Israelis In Chiang Mai

[Guest endure]

Here`s one more data point: among Europeans, the "highly educated" were far more likely to respond as sympathizing with the Palestinians, compared to their non-Sorbonne-impaired neighbors. France, in particular, showed a dramatic difference among these two demographics, with only 30 per cent of French with "low" education supporting the Palestinians, versus 51 per cent of those with "high" education.

The above simply doesn't make sense and is just American Francophobia. It starts by comparing 'highy educated Europeans' to their non Sorbonne educated neighbours and then goes goes on to compare one part of the French population with another. The Sorbonne is a French university. Most 'highly educated Europeans' weren't educated there so mention of it is irrelevant and, I suspect, simply there to remind the US of those good old cheese eating surrender monkeys. It never ceases to amaze me that many intelligent Americans continue to talk about Europe as though it's a single entity when in fact it's made up of 25 sovereign nations. It makes as much sense as talking about the geographical land mass known as the Americas as though it were all one country with one opinion about everything.

[PeaceBlondie]

While I'm writing this, please try to guess what percent of Israelis are Gentiles (non-Jews). Remember, too, that many or most Jews don't practice Judaism, and some Blacks, Asians, etc., do. Now, I'm the naive one who had to look up the answer (what percent of Israelis are not Jews?). Last week I believe the Hezbollah was accused of shelling Nazareth or Bethelem, towns Jesus lived in, where the majority of the residents are.....Muslim Israelis.

20% of Israelis aren't Jews. Now, compared to my naiveté, what do Thai guesthouse owners know about ethnic, secular Jews; Sammy Davis, Jr.; Ashkenazes and Sepharidics; etc.? Nothing. They barely know more than 25 nationalities. At least consciously or intentionally, they're not discriminating against Jews. If the guest has an Iranian passport, they might not know whether the person is an Arab (highly unlikely). Some Iranians are Zoroastrian, Baha'i, or Christian.

Yes, it's wrong, but it's not a conscious discrimination against JEWS as such, just a nationality. In other countries, it very well could be, but not in Thailand.

Sure enough, one of my kids is a hippie and an alcoholic and an unpublished author. Oh, and that Israeli I met at the train station in BKK? He sold me, at a good price, erectile dysfunciton pills that worked just fine. I like Israeli tourists, so far.

[meadish_sweetball]

Well, in the end we can only speak for ourselves. I am Western European and have very close Jewish friends, some of which also happen to be Israelis. I am strongly opposed to some of their government's actions and do not support some of their own views but regardless of this, I count them among my very best friends and I feel privileged to have had the opportunity to meet them.

And I have nothing but contempt for people who are real anti-semites. I think you will find people who think like me are much more common among Europeans, than those who have nazi-like sympathies.

[Charma]

Thanks for the clarification Thaiquila. I do think that are very real political differences between Europeans and US citizens and these seem to be most evident during the current "war on terror". I do not perceive myself that this translates into a higher proportion of anti-semetic views in Europe, but I think there will be huge differences from country to country. Of course, the US has its fair share of anti jewish organisations.

In relation to Peaceblondie's post:

Yes, it's wrong, but it's not a conscious discrimination against JEWS as such, just a nationality. In other countries, it very well could be, but not in Thailand.

Is it the intention that makes discrimination right or wrong, or is it the effect? If you were a person affected by such a sign, would you particularly care about the specific reason behind it?

Also, in relation to it being OK in Thailand, I accept that when visiting or living in a host country, there is more of an obligation to accept local culture that may be different to your own. But if that meant accepting situations that go against everything you believed and doing so without complaint or comment, you may as well close down half the posts in this forum. If Thailand desires to play a full part in the modern world, it will at some point have to address issues of discrimination within it's borders.

[Thaiquila]

It seems to me we are talking about two separate issues.

The guesthouse owners and why they post the signs, and the apparant tolerance of some farangs to these bans.

I don't think we really know the real story for the real motivations behind either of them. Before, I was poo pooed for suggesting that some of the owners might be Thai Muslims. How do you know that isn't the case? Thai Muslims are allied with Malaysia, an entire state that bans all Israelis from even entering Malaysia, and also a clearly anti-Jewish state. I know for a fact there is a good sized Thai Muslim community in Chiang Mai.

