Grouting question

[jimmybkk]

Hi all, my pool needs re-grouting and I'm looking for some advice/suggestions. The gaps between the tiles in the pool are quite wide and deep - I guess around 6-8mm wide and about 6mm deep. The old grout has just about all been eaten away. The tiles themselves are around 80mm x 80mm. In my local (Pattaya) Homepro I was shown some waterproof grout that the guy suggested is suitable for grouting a swimming pool, but because of the size of the gaps between the tiles it would cost me a fortune to grout the whole pool with this stuff. I understand that regular grout mixed with some kind of waterproofing compound is also acceptable. What I am wondering is whether I would be better off doing it in 2 stages using something other than grout to part-fill those gaps first (perhaps some kind of mortar?) and then applying grout on top of the mortar? Or should I just do it all with grout?

Can anyone recommend what waterproofing compound I should use? A pic of the can or bottle would be great if possible. Finally, once I've finished is there any sealant I can apply to offer some additional protection to the grout? It's a chlorine pool - here are a couple of pics showing the tiles.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

[craigt3365]

3 of us in our village recently regrouted with that stuff from HomePro/Works/???. I think it's Crocodile brand??? It's already coming off. Terrible. Because the joints are wide, you need to use sanded grout.

I've no other help than this. I just hope our regrout lasts more than 3 years. Not so sure though....

[fdimike]

First of all I don't know what you consider to be a fortune. Unsanded STANDARD tile grout is really not suitable for pools for a number of reasons. Water stresses on the pool walls, chlorine, temperatures, mildew, etc etc. I know people who say that there is no problem using standard grout but think about it they make swimming pool grout for a reason and it's just not marketing.

As far as I know there are 2 brands of swimming pool grout - Super Champ for Pools and Weber for Pools. Unsanded grout which is available here in LOS is also not suitable for joints as wide as you describe. Read the pacakge to see what size joint the grout can be used in. Typically you will need sanded grout for a joint the size you describe. Unfortunately, that is a problem here in LOS. The only company I know wheich carries sanded grout is Crocodile and it only comes in white and you'll probably have to special order it. If you need need another color you can make sanded grout yourself by just adding fine sand to standard colored grout. You can do exactly the same thing with swimming pool grout to achieve the necessary strength.

[Anthony5]

I know that Home and pool uses white cement to grout, which is the cheapest option you can think about. I used Weber grout for pools and are quite happy with it after about 5 years.

The most expensive, most difficult to apply but best option is the 2 components grout, think they call that epoxy or so in English.

When considering the price of grout take into account that if you have to re-grout after a few years it will cost you much more in labor than the most expensive grout will cost you today .

[SwimmingPoolsThailand]

The special Crocodile Platinum for swimming pools is in stock at most larger Home Mart stores, but they will order it for you.

The Weber brand pool grout is sold in Global House and possibly in some branches of Thai Watsadu, Do Home, and Home Hub. It is about twice the price of the Crocodile.

No truly professional pool constructor would use any normal grout.

To prevent problems with grout and any other cementicious materials in pools, it is extremely important to maintain a correct water chemistry. In particular the Total Alkalinity and water hardness levels. Most people are not even aware of the importance of maintaining these levels, being content just to measure pH and Total Chlorine with the cheap simple test kits in the blue box (which are OK for very small pools only).

[Anthony5]

The special Crocodile Platinum for swimming pools is in stock at most larger Home Mart stores, but they will order it for you.

The Weber brand pool grout is sold in Global House. It is about twice the price of the Crocodile.

No truly professional pool constructor would use any normal grout.

To prevent problems with grout and any other cementicious materials in pools, it is extremely important to maintain a correct water chemistry. In particular the Total Alkalinity and water hardness levels. Most people are not even aware of the importance of maintaining these levels, being content just to measure pH and Total Chlorine with the cheap simple test kits in the blue box (which are OK for very small pools only).

As a swimming pool constructor, do you consider the Weber worth the premium over the Crocodile?

[SwimmingPoolsThailand]

Both products are designed specifically for pools. It is a question of budget and/or customer preference. By default, we stock and use Crocodile Platinum grout for pools on small to medium domestic pool builds because it impacts less on the price of the pool.

On commercial and/or large budget pools, we let the customer decide after explaining the price difference. On high profile projects, the architects sometimes specify Weber, but probably just because they believe 'expensive is better'.

