thai wife has been told no more tourist visas..what are my options now

[7by7]

Albevy,

Interestingly, in the last couple of days this has become an issue raised on the Jeremy Vine show.

The topic of controversy was that, an any EU passport holder, from any country in the EU can travel into the UK, with a spouse, even if the spouse is not from an EU country and they can then immediately start claiming benefits............

No, they can't. A myth.

Qualifying non EEA national family members of an EEA national enjoy the same freedom of movement rights within the EEA as their EEA national family member; providing they are travelling with or to join that EEA national family member.

As the UK is in the EEA this, of course, includes the qualifying family members of UK citizens.

These freedom of movement rights do not, however, extend to the country of which the EEA national is a citizen. So, for example, the Thai wife of a UK citizen needs a UK visa to enter the UK, the Thai wife of a French citizen needs a French visa to enter France, the Thai wife of a Polish citizen needs a Polish visa to enter Poland and so one; unless Surinder Singh applies.

But neither they nor their EEA national family member can start claiming benefits immediately they arrive. In the UK, for example, among other requirements they need to pass the habitual residency test.

None of which has anything to do with this topic!

[7by7]

Speak to your local MP.

Why?

On the basis of the information provided, there is nothing an MP can do.

Parliament set the rules, UKVI follow those rules.

The OP has been offered a free consultation by an experienced, competent and honest advisor convenient to him and his wife. Their best course of action, IMHO, is to accept that offer.

[paully]

it would be arguable that this ruling violates Article 14 of the European Convention on Human Rights.

That said, even though your marriage is recognised in the UK, I would register it there formally under Article 12 of the same convention. Note that these are your rights that are being violated.

In all honesty, I don't think that the 'violating human rights' argument will get the OP very far, except for the fact of 'being told' that there will be no more tourist visas, which would indicate a closed mind on the part of the authorities. Visitor visas in the UK, as elsewhere, are for short-term visitors not for regular extended stays that leave the suspicion that his wife is in effect living in the UK. She could still apply for a settlement visa if she wanted to so all options are not actually closed.

Registration of the marriage in the UK has absolutely no legal effect whatsoever. If it is a legal marriage in Thailand it is also a legal marriage in the UK. The right to marriage is not being questioned.

[Bench499d]

I don't get it. Before we were married, my wife applied for a multiple entry visitors visa which lasted for 10 years and meant she could stay for up to 6 months each time. Obviously no recourse to public funds etc. Surely this is the whole point of this visa. I can't see how it can be classed as settlement if you're spending half the year in a foreign country.

When was that?

They have tightened up the rules even more now.

Maybe they are paranoid that we older men are making sham marriages just to get a Thai lady into the UK and let them scrounge on handouts?

Look online and do one of the free knowledge of the UK tests - I did and would have failed!

My knowledge of King Charles and that ilk was not good enough f.f.s.!

It was about 5 years ago.

And I failed the life in the UK test too!

Edited December 5, 2014 by Bench499d

[laislica]

Albevy,

Interestingly, in the last couple of days this has become an issue raised on the Jeremy Vine show.

The topic of controversy was that, an any EU passport holder, from any country in the EU can travel into the UK, with a spouse, even if the spouse is not from an EU country and they can then immediately start claiming benefits............

No, they can't. A myth.

Qualifying non EEA national family members of an EEA national enjoy the same freedom of movement rights within the EEA as their EEA national family member; providing they are travelling with or to join that EEA national family member.

As the UK is in the EEA this, of course, includes the qualifying family members of UK citizens.

These freedom of movement rights do not, however, extend to the country of which the EEA national is a citizen. So, for example, the Thai wife of a UK citizen needs a UK visa to enter the UK, the Thai wife of a French citizen needs a French visa to enter France, the Thai wife of a Polish citizen needs a Polish visa to enter Poland and so one; unless Surinder Singh applies.

But neither they nor their EEA national family member can start claiming benefits immediately they arrive. In the UK, for example, among other requirements they need to pass the habitual residency test.

None of which has anything to do with this topic!

So if a Brit lives and is resident in Spain, marries a Thai wife, gets her an EEA visa, takes her to Spain and completes the necessary steps to get her a foreigners ID card which super cedes her initial visa, does she then have a right to travel with her husband to the UK for a short visit?

[Jaggg88]

thankyou for your help and response, we didnt really want to settle in the UK , but looks like the only possible route now to carry on as we have been..