Regarding Israel, again it is a Jewish state, it is a Zionist state, and I still suspect that for at least some people, the tolerance for banning Israelis has something to do with the Jewish factor.

BTW, I have never met a travelling Israeli who was not Jewish, not that they don't exist, but they are clearly a small minority.

Notice the Israeli flag bears the Jewish star of David:

Edited August 12, 2006 by Thaiquila

[mallmagician]

Thaiquila!! Man, you need to take a step back and look at the issue objectively. No-one is supporting racism here. This would be banned by the moderators!! We are merely discussing why some GH Owners may put these signs up.

The FACT that so many people have explained that they have met so many Israelis with undesirable behaviour PROVES that there is a reason and a basis for these signs.

NOT ONE post has been about the fact these people are Jewish. Only Yours.

And finally, you accuse people of "guessing" the reasons why these signs appear. I have read at least 2 posts on this discussion from people who have spoken to GH owners or ARE GH owners and found out the reason they put the signs there.

Open your eyes. WE DO NOT SUPPORT RACISM.

We simply can understand the appearance of these signs. I applaud anyone who wants to stamp out racism, but you are pointing the finger in the wrong direction.

Right, I'm off now to watch my favouorite actor Mel Gibson in a movie.

Phil

[mallmagician]

From Dictionary.com

Understand

4. To know and be tolerant or sympathetic toward: I can understand your point of view even though I disagree with it.

Capiche?

Phil

[Thaiquila]

So, you don't support racism but you do support discrimination based on Israeli NATIONALITY?

Oh, that sounds very reasonable!

So all Israelis are all the same and deserve to be painted with the same brush?

Brilliant!

[mallmagician]

Thaiquila:-

(1) I do not understand plain English

(2) I do understand, but I am having fun calling nice people racist biggots.

Pick one!

Read my posts. I do not support it, I understand it. See my post from Dictionary.com! I can see why conclusions would be reached, and can also understand why they put the signs up.

Reade my posts. I have met many nice Israeli people. I take people at face value, I do not ask them first what nationality they are.

Read my posts. I am friends with Jews, have worked with Jews, laughed with Jews, Cried with Jews, Worked FOR Jews. I AM NOT RACIST! Or Nationalist (Ajarn? Is this a word?)

Can I start a post entitled "Biggotry and Racism towards Westerners who understand why GH owners feel they need to ban certain groups"? Hmm, something tells me you may be mentioned.

Get off your soapbox. Understand (Though you may not have to agree), that some of us understand the reasons why these signs go up. Not based on Nationality, or Religion. Just Observation and Experiences.

Phil

[Thaiquila]

Great.

In any case, I think we all should BOYCOTT any such business practising this kind of discrimination. Now it is the Israelis, maybe the next ban will be a ban of YOU.

And for the record, I do not believe for one second that if owners observed the alleged offending behaviors from guests coming from any other Western country other than JEWISH ISRAEL, that they would have had the cajones to put up such a ban sign, e.g.: Canada, France, Italy, Germany, etc.

And how can you say the ban is not based on NATIONALITY, when the NATIONALITY of ISRAEL is scapegoated as the cause of all their business problems? As if there aren't scoundrels coming from ALL nations.

I said it once and I'll say it again: Boycott the Bigotted Guesthouses. They can ban (too bad that is legal), we can BOYCOTT.

Edited August 12, 2006 by Thaiquila

[mallmagician]

Thaiquila,

Do you want to address my points? Or do you want this discussion to degrade to petty posts?

If the next signs that appeared were because of the fact that I am an English guy, and that a massive number of English Yobs were tearing GH's apart, or being rude, load, tight, or whatever, then I would "understand" why they had appeared. I may not agree with them, but I would understand.

What would happen? English people would be reduced to other GH's, and would ask themselves why they get treated this way. Those that mis-behave would probably, on some level at least, realise that their behaviour is not appropriate, and they may adapt to suit the needs of their environment.