It is very difficult to get labour teams to tile and grout pools properly even if you show them how and provide them with the right tools. It is the moment when you have to supervise the construction every minute of the day because if you don't, they will do it their way, which is the wrong way, the long way, and often very wasteful of the expensive pool grout.

Using expensive Muifa or TheThreeTouch 'antique' style tiles is asking to use up to three or even four times time more grout than normal, thinner, close-laid tiles.

[SantiSuk]

Very honourable of you not to plug the fact that you stock both Weber and Crocodile platinum grouting Mr Swimming Pools Thailand.

.

[SwimmingPoolsThailand]

Very honourable of you not to plug the fact that you stock both Weber and Crocodile platinum grouting Mr Swimming Pools Thailand.

.

Our posts here are perfectly in accordance with the rules and regulations for ThaiVisa sponsors.

We do not stock Weber swimming pool grout in large quantities, however, it is our policy to offer a catalog of pool prducts as complete as possible. We carry a significant stock of Crocodile Platinum grout, mainly for our own use with swimming pool construction / refurbishment contracts. What we stock, we also offer online.

For online customers who live in urban areas, we do not hesitate to inform them that they can purchase some products slightly more economically in their nearby retail outlets. According to some sources, there may actually be more expats living in rural areas than in the traditional 'farang' hotspots, some of whom live 100s of Km from their nearest physical swimming pools supplies store or major building materials/home improvements hypermarket.

[jimmybkk]

Many thanks for all replies and suggestions.

The reason I said it would cost me a fortune to use the swimming pool grout the guy in Homepro recommended is because i was browsing around the 25kg bags of grout in amongst the Sika waterproofing products and the like, figuring that 25kg would probably be around the quantity required. When I told the staff I was looking for grout for a swimming pool I was taken to another section where the guy showed me these small (1kg?) bags of the specialist stuff. I need to go back and recheck the price (and the brand), but I just remember thinking I would need bags and bags of it to fill my wide gaps, and when he told me how much for one bag a quick mental calculation told me that this is something I would need to shop around for and get advice on.

The price of the Crocodile Platinum is more in line with what I was expecting. Do I understand correctly that even with this product I would need to add sand? What would be the correct ratio of sand to grout?

Regarding labor costs, for the reasons mentioned by SwimmingPools Thailand I am planning on doing the grouting myself.

Thanks also for the tip on total alkalinity and water hardness. Until now we'd been using a selection of local guys to take care of the pool maintenance, but I think I will take over this myself. One time my missus went for a swim and when she got out her swimsuit was about 3 shades lighter than when she went in. I think a lot of these guys operate with a "If it ain't broke, add some more chlorine anyway, just in case..." mentality.

Thanks again for the advice.

[Anthony5]

You don't add anything but water to grout, just be careful that you don't mix more than you can handle as it dries fast.

I hope the swimsuit comment was some kind of sarcasm, because if that is true, your water balance is at health threatening levels or you should spend more on a swimsuit next time.

There is a good forum called troublefreepool.com, where you can learn a lot about pool chemistry.

Get yourself a 5 or 7 way test kit from Ebay, and save a lot of money on useless pool boys.

[fdimike]

The OP is asking how much sand is needed to turn NON SANDED grout into SANDED grout. I don't know the ratio but you should be able to locate that info on the net. The alternative is to read the poolgrout label to see what size joint it can be used in. The pool grout I used says it can be used in joints up to 6mm. However, I would be cautious using it on joints that large as it may not last. The guidance I have always seen is you will need sanded grout on joints wider than 1/8".

The only sanded grout I have seen in Thailand is made by Crocodile brand and is available at Home Mart centers. They should be able to order it if it's not in stock.

I used Super Champ Extra 3 Plus pool grout but I have very small joints in between the 4" tile.

I hope this helps.

[Anthony5]

The OP is asking how much sand is needed to turn NON SANDED grout into SANDED grout. I don't know the ratio but you should be able to locate that info on the net. The alternative is to read the poolgrout label to see what size joint it can be used in. The pool grout I used says it can be used in joints up to 6mm. However, I would be cautious using it on joints that large as it may not last. The guidance I have always seen is you will need sanded grout on joints wider than 1/8".

The only sanded grout I have seen in Thailand is made by Crocodile brand and is available at Home Mart centers. They should be able to order it if it's not in stock.

I used Super Champ Extra 3 Plus pool grout but I have very small joints in between the 4" tile.

I hope this helps.

I think pool specific grouts are some kind of sanded grouts, as you say the crocodile grout is sanded, and my experience is that the weber pool grout has something in it that makes it non sanded. I'm not sure if it is sand, but it has some grain inside.

