Dog Re-training Advice Needed

[kurgen]

About a year ago my girlfriend thought it would be a good idea to excercise our bulldog by getting him to chase her round the village while she was riding a mountain bike.

She only did this a few times until I pointed out it could cause problems for other people riding bikes past him.

TOO LATE !

Even though he's only playing he does scare people.

He may only be 12 inches high but at 30 kilos he packs a punch.Once he starts running towards something, or someone, he finds it very difficult to change direction.

Any advice on how to get him to stop chasing cyclists will be gratefully recieved

By the way, he's only outside the gate while I'm with him, he just can't resist a cyclist.

[sbk]

Water pistol in the face. A loud shout of No from you as he does it. Dogs can change their behaviors it just takes more effort.

[CalicoConsulting]

Hi Kurgen,

I haven't owned a dog in ages, and I never cured the bicycle-chaser I owned. But your question reminded me of something I read in the Bangkok Post recently. So with some creative googling, I have something that might help.

NO LONGER A PUPPY, NOT YET A DOG is an article by Fred A. Alimusa. Apparently people write to him with dog questions. Maybe you could ask him about your specific problem. But here's the bit that was in the back of my memory. The leash trick may apply to your bulldog, or it may be totally useless. I dunno. Here it is:

'You can teach Isko that you prohibit food-grabbing by putting him on a six-foot (1.8m) leash before mealtime. Put their bowls at least that distance apart and position yourself opposite Jack's bowl. As soon as you notice Isko heading for Jack's bowl, give him a stern "NO!" while giving the loose leash a quick jerk to make it uncomfortable for the dog. Notice that I emphasize "loose": It is important that there be some slack so that Isko is not aware of the leash until you jerk on it. You cannot effectively "pop" a tight lead. Precisely timed, your correction (physical and verbal) should be loud and clear; Isko's thought bubble: "Ooops! Mum doesn't want me sequestering Jack's food."

'Once he goes back to gobble up his own rations, praise him lavishly and put a few more kibbles in his bowl. This reward is as important as the correction. It will instil in his mind that eating from his own bowl is more rewarding than going after Jack's. More importantly, he learns what behaviour you prohibit and what behaviour you expect from him (his minding his own food gets rewarded).

'Once you've noticed that Isko is starting to understand your rule, the next step of the conditioning programme is to take the end of the leash from your hand, put it down on the floor and then plant a foot firmly on it. As soon as you see Isko even think about going for Jack's food, give him a stern "NO!". This should stop him from continuing. If it doesn't, the leash will correct him. Now he realises that you can still control him even if you're not holding his leash. Again, praise and reward with more kibbles.

'Make sure you continue this programme until he believes that you have total control over his errant behaviour during mealtimes, and that it's more rewarding for him to focus on eating from his own bowl. Once you've noticed that his "sequestering behaviour" has ceased, you can stop putting him on a leash during mealtimes. But you'll still need to supervise that period. '

Now, let's address his inappropriate peeing behaviour. Notice how I termed that? For this is actually natural canine behaviour. Dogs, especially adult males, pee on upright objects to establish ownership of their territory. Although natural for canines, for us humans this is inappropriate.

The reason Isko is now marking his territory, but didn't before, is because he's now going through puberty, a stage in which he's not a puppy but not yet a dog. His hormones are triggering this behaviour. To correct this you need to show him where you allow him to pee, and where you don't. This may be more challenging because you've already permitted him to pee indoors. This may also confuse him because he thinks he's being allowed to mark his territory when, actually, he's just been left, unsupervised, to do pretty much what he wants to do. However, this innate behaviour can still be nipped in the bud or, to be more specific, snipped in the gonads.

Okay, now that I read that, I'm thinking you oughta just ask Fred Alimusa this question. Oh well.

Good luck!

Michael

My own bicycle chaser. 70 pounds of muscle.

[kurgen]

It's rare that we get cyclists on my village so I'd look like a Songkran freak walking around with a water pistol.

I can't remember the last time I put Buster on a leash, maybe I should but I've raised him as a free range dog.

Oh well....

