever. Four years in the USAF, no violent fights.

Adult leaders don't physically use violence, except militarily and police-ly. Real leaders speak, debate, think, learn, teach, compromise, and don't punch the other Thai school administrator in the face in front of the students.

I raised six kids to be absolutely non-violent always, everywhere, with everyone, regardless. They knew that if they fought back, violently, I would punish them non-violently just for letting the disagreement get to that point. It worked. They're not all successful, but they're decent citizens.

Hitting human beings is what thugs do. In my pacifist opinion. Parents, teach your children well, before they teach you lessons you do not want to learn.

I think you have had the right idea. However, sometimes we just can't avoid it. I know there were times people were determined to beat me and no words or even walking or running away was going to change that. What then? Would you still punish them if they had no choice? I couldn't do that. I will punish my children my children for starting a fight and I might get upset with them if they were not able to avoid it, but not punish.

[Thaiboxer]

I agree with that...you have to punish your kids for being bullies. Everyone has had bullies in their childhood and knows how it feels to be picked on so you certainly don't want your kids to pick on others. However, there may come a time when it is not possible to avoid a physical confrontation and your kids need to know what to do in that situation. Martial arts training is good for that and also for building self-confidence/discipline.

Tae Kwondo is very popular among middle and upper class kids, but it's taught mainly as a sport and would probably get you beaten or killed in a real fight. Thai Boxing is much more practical for real fighting although it also has its limitations. Today, many kids have not had exposure to Thai Boxing, especially in the cities, so your kids may be less likely to run into a tough bully.

[PeaceBlondie]

Not sure what we mean by "punish." If a child has learned to become a bully while living in your home, well....all behavior is learned because it is taught. By "punish" nonviolently, I mean restrictions, groundings, extra housework, etc.

Being a bully to your own kid only reinforces bullying. I think. The idea is supposed to be that beating your kid teaches him not to beat other people. Hmm, not good lesson.

[Thaiboxer]

I agree...nonviolent punishment is great and violent punishment can make a child more aggressive. However, I think every kid needs a spanking here and there. If our parents didn't give us the wooden spoon we would be have turned out to be misfits.

[thaibebop]

Yes, punish non-violently, of course. However, while I am excited by the direction this is taking, I have to back up.

PB, you said that you would punish the child if they "allowed" the conflict to get to the point of violence. So, my question was how would you know it was their fault? If someone wants to beat up someone else words are hardly going to stop them, just look at the Middle East. Let's say there was nothing they could do, and you where so sure of that so you punish anyway ot make the point of always being non-violent. If the child knows there was nothing they could and are yet being punished, would this tactic back-fire?

Now, you guys bring up a great topic, bullies. I have been asking questions that deal with our children being attacked, but what if our child is the attacker? PB, if one of yours, who you have taught non-violent means to, and never used violence against them turns out to be the violent one, what would you do? What if they didn't respond to words and loss of freedoms?

Thaiboxer, same question to you. If one of yours used their martial arts to dominate either than defend, how could this be handled? Would violence work against one with training? What if they were unresponsive to non-violent means?

[PeaceBlondie]

I don't know what will work for you. I'm not saying this applies to a child under two years old. Not sure where to draw the line, but it's way below ten years of age. Oh, and even then, I had a rule for the little ones: a single strike is discipline and training. Additional strikes are not discipline, they're just beating the kid, and often it's the parent that is out of control.

I've said too much already, so I'll try to finish here. I'm firmly convinced that we live in a violent culture that worships violence against our fellow humans. It's so much against my religion to teach violence to anybody, anywhere, that I completely gave up using corporal punishment around 1981. It worked for me, because I taught them a lifestyle that works for them, and my kids knew that I loved them.

[bggg]

According to some culture books on Thailand, kids were encouraged not to fight with bullies and even punished for defending themselves. For us Westerners, we're often taught to stand our ground if somebody is trying to pick on us. From what I've seen in the schools I've taught at, there isn't much bullying like there is in the West but Thai kids will defend themselves like most Western kids would if another one starts with them.

With regard to the violence in the world today (wars, riots, etc), you would really need to think that one over before explaining it to them since they have such easy access to the media via the internet and TV. There is a lot of biased info out there and it is very important to teach your kids to think for themselves along with giving them a good upbringing. On top of this, one of the most important skills a kid will learn is how to do their own research when they want to find out about something. If taught to think for themselves, they will have less trouble choosing where to look for information.

