An Ex Student's Cry For Help, Or The Dark Side Of The Moon.....

[lostinisaan]

Hello and Sawasdee khrap,

One of my ex grade six students, who studies in the EP at a well-known school now, had just sent me this e-mail:

I can't understand the lessons very well. In EP has 1 teacher who is Filipino, He speaks wrong accent like nucleus right? He speak like nucloose. I don't think that I can study very well. Because, some lesson he teach are like for senior high school. I think that normal class haven't studied yet. And my Math isn't Ok. I got 0 in Math in term 1 and my grade was very low. The class has 30 people and my rank was 29. My mom had listened to someone said that teacher in EP might not be real teachers. You can teach students to understand, Ok you can come to teach here and sometime change teachers. And my mom said that study English outside is better. My mom don't want me to worry about study in EP without understand very well.

Should I move out??
But, I want to graduate with my friends in EP too. TT_TT

All I want is other peoples' advice what to tell her. No bs, no nationality bashing posts. Just an idea what I should tell her.

I had been her English teacher at a primary school without an EP for three years and she was always very smart.

Thanks for any useful ideas, as I do have many other things in my mind. Your opinion as a teacher is wanted. Thanks a lot in advance.

[lostinisaan]

P.S. She's in M 2 now and seems to be very confused.

[masuk]

I have worked with teachers in Asia from many countries. Few of us have perfect accents, and to be honest, the worst I ever heard was a nice guy from the UK, with such a strong regional accent I had trouble following him.

Filipinos in my experience have been quite good, apart from the odd weakness in spelling, and whereas we Aussies tend to be lazy with our "r"s so that mother become mutha and brutha and so on. The Filipinos tend to over-emphasise the "R" sound, much more than an American speaker.

I could imagine the your student's problem is "Nuclear' being pronounced "nook-le-ar" and that might be confusing.

Possibly someone should have a quiet conversation with the teacher concerned and see just how bad the accent is, and take it from there.

As for teaching experience, I'd like to stick my neck out here, and say that TEFLA would be a total necessity before standing in front of a class.

[lostinisaan]

I have worked with teachers in Asia from many countries. Few of us have perfect accents, and to be honest, the worst I ever heard was a nice guy from the UK, with such a strong regional accent I had trouble following him.

Filipinos in my experience have been quite good, apart from the odd weakness in spelling, and whereas we Aussies tend to be lazy with our "r"s so that mother become mutha and brutha and so on. The Filipinos tend to over-emphasise the "R" sound, much more than an American speaker.

I could imagine the your student's problem is "Nuclear' being pronounced "nook-le-ar" and that might be confusing.

Possibly someone should have a quiet conversation with the teacher concerned and see just how bad the accent is, and take it from there.

As for teaching experience, I'd like to stick my neck out here, and say that TEFLA would be a total necessity before standing in front of a class.

Thanks for your post, but it wasn't the word "nuclear." It was "nucleus". But the student - and all the others- heard "nucloose."

(The nucleus of an atom or cell is the central part of it.)

So please think about what a huge difference in pronunciation that would be. Similar to loose.

[Slip]

I have worked with teachers in Asia from many countries. Few of us have perfect accents, and to be honest, the worst I ever heard was a nice guy from the UK, with such a strong regional accent I had trouble following him.

Filipinos in my experience have been quite good, apart from the odd weakness in spelling, and whereas we Aussies tend to be lazy with our "r"s so that mother become mutha and brutha and so on. The Filipinos tend to over-emphasise the "R" sound, much more than an American speaker.

I could imagine the your student's problem is "Nuclear' being pronounced "nook-le-ar" and that might be confusing.

Possibly someone should have a quiet conversation with the teacher concerned and see just how bad the accent is, and take it from there.

As for teaching experience, I'd like to stick my neck out here, and say that TEFLA would be a total necessity before standing in front of a class.

Are you a teacher yourself? The weak 'R' you refer to is called a schwa and is a well recognised feature of pronunciation. (There are 2 in each of your examples). It is of course arguably a responsibility of teachers/ schools to prepare their charges to be able to deal with the huge variety of accents out in the real world.

I would have to disagree with your TEFLA comment: Although I agree it is likely to be helpful for most, it is not a necessity by any means.