[bina]

had same problem with large boxer; he also couldnt change directions fast...

the leash trick mentioned above; and we just never let him off leash where there were cars for maybe a year..... when we finally did start to turn him off leash, and we saw a car aproaching, we'd call him back, put him on leash and offer him his prize (a pinecone to play with !!!his obsession)... however, we are on kibbutz and dont have tons of cars and motorbikes whizzing by so maybe easier said then done for u...

the once or twice we didnt manage to get him on leash, he made moves to chase but the pinecone managed to distract him back to our direction again...

he used to jump into any pickup truck, even on the move, or any car that opened a door.... so i trained him to come and jump only into MY old subaru pickup, and i'd take him for a ride.

running after bycycles is the same, do the same training but u can use a person on a bike with large squirt gun (the turbo type) with water/vinegar or water/hot peppers...

some dogs learn to i..d the water gun and wont go after a bike with someone sporting a watergun but will go after anything else...

when he's diverted from running after the bike/car whatever, offer him, IMMEDIATELY, his prize (a toy, cookie, a tummy rub, whatever turns him on the most)

good luck

bina

[Nienke]

Hi,

Why do people always emphasize the punishment method? Changing undesired behavior into desired behavior through punishment isn't easier not faster than the reward-based methods and often not successful. It is very often abusive to the dog, and the learning processes are not taken into account.

I do understand though, because our whole society and the way we are raised are punishment-based; DON'T do this, DON'T do that, follow the rules and regulations OR ... you will get a reprimand, spank, fine, jail or even death sentence ... So, automatically we think in these terms with our animals too. But do all these threats really work so well? Do we drive slowlier, does it stop the criminal from robbing the bank after he had had the chance to enjoy his first victory, does it stop the child from smoking?

Sure we need guidelines, but there are also other ways than punishment and threat to teach guidelines.

During my study on dog (problem) behavior and training techniques and the several years of training dogs I came to the realization that applying punishment isn't as easy as many of us think it is. For having the message coming across:

A. the punishment must come through the very first time you give it to your dog, or the dog will not receive it as a punishment, but maybe as you 'join' in the fun

b. the punishment should not be too rough or the dog will get scared of you, resulting in loss of trust. Also learning processes get blocked in scared dogs.

c. the dog needs to understand for what it is punished. It may associate the shock or the pain with something completely different than you think. For instance, when you punish you dog while a child is walking by. The dog may associate the child with the shock or pain, resulting in problem behavior towards children.

d. the timing of the punishment should be exact or the dog is not capable to make the association between his 'bad' behavior and the punishment

e. dogs are such exellent body language readers, they can see the slightest muscle movement, change in facial or body experession, pupil enlargement, etc., that they almost immediately know that something is wrong, but not WHAT is wrong. They also spot veru quickly where the punishment comes from and when it comes. Unless the punishment comes really out-of-the-blue.

If the same punishment is applied for the same undesired behavior three times or more, you can be sure the message did not come across!

Many dogs, despite the punishment-based training, still jump up, pull the lead, chase, don't come when called, lurch at other dogs, etc.

Effectively changing the dog's chasing behavior (in this thread mentioned case) with a waterpistpol is pretty difficult if not impossible, because you can't time your punishment properly and you definitely can't do it unseen to the dog.

What the dog does 'see' is an owner chasing after him while he is having his fun-chase after the bike. Well ... if THAT isn't the ultimate fun to the dog .... in other words, the chase behavior of the dog wil increase in stead of decrease.

What also can happen is that, each time a bike is approaching, the dog is faced with a crossed owner. How do you think the dog will perceive the bikes after a while? .... as the cause of his owner's anger towards him ----> his behavior will intensify and may even go over into aggressive behavior.

The latter can also apply to the modification of the chase behavior by means of a choke chain or electrical collar. Each time the bike comes in sight, the dog will be confronted with pain. In order for not being confronted with that painful punishment, the bike needs to go BEFORE the punishment is applied, in the dog's mind. ----> behavior intensifies and may even go over into aggressive behavior .

Choking the dog, when chasing, isn't risk-free either. The choke chain can severely damage the tissues in the dog's throat (something I have come across already several times), or worse, breaks his neck.

It is much better to evaluate the dog-owner relationship: does the dog really sees the owner as higher in rank? (a dog that sees his owner as lower in rank, can still love him or her to pieces, by the way. Thus it has nothing to do with the love a dog feels for his owner)

Then, pick up obedience training together with a behavior modification program and start from step one, using a good-fitting leather or nylon collar (NOT a choke chain) and in a positive, dog-friendly, non-confrontational way.

For details you can contact me through my website (see profile), if you like.

Nienke

[CalicoConsulting]

I've never been one to punish my pets either. Or to train them, for that matter, beyond simple housebreaking and not stealing my food. The only "trick" I've ever taught my dogs to come when I whistle. From there, I figure we can communicate as needed.