I would also refrain from making a non sanded grout into sanded grout, because if one mix has more or less sand added compared to another mix it will result in a different color.

[fdimike]

Pool specific grout may or may not be sanded. It should say on the package if it's sanded grout. Additionally, the package should say it's for joints greater than 6mm or something to that effect. Pool specific grout has a number of additives to make it stronger and more "elastic" as well as resistant to pool chemicals, and mildew/mold.

[jimmybkk]

Thanks for your input guys.

I saw some Crocodile Platinum on my travels today but everything on the label was in Thai so I'm not sure if it is sanded or unsanded. On their English language website it also doesn't say which it is, nor does it offer any information on joint size.

In any event I think because my joints are so wide it may not do any harm to add some sand to it. I've got some nice garnet sand that will look good mixed with the white grout I think.

I'll let you know how it goes....

[fdimike]

Here's the web site for Crocodile products to include grout. Each type of grout describes where it can be used and what size joint it will work with. Their Gold brand is sanded grout.

http://www.cera.co.th/product.php?lang=en&nest_under=2&cat_id=0

[raro]

Same problem as the OP and apparently the same kind of tiles / gaps.

I am completely incapable of doing anything construction, so I need someone to do the job.

Any idea how much I have to budget for a 10 x 5 m Pool?

Who is a reputable company in Pattaya to do this job?

[SantiSuk]

I think I'm right in saying that I have rarely if ever seen anyone on Thai Visa pool forums put their neck on the line and recommend a pool builder! Not sure what that says about the industry

If you don't get any other answer, Pool Doctor appears to be substantial/reputable for commercial and domestic pools and its web sites and postings on here seem to emphasise quality of solutions over price. I know that they will do pool rescue jobs and are based in Pattaya.

[DrDave]

Same problem as the OP and apparently the same kind of tiles / gaps.

I am completely incapable of doing anything construction, so I need someone to do the job.

Any idea how much I have to budget for a 10 x 5 m Pool?

Who is a reputable company in Pattaya to do this job?

Just had mine done - same issues, nearly all grout eaten away with large gaps between 6 inch tiles.

Total cost for labor and Weber pool grout was about 70,000 baht for a 4 x 7 m pool. Quite a bit of time spent removing all traces of the old grout.

I'm typically a DIY kind of guy, but this isn't something I'd want to do myself - you need to have a submersible pump to completely drain the pool, and a strong wet-vac at a minimum.

[fdimike]

I can't help with a contractor but I can offer a bit of help with the type grout to use. First of all you need to know the width of the joint. Some high end grout may be good for joints up to 6 or 7mm if you believe the manufacturers advertising. However, I believe that's really stretching things.To be safe large joints (probably greater than 3 or 4mm REQUIRE sanded grout to maintain integrity of the joint. Looking at the Crocodile website (www.cera.co.th) you'll find GOLD CROCODILE GROUT contains graded silica sand and is available in 40 standard colors. I don't know what the other brands have but you can easily check them out on the net.

The next thing to consider is how to mix the grout correctly. All grout in Thailand to the best of my knowledge has instructions in both Thai and English on the package. I would STRONGLY suggest you insist the workers follow those instructions to the letter. The typical Thai laborer will add water to the grout, mix it and use immediately. This is incorrect as you should add grout to the correct amount of water. Once you have the correct consistency (something like peanut butter) let the grout sit (slack) for a few minutes before using it. READ the instructions first before mixing the grout as different manufacturers may mix the grout differently.

I hope this helps.

[jimmybkk]

A guy I met the other day recently grouted his pool using Crocodile Platinum and based on the quantity he used I think I'm looking at 2 x 20kg tubs. My pool's about 3m x 6m.

[raro]

Same problem as the OP and apparently the same kind of tiles / gaps.

I am completely incapable of doing anything construction, so I need someone to do the job.

Any idea how much I have to budget for a 10 x 5 m Pool?

Who is a reputable company in Pattaya to do this job?

Just had mine done - same issues, nearly all grout eaten away with large gaps between 6 inch tiles.

Total cost for labor and Weber pool grout was about 70,000 baht for a 4 x 7 m pool. Quite a bit of time spent removing all traces of the old grout.

I'm typically a DIY kind of guy, but this isn't something I'd want to do myself - you need to have a submersible pump to completely drain the pool, and a strong wet-vac at a minimum.

Holy sh*t! Then I'm probably looking at some 100 k....