To the OP: I think if your ex-student is already at the point of being able to critique others, he/she should be OK in the long run.

[masuk]

I have worked with teachers in Asia from many countries. Few of us have perfect accents, and to be honest, the worst I ever heard was a nice guy from the UK, with such a strong regional accent I had trouble following him.

Filipinos in my experience have been quite good, apart from the odd weakness in spelling, and whereas we Aussies tend to be lazy with our "r"s so that mother become mutha and brutha and so on. The Filipinos tend to over-emphasise the "R" sound, much more than an American speaker.

I could imagine the your student's problem is "Nuclear' being pronounced "nook-le-ar" and that might be confusing.

Possibly someone should have a quiet conversation with the teacher concerned and see just how bad the accent is, and take it from there.

As for teaching experience, I'd like to stick my neck out here, and say that TEFLA would be a total necessity before standing in front of a class.

Are you a teacher yourself? The weak 'R' you refer to is called a schwa and is a well recognised feature of pronunciation. (There are 2 in each of your examples). It is of course arguably a responsibility of teachers/ schools to prepare their charges to be able to deal with the huge variety of accents out in the real world.

I would have to disagree with your TEFLA comment: Although I agree it is likely to be helpful for most, it is not a necessity by any means.

To the OP: I think if your ex-student is already at the point of being able to critique others, he/she should be OK in the long run.

Yes, I think after 8 years of teaching English in Asia, I do know what a schwa is, but this forum is not for teachers only.

Well, I wouldn't send a child to a hairdressers who had never had any training, and I feel the same applies to teachers. As I said, the TEFLA is the minimum standard, and no amount of experience without some basic training would help. Why do you think almost all schools ask for TEFLA training, except possibly Thailand who insist on a degree in anything at all!

[lostinisaan]

"Yes, I think after 8 years of teaching English in Asia, I do know what a schwa is, but this forum is not for teachers only".

Excuse my impertinence, but I thought that I posted this thread in the "teaching forum." All I wanted to know what I should tell the student, who's asking for help.

Nothing else matters.

Edited November 20, 2014 by lostinisaan

[Slip]

I have worked with teachers in Asia from many countries. Few of us have perfect accents, and to be honest, the worst I ever heard was a nice guy from the UK, with such a strong regional accent I had trouble following him.

Filipinos in my experience have been quite good, apart from the odd weakness in spelling, and whereas we Aussies tend to be lazy with our "r"s so that mother become mutha and brutha and so on. The Filipinos tend to over-emphasise the "R" sound, much more than an American speaker.

I could imagine the your student's problem is "Nuclear' being pronounced "nook-le-ar" and that might be confusing.

Possibly someone should have a quiet conversation with the teacher concerned and see just how bad the accent is, and take it from there.

As for teaching experience, I'd like to stick my neck out here, and say that TEFLA would be a total necessity before standing in front of a class.

Are you a teacher yourself? The weak 'R' you refer to is called a schwa and is a well recognised feature of pronunciation. (There are 2 in each of your examples). It is of course arguably a responsibility of teachers/ schools to prepare their charges to be able to deal with the huge variety of accents out in the real world.

I would have to disagree with your TEFLA comment: Although I agree it is likely to be helpful for most, it is not a necessity by any means.

To the OP: I think if your ex-student is already at the point of being able to critique others, he/she should be OK in the long run.

Yes, I think after 8 years of teaching English in Asia, I do know what a schwa is, but this forum is not for teachers only.

Well, I wouldn't send a child to a hairdressers who had never had any training, and I feel the same applies to teachers. As I said, the TEFLA is the minimum standard, and no amount of experience without some basic training would help. Why do you think almost all schools ask for TEFLA training, except possibly Thailand who insist on a degree in anything at all!

Well fair enough but, you know, do't be shy- call a schwa a schwa.

As LostinIsaan points out, this is actually the teaching in Thailand forum.

I\m intrigued about your second idea as I always am when I hear it. If the said untrained hairdresser was well known in his field, had years of experience, and consistently produced excellent results to the satisfaction of his customers, would you still be so shy?

Can you explain the specifics of TEFLA as compared to standard TEFL?

I have no 'training' as such, but I have been teaching here for 13 years, I'm a graduate, and I have done a lot of independent study. While mentoring a friend through their TEFL qualification, I had plenty of experience of the training of the 'TEFL' qualifications, and frankly I would consider it a waste of money personally.