A lot of English people are yobs. Sit out on Khao San Road any night of the week, and wait till 2-3 in the morning. I feel ashamed. Hence why I do not live in BKK. If GH on Khao San banned English, I would understand why.

Thats all we are saying. Don't try and mark us all Anti-Semetic Biggoted Racists. We understand (But may not agree) why these signs have appeared. Simple as.

Phil

[Thaiquila]

I think your post is basically BS for one reason,

YES! Many English people are horrible yobs,

But, NO, no matter how bad these Yobs (and I would submit on sum they are a much bigger threat to law and order than Israelis) you will NEVER see a NO BRITS sign at a Thai guesthouse?

WHY again are the JEWISH ISRAELIS unfairly singled out for this treatment?

So, again, NO, I do not UNDERSTAND the signs. Why only the Israelis when there are other nationalities with greater numbers of OFFENSIVE individuals?

Edited August 12, 2006 by Thaiquila

[mallmagician]

Ok, I concede your point that it is based on Nationality. Yes it is, absolutely. And the reason the GH owners have chosen to do this is the experiences they have had. They do not hate Israelies for any reason other than their experiences with them in their business. Why turn down money? They feel they have to, in order to maintain a good business.

Maybe we should look at why these signs go up? Why do the GH owners feel motivated to do this? And don't give me Anti-Semetic bullpoo, you and I both know that that is not the reason.

It is a sad fact that the behaviour of many Israelies has led to these signs, thus hurting the reputation of the nice or polite Israelies out there travelling.

Please understand, I for one (as I do not assume to speak for TV forumers) do not tolerate this as such, I merely understand the reasons.

If I had a guest house, I would initially take one and all. If any nation, race, gender, religion caused more problems than profit, I would ban it too!

Phil

[mallmagician]

In MY EXPERIENCE I have met hundreds, possibly thousands of English people in Thailand. 99% of which have been really nice. The 1% of 2 week holiday piss head yobs tend to congregate on KS Road. I wouldn't be surprised if signs did start appearing in problem arrears banning the English.

Again, In MY EXPERIENCE I have met maybe 2-3 hundred Israelies in Thailand. Maybe 60% have been really nice. The other 40% have either been rude, arrogant etc.

Thats the point. Too many Israelies have ruined it for the rest of the nice travellers. Their reputation preceeds them.

Its not right that the nice travellers get excluded, but is it right that the GH owners have to put up with the 40% of bad ones?? Come on. You must understand at least by now.

I ask that you concede that you understand, but that you do not agree with the approach.

Phil

[mallmagician]

Also, just noticed, again you say JEWISH ISRAELIES. Why? You yourself admit that not ALL Israelies are Jewish. These signs do not mention JEWISH Israelies, merely Israelies.

Pardon me if I am out of line, but you seem to have a Major chip on your shoulder about prejudice towards Jews? No-one has mentioned the Jews in these posts in a negative light.

Phil

PS - I am not Prejudice. I hate everyone equally.

[Johpa]

We haven't heard from any Israelis yet in this thread (at least I don't think so), but I've had conversations with several Israelis who indicated they were aware of the negative perceptions about the behaviour of Israeli travellers in Thailand. Everyone that has broached the sujbect with me has also said they believed the negative stereotype had some basis in fact, i.e, they agreed that the general behaviour of many Israelis visiting Thailand was more aggressive and more overly parsimonious than that of most other nationalities. A couple of Israeli friends have also told me they intentionally avoid travelling with other Israelis because they don't want to be associated with such behaviours.

I lived in Israel for many years and indeed there is a sizeable number of young Israelis, especially those from the larger cities, who are, as a whole, intolerably abrasive in personality. I might have actually stayed in Israel if it were not for these Israelis.

"No Israeli" signs in the guesthouses and other budget tourist establishments have been around Thailand as long as I can remember and predate the more current times where there are some Thais who can make the connection between Israel and Jews. The signs are up there methinks because it just is not worth the aggravation for the little profit involved to the business owner. Who needs foreigners to bargain aggressively and without tact, even by Asian standards, for a few baat? It has nothing to do with racism, just some small business owners playing the odds, based upon historical observations, and wishing to avoid an upset stomach. I only wish the customers at my store I would rather not interact with were so easily defined so that I could hang out a sign telling them not to shop here.