My experience here has been different then yours Thaiboxer, I see a lot of bullying from Thai students. I am not a teacher but have children in international school. I see a lot of emotional and verbal abuse being dished out by predominately affluent Thai students.

I have always tried to teach my children to stand their ground with their intellect and as someone above posted, not return abuse but return with honest wit and intelligence. It has been my experience that that will work in a great number of situations. If it doesn't and the other resorts to blows....defend yourself and fight if that is what the situation calls for. I also explain some of the why bullys act the way they do, the insecurites, lack of confidence etc. I believe that helps the children know how to handle the sitaution better.

[thaibebop]

I don't know what will work for you. I'm not saying this applies to a child under two years old. Not sure where to draw the line, but it's way below ten years of age. Oh, and even then, I had a rule for the little ones: a single strike is discipline and training. Additional strikes are not discipline, they're just beating the kid, and often it's the parent that is out of control.

I've said too much already, so I'll try to finish here. I'm firmly convinced that we live in a violent culture that worships violence against our fellow humans. It's so much against my religion to teach violence to anybody, anywhere, that I completely gave up using corporal punishment around 1981. It worked for me, because I taught them a lifestyle that works for them, and my kids knew that I loved them.

It's just a discussion we are looking for the "right" way, no worries, yeah?

So, what happens if one of yours becomes the bully?

What if they are being bullied? What would you tell them? Would you try and handle it yourself or do you think they should?

[Thaiboxer]

If my child became a bully, I would punish them. I wouldn't do things to make them more aggressive, rather I would make them understand why bullies do what they do and what can happen (if somebody fights back, for example). I would make them apologize to those they had bullied. What goes around, comes around; bullies are often insecure and may well suffer later on in life from guilt and/or somebody bullying them.

As to my child being bullied, I would teach them to stand their ground using whatever method the situation requires. For example, verbal abuse can often be defused with a witty reply from the child rather than a physical confrontation. If the bullying places my child in a situation in which they have to fight, then they should know how to take care of themselves. A Thai martial arts master once said something along the lines of "We learn to fight so we can avoid fighting." One good thing about martial arts is that it teaches children discipline and gives them confidence..it's not just about the physical skills to defend themselves in a fight but also about how to keep a cool head and walk away from potential fights. I know many people skilled in various martial arts and they are some of the most cool headed people I've ever met....they know what they could do to somebody in a fight and hence they try to avoid fighting as much as possible.

[thaibebop]

So, it would seem that most involved in this discussion might think that a child being violent or non-violent is parent taught. If you Thaiboxer teach your kids to be non-violent than they won't use violence to get what they want.

I am interested in this as I come from a background that has a lot of violence. My father believed that physical punishments were more effective. I wen to schools in which I was one of few of my kind and this put me on endangered species list, not the kind that was protected. I fought ever other day, never won either. I had to fight, even if it was me against five I had to fight. It was the only way I could walk down the hallways with any freedom. The bullies knew that they could defeat me, so fear didn't give me that freedom, the bullies knew that I would fight back, so I was too much work, unless they outnumbered me.

So, seeing so much violence and reasons for violence I would have a hard time telling my children, never. There will be times when it seems that violence is the only answer. I have a daughter and I have seen the behavior men can have towards women. I can only think to tell my daughter tell him no once, if he doesn't listen, break him. Don't let the sitution get out of your hands I would say to her.

I love the PB is trying so hard and I wish him the best of luck, however, I can't help but think humans are animals and sometimes violence is all animals understand. So, I choose to teach my children that there is a time and place and you must be wise to understand when and how to act peacefully and violently.

What do you guys think?

[Thaiboxer]

I love the PB is trying so hard and I wish him the best of luck, however, I can't help but think humans are animals and sometimes violence is all animals understand. So, I choose to teach my children that there is a time and place and you must be wise to understand when and how to act peacefully and violently.

What do you guys think?

Agreed. Just out of curiosity, where did you grow up thaibebop? Sounds like the States to me as many kids over there go through what you went through. As far as the bullies not wanting an competition, I totally agree as I once fought a bully who beat me but from that day on he never picked on me again.