My friend is retired and lives with his Thai wife in Chang Mai. They are both keen golfers. They travel to many tournaments around the world and he has a 10 year UK visit visa for his wife just for this purpose. They return to the UK every year and can stay for up to 6 months at a time. They sometimes stay all summer. 7by7's advice is always accurate and knowledgeable but he didn't explain the main reason for a general visit visa is leisure (tourist etc) and you are obviously not visiting for leisure.

https://www.gov.uk/general-visit-visa/overview

[laislica]

thankyou for your help and response, we didnt really want to settle in the UK , but looks like the only possible route now to carry on as we have been..

My friend is retired and lives with his Thai wife in Chang Mai. They are both keen golfers. They travel to many tournaments around the world and he has a 10 year UK visit visa for his wife just for this purpose. They return to the UK every year and can stay for up to 6 months at a time. They sometimes stay all summer. 7by7's advice is always accurate and knowledgeable but he didn't explain the main reason for a general visit visa is leisure (tourist etc) and you are obviously not visiting for leisure.

https://www.gov.uk/general-visit-visa/overview

In my case, I applied for a six month general visitor visa because we do not intend to settle or even stay for a long time in the UK.

The application was refused "on the balance of probiotics that" she was not sufficiently attached to Spain, would overstay, would need handouts!

There is no appeal or way to provide additional info, despite there being phone numbers, email addresses for ourselves and the folk who invited us to stay with them!

Now my wife has the Spanish ID for more than a year, does that make any difference?

Can we just turn up at a port by car and drive over together?

Is a visa now necessary if we are together?

My wife has NHS cover in Spain as provided by the UK overseas pensions office, based on the English translation of our marriage lines.

Cheers

[laislica]

Probabilities LOL

[Jay Sata]

If the OP get another visa for his wife it still does not gaurentee entry to the UK.

Immigration officers have the right to refuse entry despite someone holding a valid visa.

That applies in most countries in the world.

[wooloomooloo]

They now say no more tourist visas for her,so what are my options now ?

Unless I'm missing something, who said the above? Did your wife apply for a further tourist visa and was refused? This hasn't been clarified.

[laislica]

They now say no more tourist visas for her,so what are my options now ?

Unless I'm missing something, who said the above? Did your wife apply for a further tourist visa and was refused? This hasn't been clarified.

sorry that was me, I think that the OP has his answer, he should apply for a settlement visa.

I was picking up on Ronaldo who applied for a visit visa 3 years ago and was refused, then again a month ago and refused.

He is Legally married 4 years, pots of money - what to do.

My wife now has a Spanish NIE ID Card which is good till 2018 and has had it 1 year, 2 in June.

Could her Spanish ID allow her to visit the UK with me without the need for a visa?

We would stay two or three weeks max, just to allow her to meet my family and friends.

I am almost 73 and my wife is 52. I have property in Spain, she property in Thailand.

Sorry, if this is hiJacking the thread, just ignore this question if it is.

Cheers

[7by7]

<snip>

So if a Brit lives and is resident in Spain, marries a Thai wife, gets her an EEA visa, takes her to Spain and completes the necessary steps to get her a foreigners ID card which super cedes her initial visa, does she then have a right to travel with her husband to the UK for a short visit?

To be honest; I'm not sure.

Surinder Singh would certainly apply if you and your wife have been living in Spain and now wish to return to the UK to live; but I'm not sure about visits.

The ECG on this says that the British national needs to have been a worker or self employed; although a recent ECJ case has said that anyone exercising a treaty right qualifies. Whether the UK have yet to implement this ruling, or have done so but not updated their guidance; I don't know.

Even if Surinder Singh does apply to your wife, I'd advise obtaining the necessary entry clearance in advance rather than just turning up at the UK border.

As EEA applications are free, why not apply and see what happens?

[laislica]

<snip>

So if a Brit lives and is resident in Spain, marries a Thai wife, gets her an EEA visa, takes her to Spain and completes the necessary steps to get her a foreigners ID card which super cedes her initial visa, does she then have a right to travel with her husband to the UK for a short visit?

To be honest; I'm not sure.

Surinder Singh would certainly apply if you and your wife have been living in Spain and now wish to return to the UK to live; but I'm not sure about visits.