There are still plenty of great young Israelis out there, often from the Kibbutzim, who are totally embarrased by the behavior of their fellow nationals. As noted, they tend to avoid the guesthouses listed in the Hebrew equivalent to the Lonely Planet guide. They make for great travel companions.

[Charma]

Thaiquila!! Man, you need to take a step back and look at the issue objectively. No-one is supporting racism here. This would be banned by the moderators!! We are merely discussing why some GH Owners may put these signs up.

The FACT that so many people have explained that they have met so many Israelis with undesirable behaviour PROVES that there is a reason and a basis for these signs.

NOT ONE post has been about the fact these people are Jewish. Only Yours.

And finally, you accuse people of "guessing" the reasons why these signs appear. I have read at least 2 posts on this discussion from people who have spoken to GH owners or ARE GH owners and found out the reason they put the signs there.

Open your eyes. WE DO NOT SUPPORT RACISM.

We simply can understand the appearance of these signs. I applaud anyone who wants to stamp out racism, but you are pointing the finger in the wrong direction.

Right, I'm off now to watch my favouorite actor Mel Gibson in a movie.

Phil

You used in an earlier post, your definition of understand:

To know and be tolerant or sympathetic toward: I can understand your point of view even though I disagree with it

...to put forward your view that you do not support racism.

Yet in your own definition, it appears that you are therefore sympathetic towards the ban on Israelis. Being sympathetic surely is giving tacit support to such discrimination. If you really want to "applaud people who want to stamp out racism", you could start by posting some firmer views on whether you do or do not think putting up such a sign is appropriate. I would contend that saying you "understand" it is as good as condoning it. For example:

Man 1: "I hear that Joe Bloggs beats his wife"

Man 2: "Yes, but knowing the background and the reasons , I can understand why"

So do you think Man 2 condones the beating of Joe Bloggs' wife?

If you want to help stamp out racism (or discrimination based on nationality if you prefer), then you will have to get off the fence. If you think it is wrong, say it loud and clear.

[Thaiquila]

Also, just noticed, again you say JEWISH ISRAELIES. Why? You yourself admit that not ALL Israelies are Jewish. These signs do not mention JEWISH Israelies, merely Israelies.

Pardon me if I am out of line, but you seem to have a Major chip on your shoulder about prejudice towards Jews? No-one has mentioned the Jews in these posts in a negative light.

Phil

PS - I am not Prejudice. I hate everyone equally.

Give me a break!

Almost ALL of the travelling Israelis you meet are JEWISH. Israel is a Jewish state, the only one in the world, the only one in history.

Nobody has said anything bad about Jews? Balderdash. This thread is littered with slander about Israeli Jews.

Israelis are Jews. Deal with it, anyone who supports and "understands" banning Israelis.

If you want to ignore thousands of years of history that show clearly Jews have indeed been

scapegoated and much worse, be my GUEST, though not as some here would say, if you are ISRAELI.

Again, these signs are highly offensive and totally unnecessary. All an owner has to do is enforce the SAME RULES for all nationalities.

Edited August 12, 2006 by Thaiquila

[Ulysses G.]

From my experiences I found that the vast majority of Israeli's were loud & obnoxious.

You keep banging on about being anti jewish & this is simply not true, I think you are useing it to stir up our collective guilty conciences about the Holocaust.

My aquired dislike of Israeli's has nothing to do with religion & does not make me a murdering Nazi !

Thaiquila has good reason for his suspicions.

All the traits that people are now attributing to "Israelis" as reasons to hate them are the exact same ones that have been used to justify hatred of Jews for many centuries. Many, many Jews and Israelis don't have those traits, but the more the stereotype is repeated the easier it becomes to pretend otherwise.

Ever since I left my own country, I've heard over and over again how terrible Germans, Americans, Brits and Israelis are, but experience with all these nationalities has proven this to be mostly a bunch of BS spread by a bunch of spiteful, nasty little creeps. Most people are good.