[thaibebop]

I love the PB is trying so hard and I wish him the best of luck, however, I can't help but think humans are animals and sometimes violence is all animals understand. So, I choose to teach my children that there is a time and place and you must be wise to understand when and how to act peacefully and violently.

What do you guys think?

Agreed. Just out of curiosity, where did you grow up thaibebop? Sounds like the States to me as many kids over there go through what you went through. As far as the bullies not wanting an competition, I totally agree as I once fought a bully who beat me but from that day on he never picked on me again.

I grew up in Kansas City Missouri. For the longest time I was one of a handful of white kids in mostly black schools. I had to fight physically and verbally.

[Thaiboxer]

I see...sounds like a tough environment. I met a teacher once who taught in a mostly black school in PA; he got punched in the face once while trying to separate two kids who were fighting. He knows the guy who hit him did it on purpose. This school had metal detectors as well. If it was that bad for him I can only imagine what it was like for students.

[thaibebop]

I see...sounds like a tough environment. I met a teacher once who taught in a mostly black school in PA; he got punched in the face once while trying to separate two kids who were fighting. He knows the guy who hit him did it on purpose. This school had metal detectors as well. If it was that bad for him I can only imagine what it was like for students.

Alot of macho crap. Fight or be a victim all the time.

[soic]

I was raised in a tough neighborhood in America and was physically abused by my natural father. I was able to defend myself without becoming a bully myself. I taught my former step-son how to defend himself. It's important for a child to be able to do that, we shouldn't set them up to be victims, or "protect" them from the knowledge of self preservation. I taught Jamie how to defend himself and the difference between defense and being a bully. I told him that I'd punish him for being a bully if I ever heard of him using what I taught him for anything other than self defense or for defending someone else. He only had to fight once. I'm still proud of the man he's become. I wasn't so fortunate, I had to defend myself too many times in my childhood. I wasn't taught by my parents, at least not conventionally, I had to learn the hard way. After initially getting my butt handed to me, I had to figure out how to stop that from happening. I took the knowledge that my father taught me from the other end of his fist and applied it to my situation. I've learned a great deal in other ways, but I don't generally apply that to my personal life. I eventually started sticking up for the other smaller kids and anyone else that I saw getting picked on. I still find myself doing that same thing to this day. If I see a woman being abused, I usually tap the husband on the shoulder and tell him to hit a man and quit being a "pu$$y". And yes, it caused me to get a few butt whippings too, but I felt better for doing the right thing. I grew up seeing my mother abused, and I'll never stand by and allow another woman or child to be abused.

Non-violence and passivity is admirable, but we truly need to give our kids the knowledge of both trains of thought. However, if we don't teach them how to defend themselves, they'll never know how to defend their families, nations or themselves. I don't want to raise a victim. I'd rather arm them with the knowledge and skills and hope that they never have to use them. I couldn't live with myself if they didn't know how to take care of themselves. Daddy can't be there everytime...

[thaibebop]

I was raised in a tough neighborhood in America and was physically abused by my natural father. I was able to defend myself without becoming a bully myself. I taught my former step-son how to defend himself. It's important for a child to be able to do that, we shouldn't set them up to be victims, or "protect" them from the knowledge of self preservation. I taught Jamie how to defend himself and the difference between defense and being a bully. I told him that I'd punish him for being a bully if I ever heard of him using what I taught him for anything other than self defense or for defending someone else. He only had to fight once. I'm still proud of the man he's become. I wasn't so fortunate, I had to defend myself too many times in my childhood. I wasn't taught by my parents, at least not conventionally, I had to learn the hard way. After initially getting my butt handed to me, I had to figure out how to stop that from happening. I took the knowledge that my father taught me from the other end of his fist and applied it to my situation. I've learned a great deal in other ways, but I don't generally apply that to my personal life. I eventually started sticking up for the other smaller kids and anyone else that I saw getting picked on. I still find myself doing that same thing to this day. If I see a woman being abused, I usually tap the husband on the shoulder and tell him to hit a man and quit being a "pu$$y". And yes, it caused me to get a few butt whippings too, but I felt better for doing the right thing. I grew up seeing my mother abused, and I'll never stand by and allow another woman or child to be abused.