The ECG on this says that the British national needs to have been a worker or self employed; although a recent ECJ case has said that anyone exercising a treaty right qualifies. Whether the UK have yet to implement this ruling, or have done so but not updated their guidance; I don't know.

Even if Surinder Singh does apply to your wife, I'd advise obtaining the necessary entry clearance in advance rather than just turning up at the UK border.

As EEA applications are free, why not apply and see what happens?

thanks 7x7.

When we applied I only saw two visas, a family member and a general visitor, we went for the general visitor and failed.

With every application she is required to travel 600Km to the Brit Emb in Madrid and give biometric data, it cannot be reused!

Cost €114 plus 1,200Km round trip and an overnight stay.

Hardly free I'm sorry to say.

The irritating thing is that our local Spanish FO also takes bio data but the Brits don't use that as a source!

Her fingerprint and photo are already in the Spanish computer system.

Why can't they accept that, we're in the EU after all.

Ronaldo has been refused twice in three years!

The officer only has to refuse and you are stuffed.

No appeal, no way to submit more info!

Quite unfair in. my opinion.

Having already completed all the necessary (and not free) steps for her to be recognised as a resident of the EU, why should she need a visa, other than her passport and Spanish ID, and of course me?

If only there was a way to talk to someone at border control.........

[7by7]

Your wife applied for a visa under the UK immigration rules; they are not free.

Try applying for an EEA family permit under the EEA regulations; which is free.

Although, as said, I am not sure if this can be used for visits; the information in that link is about residence.

[Donutz]

Laislica, 7by7 my guess would be that SS would apply even if you would only return to the UK for a short visit. But I wouldn't be 100% either even though common sense says to me it should work (if permanent return works -SS route- then surely holiday trips?!). Try the free EU/EEA application, if it fails, consult an immigration lawyer (who has experience with the SS route for Brits to the UK).

At the OP: you'd think 6 (or slighly less) months UK, and the remaining majority in TH would be perfectly fine, guess not. I hope the UK has no silly residence permit rules like some other EU countries. In NL (part of Schengen) an immigrant on a limited (5 year) residence card can not stay longer away from NL longer then 4 months if you travel abroad every succesive year. So no 6 months NL, 6 months TH allowed on a residence permit. Unless you finally obtain permanent residency, then a strict 6 months out of NL each succesive year rule applies. And Schengen visas are only good for 90 days per 180 day window. Though cookie if you want to spent about 6 (5-7 depending on say the weather) months in two places. Such profiles are poorly (not) covered at all. I hope the route 7by7 does, assuming the UK as slighly less silly rules who cater to people who are not really short term visitors but neither permant visitors (immigrants).

[Richard W]

Laislica, 7by7 my guess would be that SS would apply even if you would only return to the UK for a short visit. But I wouldn't be 100% either even though common sense says to me it should work (if permanent return works -SS route- then surely holiday trips?!). Try the free EU/EEA application, if it fails, consult an immigration lawyer (who has experience with the SS route for Brits to the UK).

The UK government recently decided to give lawyers work challenging its probably false interpretation of the Surinder Singh judgement. The relevant part of the EEA Regulations is Regulation 9. The two awkward conditions are:

(2)(a) P [= Laislica] is residing in an EEA State as a worker or self-employed person or was so residing before returning to the United Kingdom

and

(2)(c ) the centre of Ps life has transferred to the EEA State where P resided as a worker or self-employed person.

Can Laislica argue that the centre of his life is Spain and not Thailand?

The quickest hope for Laislica would seem to be a victory for the McCarthys (Sean and Helena) over the acceptance of Spanish residence cards. I don't know why the UK government hasn't lost this case yet. However, between then and the amendment of Regulation 2's definition of a "qualifying EEA State residence card", he would still have to travel by land to the accessible part of the exported UK border. Even then, the Immigration Officer might demand evidence that he satisfies the requirements of Regulation 9.

If Laislica clearly satisfies the requirement of Regulation 9, then his wife should be able to get a family permit. Note that the McCarthys' justification for legal action is the hassle and expense of getting even that.

[laislica]

Laislica, 7by7 my guess would be that SS would apply even if you would only return to the UK for a short visit. But I wouldn't be 100% either even though common sense says to me it should work (if permanent return works -SS route- then surely holiday trips?!). Try the free EU/EEA application, if it fails, consult an immigration lawyer (who has experience with the SS route for Brits to the UK).