If you want to hate, hate, but don't try to justify your sickness.

Edited August 13, 2006 by Ulysses G.

[SamSipEt]

Most people are good.

If you want to hate, hate, but don't try to justify your sickness.

Agree whole heartedly

[Maejo Man]

Pardon me if I am out of line, but you seem to have a Major chip on your shoulder about prejudice towards Jews? No-one has mentioned the Jews in these posts in a negative light.

Balderdash. This thread is littered with slander about Israeli Jews.

You seem to be taking this thread far too personally Thaiquila, and it was you who intoroduced jews into the equation. Thailand is full of signs pointed towards various nationalities and religions, and it's the Thai way of avoiding confrontations. Up till some time ago there was a sign on the door of a well known bar in Chiangmai, that stated "No Thais No Japanese" Conversely you will still see signs on most of the doors to establishments in Soi Tania clearly stating "No Westerners" or "Japanese Only"

Signs are a way of life in Thailand especially on points of entry.....No Photos, No Guns, No Smoking etc. Then you have the non jewish descriminatory signs such as "No Children Allowed" They just don't want kids, where be they jewish, muslim or christian. This might be a point of law, or the fact that children in that particular establishment are considered a nuisance.

The best sign of all is the one that states..."The Management Reserves the Right to........."

[cmsally]

These signs have been around for ages, but many years ago saw one in Thai that said:

"No commission for Israelis" !!!

I don't think you will find it is a prejudice against Israelis as a whole but from Thais I've talked to in various businesses, I think its the backpacker market attracts a certain type of Israeli and they travel in very large groups. One guesthouse owner told me that if he took Israelis they would bring all their friends and he would find it difficult to attract other nationalities.

Also from some of the stories I've heard the behaviour of this section of Israelis leaves a lot to be desired. Even the guy doing laundry just down from my friends house won't take Israeli laundry!

I don't have anything to do with Israeli tourists here, but even I have at least 10 "Israeli stories", told to me by Thais or other tourists.

I also have many Israeli friends; super nice people but then they probably wouldn't be hanging around in the guesthouses. So I think we are talking about a section and age group of the Israeli population whose reputation seems to be fairly legendary.

[lannarebirth]

The signs are up there methinks because it just is not worth the aggravation for the little profit involved to the business owner. Who needs foreigners to bargain aggressively and without tact, even by Asian standards, for a few baat? It has nothing to do with racism,

Perhaps it does have to do with racism. Maybe it is the racism of the Israeli that enables the Israeli to treat their hosts with such little regard. I couldn't sau with any authority, as don't think I've ever met an Israeli, save for Israeli sailors, who are the same as sailors everywhere.

[Thaiquila]

The signs are up there methinks because it just is not worth the aggravation for the little profit involved to the business owner. Who needs foreigners to bargain aggressively and without tact, even by Asian standards, for a few baat? It has nothing to do with racism,

Perhaps it does have to do with racism. Maybe it is the racism of the Israeli that enables the Israeli to treat their hosts with such little regard. I couldn't sau with any authority, as don't think I've ever met an Israeli, save for Israeli sailors, who are the same as sailors everywhere.

Oh, that is rich.

And from such an authority, too!

[Loaded]

Lets get this clear again. Israelis are mostly Jewish people. Israel is a Jewish state. Jewishness is more than about religion. Most Israelis and most world Jews are NOT religious, but they are still Jewish. If you wish to ban Israelis, you wish to ban Jews.

It's a mainly Jewish country because in 1948 with the support of the USA it round up the majority of the arab population at gun point and dumped them like pieces of junk in the deserts of Gaza and the West Bank. No UN mandate, but luckily God had said it was OK...according to them.

[Maejo Man]

My last word on signs........

And the sign said, "Everybody welcome. Come in, kneel down and pray"

But when they passed around the plate at the end of it all,

I didn't have a penny to pay

So I got me a pen and a paper and I made up my own little sign

I said, "Thank you, Lord, for thinkin' 'bout me.

I'm alive and doin' fine."