My experience of training teachers here is that healthy intelligence, enthusiasm, rapport building capabilities, organisation, and the desire to improve oneself are far more useful than a TEFL certificate which is a poor brother to an undergraduate degree.

Once again back to the OP: I've been thinking about this- I think this student is missing you as her teacher at the same time she has to try to fit into a new place. My advice is be supportive but stand off. She needs to deal with this on her own 2 feet.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Slip

[lostinisaan]

I have worked with teachers in Asia from many countries. Few of us have perfect accents, and to be honest, the worst I ever heard was a nice guy from the UK, with such a strong regional accent I had trouble following him.

Filipinos in my experience have been quite good, apart from the odd weakness in spelling, and whereas we Aussies tend to be lazy with our "r"s so that mother become mutha and brutha and so on. The Filipinos tend to over-emphasise the "R" sound, much more than an American speaker.

I could imagine the your student's problem is "Nuclear' being pronounced "nook-le-ar" and that might be confusing.

Possibly someone should have a quiet conversation with the teacher concerned and see just how bad the accent is, and take it from there.

As for teaching experience, I'd like to stick my neck out here, and say that TEFLA would be a total necessity before standing in front of a class.

Are you a teacher yourself? The weak 'R' you refer to is called a schwa and is a well recognised feature of pronunciation. (There are 2 in each of your examples). It is of course arguably a responsibility of teachers/ schools to prepare their charges to be able to deal with the huge variety of accents out in the real world.

I would have to disagree with your TEFLA comment: Although I agree it is likely to be helpful for most, it is not a necessity by any means.

To the OP: I think if your ex-student is already at the point of being able to critique others, he/she should be OK in the long run.

Yes, I think after 8 years of teaching English in Asia, I do know what a schwa is, but this forum is not for teachers only.

Well, I wouldn't send a child to a hairdressers who had never had any training, and I feel the same applies to teachers. As I said, the TEFLA is the minimum standard, and no amount of experience without some basic training would help. Why do you think almost all schools ask for TEFLA training, except possibly Thailand who insist on a degree in anything at all!

Well fair enough but, you know, do't be shy- call a schwa a schwa.

As LostinIsaan points out, this is actually the teaching in Thailand forum.

I\m intrigued about your second idea as I always am when I hear it. If the said untrained hairdresser was well known in his field, had years of experience, and consistently produced excellent results to the satisfaction of his customers, would you still be so shy?

Can you explain the specifics of TEFLA as compared to standard TEFL?

I have no 'training' as such, but I have been teaching here for 13 years, I'm a graduate, and I have done a lot of independent study. While mentoring a friend through their TEFL qualification, I had plenty of experience of the training of the 'TEFL' qualifications, and frankly I would consider it a waste of money personally.

My experience of training teachers here is that healthy intelligence, enthusiasm, rapport building capabilities, organisation, and the desire to improve oneself are far more useful than a TEFL certificate which is a poor brother to an undergraduate degree.

Once again back to the OP: I've been thinking about this- I think this student is missing you as her teacher at the same time she has to try to fit into a new place. My advice is be supportive but stand off. She needs to deal with this on her own 2 feet.

I've just send an e-mail to the head teacher of the school and pointed some issues out, as it seems that the girl isn't alone, having problems to understand certain teachers.

I did give her my personal advice and might sort it out, by visiting her school's administration. I know the head teacher quite well and it shouldn't be in their interest to lose good students.

Thanks a lot for your post. Cheers.-

[lostinisaan]

I have worked with teachers in Asia from many countries. Few of us have perfect accents, and to be honest, the worst I ever heard was a nice guy from the UK, with such a strong regional accent I had trouble following him.

Filipinos in my experience have been quite good, apart from the odd weakness in spelling, and whereas we Aussies tend to be lazy with our "r"s so that mother become mutha and brutha and so on. The Filipinos tend to over-emphasise the "R" sound, much more than an American speaker.

I could imagine the your student's problem is "Nuclear' being pronounced "nook-le-ar" and that might be confusing.

Possibly someone should have a quiet conversation with the teacher concerned and see just how bad the accent is, and take it from there.

As for teaching experience, I'd like to stick my neck out here, and say that TEFLA would be a total necessity before standing in front of a class.