The UK government recently decided to give lawyers work challenging its probably false interpretation of the Surinder Singh judgement. The relevant part of the EEA Regulations is Regulation 9. The two awkward conditions are:

(2)(a) P [= Laislica] is residing in an EEA State as a worker or self-employed person or was so residing before returning to the United Kingdom

and

(2)(c ) the centre of Ps life has transferred to the EEA State where P resided as a worker or self-employed person.

Can Laislica argue that the centre of his life is Spain and not Thailand?

The quickest hope for Laislica would seem to be a victory for the McCarthys (Sean and Helena) over the acceptance of Spanish residence cards. I don't know why the UK government hasn't lost this case yet. However, between then and the amendment of Regulation 2's definition of a "qualifying EEA State residence card", he would still have to travel by land to the accessible part of the exported UK border. Even then, the Immigration Officer might demand evidence that he satisfies the requirements of Regulation 9.

If Laislica clearly satisfies the requirement of Regulation 9, then his wife should be able to get a family permit. Note that the McCarthys' justification for legal action is the hassle and expense of getting even that.

Thank you so much for all this detailed info.

We actually spend a minimum of 181 days in Spain (usually longer) because that is the requirement to maintain her residency.

I have lived full time in Spain since I registered for an NIE number which I needed in order that I could purchase a property in 2004.

I transferred my health resources to Spain in 2005 and have a Spanish NHS card.

I also have an EHIC card which I would need if I was visiting the UK and needed health assistance.

(I did in fact use it once on a holiday visit a few years ago)

The UK Tax office has been aware of my address in Spain for many years, as has the Overseas Pension office.

I sold my only UK property in 2005.

I have had a Spanish car from new for 9 years.

I have had a Spanish bank account for more than ten years and my wife is now a joint account holder.

I hope that they would see that we are very tied to Spain!

If we were to go to the UK, I would drive and take either a ferry or the Chunnel.

We want to visit friends in France so if we turned up at the French port, would the ferry company allow us to travel?

Would we get into the UK at border control?

The risk is the cost of the crossing and that may be OK when compared with the costs of getting to Madrid etc.

What do you advise please?

[Jay Sata]

On face value it appears you are a Spanish resident.

[Richard W]

If we were to go to the UK, I would drive and take either a ferry or the Chunnel.

We want to visit friends in France so if we turned up at the French port, would the ferry company allow us to travel?

Would we get into the UK at border control?

The risk is the cost of the crossing and that may be OK when compared with the costs of getting to Madrid etc.

What do you advise please?

Your main problem appears to be Regulation 9(2)(a), which is more restrictive than is allowed by EU law. You seem to have retired to Spain, and my understanding is that that is not enough under the UK's EEA regulations.

I have no confidence in my advice, but can only say what I would be inclined to do. Your argument to immigration should be that you are residing in Spain under your EU treaty rights, that the Spaniards accept your wife as your wife and that she lives with you in Spain, and you are therefore exercising your treaty rights to take your wife with you on a visit to Britain. I fear it is quite likely that your wife will be wrongly refused because you have not been working in Spain. Go to the ferry port or Chunnel and take with you:

Your passports, your Spanish permanent residence card (ideally indicating residence under EU laws), your wife's Spanish 'temporary' residence card (nominally not directly relevant, but helps locate the centre of your life), your marriage certificate (to prove relationship), including Spanish translation if the certificate is in neither English nor Spanish (needed for certificate, and helps with argument that the centre of your life is in Spain), bank statements showing pension payments (centre of life) and both your names on them (subsisting relationship) and your address (centre of life), and documents showing continued ownership or control of the car (centre of life). Avoid the phrase 'centre of life' - one of the reasons given for refusing a family permit is that the applicant knew the relevant law too well! On the other hand, it is not unreasonable to know that Spanish residence cards are not accepted by the UK, so you have taken evidence of your marriage with you to make good the deficiency.

Also take food and drink - you may have a long wait at UK immigration in France.

Formally, a family permit is not required - see for example the general article at https://eumovement.wordpress.com/2010/08/04/no-visa-but-still-want-to-travel/ (updated this year despite the URI) and the answer to Question 3A in the referenced answer to an FOI query.

The argument against applying for a family permit is that you are more likely to be turned down for not having worked in Spain. I may well be told that this is a bad argument.