Wooo!

Sign, sign, everywhere a sign

Blockin' out the scenery, breakin' my mind

Do this, don't do that, can't you read the sign?

. : 5 Man Electrical Band - Signs : .

[Thaiquila]

Lets get this clear again. Israelis are mostly Jewish people. Israel is a Jewish state. Jewishness is more than about religion. Most Israelis and most world Jews are NOT religious, but they are still Jewish. If you wish to ban Israelis, you wish to ban Jews.

It's a mainly Jewish country because in 1948 with the support of the USA it round up the majority of the arab population at gun point and dumped them like pieces of junk in the deserts of Gaza and the West Bank. No UN mandate, but luckily God had said it was OK...according to them.

(Might as well blame Hitler. If there was no Hitler, there would be no Israel.)

Interesting, simplistic telling of history, but thank you for expressing your anti-Israel sentiment. I actually think Israel was a mistake, but in our current day, it is a reality, and I don't see the justification of discrimating against Jewish Israeli backpackers. I continue to believe alot of this tolerance for the No Israeli signs is old fashioned stereotyping and anti-semitism.

Edited August 13, 2006 by Thaiquila

[Thaiquila]

The signs are up there methinks because it just is not worth the aggravation for the little profit involved to the business owner. Who needs foreigners to bargain aggressively and without tact, even by Asian standards, for a few baat? It has nothing to do with racism,

Perhaps it does have to do with racism. Maybe it is the racism of the Israeli that enables the Israeli to treat their hosts with such little regard. I couldn't sau with any authority, as don't think I've ever met an Israeli, save for Israeli sailors, who are the same as sailors everywhere.

According to this authority on the subject:

Mr. Tzviely feels it is really only a minority of Israeli backpackers who are bad apples.

So, is it fair to ban an entire nationality based on a minority of bad ones?

Why not ban the other nationalities too?

Why just the Israelis?????

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dw...n1.d863df3.html

[Gonzo the Face]

The signs are up there methinks because it just is not worth the aggravation for the little profit involved to the business owner. Who needs foreigners to bargain aggressively and without tact, even by Asian standards, for a few baat? It has nothing to do with racism,

Perhaps it does have to do with racism. Maybe it is the racism of the Israeli that enables the Israeli to treat their hosts with such little regard. I couldn't sau with any authority, as don't think I've ever met an Israeli, save for Israeli sailors, who are the same as sailors everywhere.

Oh, that is rich.

And from such an authority, too!

Oh I seem to feel that the pot likes to call the kettle black, but when it comes back , thats not to be???

Seems to be that you like to dish out the discrimination , racism words, but don't let someone call your people discriminatory or racist. That is how your last post appears Thaiquila...

What ever happened to the original question and answer that a businessman can run his business any legal way he desires. If he/she makes a bad business decision by barring anyone from his establishment, then he will loose business. ... and if he looses too much , he goes out of business. I would say that makes him stupid, but not a racist.

Thaiquila, most Thais would be hard pressed to tell you that Israel was a country, let alone find it on a map. [most would also be hard pressed to point out Bangkok on a map. geography is not one of their strong points] They go into business like anyone else , trying to make a success not to create a failure. As a business person, they want anyone's money. So there has to be a reason to turn anyone away.

They in their own business brain have determined that the customers they have come to call "Israeli's" are not profitable. They must have determined that this group of people, cause more harm and/or difficulty than its worth. If not why do they want to chase money away???

Then as you have been deadfastly been determined to bring the Jewishness and the Jewish Nation/state into the equation, you tell us..... WHY would they want to designate "NO ISRAELI's"are these Thai business people just opening their business' to go broke???

Why do they that do put up signs independently put up signs only directed toward the Israeli ?? With a minimal amount possibly of Muslim, which by the way I have never seen and only accept the fact due to someone posting same.

Answer that WHY ???

[Rasseru]

I continue to believe alot of this tolerance for the No Israeli signs is old fashioned stereotyping and anti-semitism.

I wonder why you continue to believe that, in the face of all the evidence to the contrary that has been presented here. Seems to me like an entrenched bias at work.