Are you a teacher yourself? The weak 'R' you refer to is called a schwa and is a well recognised feature of pronunciation. (There are 2 in each of your examples). It is of course arguably a responsibility of teachers/ schools to prepare their charges to be able to deal with the huge variety of accents out in the real world.

I would have to disagree with your TEFLA comment: Although I agree it is likely to be helpful for most, it is not a necessity by any means.

To the OP: I think if your ex-student is already at the point of being able to critique others, he/she should be OK in the long run.

Yes, I think after 8 years of teaching English in Asia, I do know what a schwa is, but this forum is not for teachers only.

Well, I wouldn't send a child to a hairdressers who had never had any training, and I feel the same applies to teachers. As I said, the TEFLA is the minimum standard, and no amount of experience without some basic training would help. Why do you think almost all schools ask for TEFLA training, except possibly Thailand who insist on a degree in anything at all!

I don't really get your point of view and see my TEFL and TESOL as unnecessary pieces of papers.

No school superiors were really interested in seeing them and it doesn't mean a lot to me either.

Would have been great what you'd tell to your ex students, but it's almost solved. Thanks and a G'Day.-

Edited November 21, 2014 by lostinisaan

[Scott]

Students, especially in Asia, are going to be communicating with a lot of different nationalities. It is important that they get accustomed to different accents.

[lostinisaan]

Students, especially in Asia, are going to be communicating with a lot of different nationalities. It is important that they get accustomed to different accents.

I totally agree with you on that, Scott. But what would you think/do/ write/answer when a word's so messed up like this one?:

"nucleus". But the student - and all the others- heard "nucloose."

This is not about an accent anymore, but i do know where you're coming from. A completely mispronounced word isn't acceptable.

Please say both words loud and tell me what you think.She always was a very good student, Cheers.-

P.S. I also believe that native English speakers from let's say Scotland should adjust their English to their students' understanding.

And not believing that the students are dumb, if they don't get it.

" Sex" students, or six students?

Edited November 21, 2014 by lostinisaan

[Scott]

I think if it is one word then the student is making a mountain out of a molehill.

It is hard to assess the situation since the student is ranking 29/30 in one subject, so she needs to make a decision about what she wants to do. If she wants to remain with her class, then she is going to have start working with this program.

I tend to have a little bit of trouble with students who think they are in the best situation to critique a program and the teachers.

[lostinisaan]

I think if it is one word then the student is making a mountain out of a molehill.

It is hard to assess the situation since the student is ranking 29/30 in one subject, so she needs to make a decision about what she wants to do. If she wants to remain with her class, then she is going to have start working with this program.

I tend to have a little bit of trouble with students who think they are in the best situation to critique a program and the teachers.

She's usually very shy and took her quite a long time to let me know what her problem was. I do appreciate her "critical thinking", which was a sort of developed through me.

Isn't it a great feeling when ex students are asking you for advice? I might be wrong.......................

They are allowed to ask me questions and really do so, which isn't the case when with a Thai teacher, the unwritten law by the MoE.

And being 14 doesn't make it better, roughly speaking.

Edited November 21, 2014 by lostinisaan

[SheungWan]

What are the girl's choices if she withdraws from either the class or the school she is currently attending? ie what alternatives are there?

[lostinisaan]

What are the girl's choices if she withdraws from either the class or the school she is currently attending? ie what alternatives are there?

She could study in the ordinary program with 55 kids in a class, an hour of English per week, taught by a foreign teacher from an agency.

But she would like to study all subjects in an understandable English. Some math tutoring seems to be necessary.

I'll never forget how happy and thankful she was, when she passed the entrance test for the EP, which wasn't really easy.

Changing schools to another EP could be very expensive, as you have to pay a lot of money to another school, plus the usually very high tuition fee.

[SlyAnimal]

If they were one of your P6 students, who is now in M1, and they were capable of writing that e-mail, then they'll have no problems at all with their studies.

As their English is already at a higher standard than many Thai teachers.

They will encounter various different accents as they study English, different accents are part of the language. It's not really ideal, but if they're able to write a letter like that, then they're at a level where accents shouldn't hinder them too much.

[lostinisaan]

If they were one of your P6 students, who is now in M1, and they were capable of writing that e-mail, then they'll have no problems at all with their studies.