Non-violence and passivity is admirable, but we truly need to give our kids the knowledge of both trains of thought. However, if we don't teach them how to defend themselves, they'll never know how to defend their families, nations or themselves. I don't want to raise a victim. I'd rather arm them with the knowledge and skills and hope that they never have to use them. I couldn't live with myself if they didn't know how to take care of themselves. Daddy can't be there everytime...

Very powerful words there Soic. I have to agree with you though. I would rather my children know how to fight for self-defense and never use it than have someone hurt them because they can't. As much as I want to believe in the goodness of human beings I have little proof to go on. I have seen the weak and women and children to often at the mercy of the merciless.

I have looked to animals on how to rise children. Strange I know, but I have poor examples to follow. What I have found has given me an insite I don't think I would have had otherwise. The parents in the animal kingdom ( I am speaking of mammal here for the most part) give their children what they need to survive. They do not hide their kids or keep them away from things that they could learn from. Too often I have seen parents not want to talk about somthing with their children that their children are some day really going to need advice on. These poeple want to shelter too much.

I am still thinking about where lines are drawn for certain topics should be handled at certain times, but I believe that dealing with issues when they come up and being a source of knowledge for your children, giving them tools to survive first and foremost, than deal with the ideals is the better actions a parent can take.

What think you?

[soic]

I agree with you fully Thaibebop. To me it's as simple as training them to be "able" to defend themselves or raising them to become victims. To me there could be no greater injustice to our children than to raise them as complete passivists and god forbid, put them in a situation where they would have to watch a loved one hurt because they can't do anything to stop it, or be able to at least try. I wouldn't want to raise Bully bait, I realize that the Bully's need a victim, but I won't offer them my children.

[thaibebop]

I agree with you fully Thaibebop. To me it's as simple as training them to be "able" to defend themselves or raising them to become victims. To me there could be no greater injustice to our children than to raise them as complete passivists and god forbid, put them in a situation where they would have to watch a loved one hurt because they can't do anything to stop it, or be able to at least try. I wouldn't want to raise Bully bait, I realize that the Bully's need a victim, but I won't offer them my children.

I like the way you word things.

[Thaiboxer]

"I like the way you word things."

I second that:)

[soic]

Aww Shucks Fellas!!!!

[Nawtilus]

The best option I believe is to teach them the ability to take care of themselves, but teach them to never use it unless they have to. Teach them to never initiate it.

Better to know and to never need it than to never know and need it.

[thaibebop]

So, have we covered everything? Can you guys think of anything aspect we should discuss?

If not, what other issues would you like to dicuss?

[soic]

I got the shock of my life when I was home last time. I had bought a new weed eater, snatched up my 14 yr old Thai son, his 21 yr old cousin and went down to the mother-in-laws to cut her grass and clean the area up a bit. My idea totally... no subtle hints from the wife. Anyway, I told the boys that I'd give them 250 bht each to help me out. I ran the weed eater a while and then started raking the grass and the other two would take their turn. I kept having to track down the 14 yr old. I had to push and push and push to keep him working. Finally at some point when I wasn't looking, the little bugger sneaked off.

Later at home, I paid the 21 year old cousin 400 bht and gave the 14 yr. old 100 bht. I sat him down and via his Mom told him how disappointed I was and that I only paid for the work he performed. I also let him know that the next time I said there were chores to do, he was going to do them if I had to walk behind him and kick him in the butt to keep working. I told him it would have been one thing if I were sitting in the shade and watching, but I was working with them and just as hard as I expected them to. Anyway... he didn't talk to me or come near me for a few days, then the evening I was leaving to come back to Iraq. We were standing out in the street getting ready to load the van to go. He came racing up on a motorbike with his friends and ran over and gave me the biggest hug. I couldn't believe it... I mean we were always close, and always talked in our limited ability, but a hug if front of his friends... never. We always shook hands before.

We've always talked, we sit down as a family at least once a week and talk about the things we want to do and what our plans are. When the wife and I go to town, we always ask the boys if they want to go. I've always made sure that they know that they are my sons, not just hers. I've always made it a point to keep every promise I make, both good ones as in rewards, and the bad ones if they're bad, but I keep them 100%. They're good kids and I'll tell you what, I truly do believe that I'm the luckiest man in all of Thailand.