[DrDave]

Same problem as the OP and apparently the same kind of tiles / gaps.

I am completely incapable of doing anything construction, so I need someone to do the job.

Any idea how much I have to budget for a 10 x 5 m Pool?

Who is a reputable company in Pattaya to do this job?

Just had mine done - same issues, nearly all grout eaten away with large gaps between 6 inch tiles.

Total cost for labor and Weber pool grout was about 70,000 baht for a 4 x 7 m pool. Quite a bit of time spent removing all traces of the old grout.

I'm typically a DIY kind of guy, but this isn't something I'd want to do myself - you need to have a submersible pump to completely drain the pool, and a strong wet-vac at a minimum.

Holy sh*t! Then I'm probably looking at some 100 k....

Yup, it ain't cheap!

On the bright side, if they use the right grout, and you keep the water balanced, you won't have to do it again for a long, long time.

Assuming an average pool depth of 1.5m, I have 33m2 of wall, and 28m2 of floor for a total of 61m2. You have about 45m2 of wall and 50m2 of floor for a total of 95m2, or about 1.5 times more tile than me, so I'd estimate about 105K. (You might be able to find someone to do it for less in Pattaya, and you might be able to save a little if you buy the grout yourself).

[IMHO]

Am I the only person reading this and thinking "Fibreglass pools for the win!" ?

[raro]

Other question.... If I don't do the grouting, does this bear any possible consecutive damage or is it just cosmetics?

[fdimike]

If your pool was built with waterproofing added to the concrete in the correct proportion then I don't think missing grout will have any ill effects on the pool itself.

[DrDave]

Other question.... If I don't do the grouting, does this bear any possible consecutive damage or is it just cosmetics?

Depending upon the quality of the mortar/installation, the grout may be all that's holding some of the tiles in place. Losing the grout may cause the tiles to loosen, which if on the floor may not be noticed until you drain the pool, or otherwise disturb them. In my case, I had * a lot * of loose tiles.

Also, depending upon the quality of the initial build (proper waterproofing), you may be losing water through contact with the exposed cement between the tiles.

[Anthony5]

If your pool was built with waterproofing added to the concrete in the correct proportion then I don't think missing grout will have any ill effects on the pool itself.

An engineer in concrete construction for over 30 years with a multinational which are specialised in nuclear power plants, told me once that waterproof concrete doesn't exist, so I doubt that Cpac are alike have it.

[fdimike]

I would have to disagree with you and your friend regarding waterproof concrete. Waterproofing concrete is nothing new as it has been around for a long time. A special addiditive is added to the concrete when mixed which effectively seals the concrete when it cures. You can see some of the same types of addidtives for sale right here in Thailand at just about any home center. I can't even imagine what would happen to all those underwater tunnels which have been built since the days of the Great Depression in the the US if waterproof concrete was not used. The Holland and Lincoln tunnels in NY which are still being used today come to mind first.

[Anthony5]

I would have to disagree with you and your friend regarding waterproof concrete. Waterproofing concrete is nothing new as it has been around for a long time. A special addiditive is added to the concrete when mixed which effectively seals the concrete when it cures. You can see some of the same types of addidtives for sale right here in Thailand at just about any home center. I can't even imagine what would happen to all those underwater tunnels which have been built since the days of the Great Depression in the the US if waterproof concrete was not used. The Holland and Lincoln tunnels in NY which are still being used today come to mind first.

So called waterproof concrete is actually water tight concrete, the "waterproof" additives prevent the concrete from shrinking and cracking which allows water to seep through.

http://www.dmireadymix.com/products/view/waterproof-concrete

Concrete, as strong as it may be, cannot stop water from seeping though it and forming cracks and over time deterioration.

There are many quality integral water proofing products on the market and once combined with a high quality low water to cement ratio concrete you will have a concrete that can stand up to some of the toughest element such as seawater, wastewater, and aggressive ground water as well as many aggressive chemical solutions.

http://hansonready-mixconcrete.co.uk/products/watertight/

Every good quality concrete will allow the passage of water through it as a function of capillarity, when there is water on one side of the structure and air on the other, the volume of capillary pores in the concrete mix is proportional to the water/cement ratio.

A two-step process is used to

achieve a watertight concrete:

Step 1: Reduce the water cement ratio, increasing the density of the mix and minimising the size of the pores whilst producing a highly workable concrete to aid placement and compaction.

Step 2: Block the remaining capillary pores ensuring a complete watertight finish.