As their English is already at a higher standard than many Thai teachers.

They will encounter various different accents as they study English, different accents are part of the language. It's not really ideal, but if they're able to write a letter like that, then they're at a level where accents shouldn't hinder them too much.

She was my student in grade four, then I followed them to grade five, then to grade six in an ordinary program, with two hours a week taught by me and another two by a Thai English teacher.

She's in M.2 now and also her spoken English seems to be better than those of the Thai English teachers at my former school.

She was the one who had to sit in a demonstration lesson, where a "teacher" made the old and superb: "Head, shoulders, knees and toes" demo lesson.

But the "teacher" pronounced toes in a way that it sounded like doos, dooze, or doose.

I had to sit in this demonstration lesson together with the Thai superiors, when the same students, at this time in grade six, ponied this out to me, while the Thai teachers, "observing" the applicant, didn't even get it.

Then "interactions" with students to" come here and write in board." This is not a problem with not understanding an accent.

Not wanting to sound boring, but it's not about different accents. The example she gave me, was a classic one and such a mispronunciation should never happen, when you're teaching physics.

If a teacher, no matter what nationality, isn't able to say the word nucleus properly and says: nucloose instead, it's not the student who's to blame.

My point being is that too many words also in other subjects are just mispronounced, which has nothing to do with an English, American, Australian, Germish, or Filipino accent. A wrong pronounced word will always be a wrong pronounced word.

Edited November 23, 2014 by lostinisaan

[Kf6vci]

M2 is a difficult age. My M2s were simply insufferable as a group, but okay as troubled individuals.

Seems this girl should change schools - there appears to be a lot more going really badly than just the stuff she is talking about.

Here, all the know is @#$@$#@!ing grammar. That's taught at the government schools, but we at this language center cover the same ground. Why? I suspect it has to do with th ecomfort zone of local teachers who dread speaking English...

There is a tremendous difference between a truly NES and someone who isn't - in many cases. "PUSS" might be pronounced like PUSSY etc.

Do schools care? Yes, about the money they can save. I've met English teachers who couldn't understand an American and vice versa. Enough said.

It's often a farce and students instinctively pick up whether someone is good, or not.

[lostinisaan]

M2 is a difficult age. My M2s were simply insufferable as a group, but okay as troubled individuals.

Seems this girl should change schools - there appears to be a lot more going really badly than just the stuff she is talking about.

Here, all the know is @#$@$#@!ing grammar. That's taught at the government schools, but we at this language center cover the same ground. Why? I suspect it has to do with th ecomfort zone of local teachers who dread speaking English...

There is a tremendous difference between a truly NES and someone who isn't - in many cases. "PUSS" might be pronounced like PUSSY etc.

Do schools care? Yes, about the money they can save. I've met English teachers who couldn't understand an American and vice versa. Enough said.

It's often a farce and students instinctively pick up whether someone is good, or not.

I did have a long chat with the student and I gave her the advice to stay at this school. Too many others are complaining about the same guy she was on about.

The superiors of the school are aware of the "problem" and have promised to "adjust" the teacher's English, or let him go. Would be great if you could just "adjust" somebody's speech.....

I just had the head teacher of the EP on the phone, but promising something and actually doing so, are two different shoes.

I assume she'll get over it, I sent her plenty of links and PPS where she'll be able to self study math, her weak subject.

Your example with your PUSSY isn't far away from reality...a few moons ago, when a new school year had just started and all foreign English teachers had to stand up and introduce themselves.

So we started our introductions.....

A new "colleague" stood up and said exactly these words:

" I from the XXXXXXXXXXXXXX. We have many beautiful bitches in our country".

Three of us couldn't stop laughing, as we got hit by a real laugh attack and couldn't stop for about 10 minutes.

Then I started to work at another school, didn't see her for a couple of years.

When my family and I went to a little steak place in Sisaket many moons later, a woman approached me and it took quite a while for me to realize that it was the teacher with the incredible description about her country's bitches.

When I said hello and asked her: "How is it going?" She pointed to the grill at the restaurant and said:

" I go,eat steak."

But I do know that plenty Americans have a huge problem to understand certain people from the UK.

So if native English speakers can't understand each other, how should Thai students be better?

Might be the reason that all British movies have to be synchronized, before they reach American TV's.

Okay this is because of some local slang, but the student I mentioned complains about completely wrong pronounced words, coming from her teacher.

A bitch is a bitch and I like to hang out at a beach. It's that easy. Or maybe not. Or both.

Edited November 27, 2014 by lostinisaan

[crabdog]

I realise that this problem relates to many foreign teachers and not just Filipinos - myself being Australian I tend to be lazy with pronunciation sometimes as another poster mentioned "mutha" kind of thing. Having said that however, I've had a lot of experience with aforementioned teachers and am still surprised at the poor levels of English they have. I'm certainly not saying they're all like this. Some of them speak very well and are great teachers as well.

In the first Thai school I worked at I was really shocked one day when a young student had left his shoes on the playground and one of the Filipino teachers called him over and asked "Is dis yor shoo?" Obviously the question should have been "Are these your shoes?" So often the problem is not just poor pronunciation but poor pronunciation on top of horrendously poor grammar.

[lostinisaan]

I realise that this problem relates to many foreign teachers and not just Filipinos - myself being Australian I tend to be lazy with pronunciation sometimes as another poster mentioned "mutha" kind of thing. Having said that however, I've had a lot of experience with aforementioned teachers and am still surprised at the poor levels of English they have. I'm certainly not saying they're all like this. Some of them speak very well and are great teachers as well.

In the first Thai school I worked at I was really shocked one day when a young student had left his shoes on the playground and one of the Filipino teachers called him over and asked "Is dis yor shoo?" Obviously the question should have been "Are these your shoes?" So often the problem is not just poor pronunciation but poor pronunciation on top of horrendously poor grammar.

Student to teacher: "What's your favourite number?" Scottish Teacher: " I like sex." Student: "Me thinks your mom had quite a lot with Nessy, mate".

Edited November 28, 2014 by lostinisaan

[aarontendo]

I think there's something to be said for minding your own business in this case. Are you now actively trying to get a teacher at another school in trouble? Why?

If there are that many students complaining let their parents or the school they attend deal with it.

[lostinisaan]

I think there's something to be said for minding your own business in this case. Are you now actively trying to get a teacher at another school in trouble? Why?

If there are that many students complaining let their parents or the school they attend deal with it.

I was never "trying to get another teacher in trouble." It seems that it was a huge mistake to open this thread,which was really meant to get some good advice.

If you really believe that this is my own business, thank you very much for your advice. I hope you're aware how parents are dealing with such problems?

The head teacher of said institution only wanted to have the kid's name, not even the teacher's in question and I don't think for a good reason.

I've seen how they treat students and it wasn't nice.

Most students would never even talk about their problems to others, because they're scared to death.

I know quite a few other students with similar problems in a system where asking questions isn't allowed.

So how will the Thais at this school handle such a situation?

Of course not in favor of the student(s). In a system, where they're not even allowed to ask their teachers a question, because they could lose their faces.

I'll try to get in touch with some of the parents which is pretty difficult because I don't live/work in this province anymore.

Wouldn't you think that the girl found it pretty difficult to contact me first place? I truly believe that somebody who's working in the same system has a much better understanding of eventually upcoming problems and how to solve them than parents who barely know what's going on in class.

The girl's mom would never go to see the principle, or head teacher alone, as some Thai teachers believe they come right after god.

Just to let you know why I posted this thread. I had seven hours grade one kids yesterday, five hours of our EP class. Today five hours EP grade one, plus two hours grade three right now.

I apologize for my thread, if it annoys you that much.

[SlyAnimal]

I've removed a post due to "Naming & Shaming". As the Thai defamation/slander laws being much more strict than in the west, as here if you say something negative about a business/person which may cause them to lose business/customers, then you are potentially opened up to legal action.

In general, regarding this thread, the best bet is for the student to discuss this subject with their family and other teachers (Including the OP of course). As outsiders looking in, any other members of the forum don't have the full picture, and so can't give advice which would necessarily be appropriate to the situation.

Also this thread does, in many ways, seem to be less about helping the student, and more about ranting about the quality of teachers from particular countries.

As a result, I'm going to close this thread, before it snowballs into something worse than what it already is.

If you believe that the above isn't the case, then please feel free to PM me asking for the thread to be re-opened, and I can take this into consideration.