The problem when MY monster dog chased a bicycle is that my cousin and I both fell on the ground laughing. Dixie was just playing. One of her favorite games was to run up behind me and slam a shoulder behind either knee, knocking me down hard. Once a strange boxer came into the yard, and she chased him, not barking. She slammed a shoulder into him, waited for him to get up, and ran at him again. Etc. I think she was disappointed when he left and never came back. But to get back to the bicycle story, I had to quit laughing so I could whistle.

Meanwhile that poor woman will never know the dog who charged at her, not barking, only wanted to play.

And this isn't helping Buster a bit, is it? Ninke's right about how punishment's just stress for everybody, and bina had success with the leash method. Okay, that helps! Our goal here is to communicate to Buster that his Alphas don't want him chasing cars. Dogs tend to do what you tell them, as long as they understand what the heck you're on about.

My first dog, described in the newspaper as "Doberman mix." Terrifying, ain't he?

[ozymandious]

My 2 cents for execelent dog training tips try to watch UBC's Channel 64 (Adventure 1) for a program called "The Dog Whisperer"

Cheezey title I know, but it's a good show and the Dog Trainer really works some magic with "problem Dogs"

I've picked up some good tips from watching it.

It's usually on around 20:00

a quick search reviels these show times (scroll to the bottom)

http://www.ubctv.com/search/eng/Search.aspx?Keyword=Dog

[sbk]

Well, I believe that once the owner allows bad behavior (or in this case what is perceived to be aggressive) then it is most definitely the owners fault. Dogs need rules. And the humans are the ones who should be defining those rules, not the dog.

But, as we are in a country where a loose aggressive dog (or even one perceived to be aggressive) is usually poisoned, teaching your dog as quickly as possible acceptable behavior is paramount. And if that requires punishment in order to save the dogs life then so be it.

But, as has been pointed out, there is no point in punishing the dog after the fact, believe I mentioned that a loud shouted 'No" as he does it can help.

[CalicoConsulting]

Oz,

I read an excellent article about The Dog Whisperer last month in The New Yorker. Didn't know we could watch him here. Thanks for the tip!

Dixie the monster dog's first meal at my house. Like she needed it...

[bina]

nienke,

did u see me chase after my boxer w/water gun???

i only use positive reinforcement and conditioned responses (pinecones in this case are the ultimate in distracter for calling back; using long lead always always so he stops self reinforcing the behavior pattern (chasing cars); learning that he's always on lead means that when he's off lead usually he goes as far as the lead and we recall and he gets the pinecone, so he never learns that he's really off lead at times; the water gun method works only with an other person on a bycicle and timeing well (someone who is used to dogs);

i would recall nero when i saw his muscles tense when he just heard, but didnt yet see, the car... so he already had his pinecone when the car went whizzing past, and he was busy.... it took a year of this to break the awful habit (i received him at 1.5 ys old with this habit from finland owners)...

my dogs, like my goats, dont get negative reinforcements except for being ignored or things that make them slightly uncomfortable making them prefer the 'proper' behavior (a sitting dog cant jump; a dog with a ball in its mouth cant bark, etc)

never used a choke on both boxers but only regular collars (ont he bitch we tried the halter but not good for soft pallet dogs);

like most training of any method, patience and understanding of dog behavior is needed and also, creativity... what works for one dog might not work for an other in same situation (shy dog, shy owner, sensitive dog, clown type dog, young/old)

actually this is all in past tense (nero died in april) but worked wonders... he also used to run after any soccer ball, it cost us tons of money buying replacements, so worked on that too, using postive reinforcement and never allowing him to go after any soccer ball that wasnt designated as his (dogs know what belongs to them and what is off limits)

[Nienke]

nienke,

did u see me chase after my boxer w/water gun???

Hi all,

I (again) apologize for my mail.

It wasn't meant to be personal but general. I'm sorry when (one of) you received it as personal criticism.

On the other hand .... just visualize Buster chasing a frightened cyclist with the feet pulled up sky-high, with Buster having his ultimate fun and Kurgen, red-faced and tongue out of the mouth desperately aiming at Buster Sorry, maybe I've got just a little bit too much imagination

Then ... my reaction is also beacuse I hear so often people talking about positive training, but what I see is dogs corrected for unwanted behavior and rewarded for wanted behavior. This is also what the 'dog wisperer', Cesar Millan, does, instead of understanding what the actual learning process is and what actually triggers the (problem) behavior of the dog.

Many in the positive re-inforcement world (the top-behaviorists) aren't in favor of Mr. Millan's tactics. As they say, sometimes his methods are abusing to the dog.

The method that Bina is mentioning, distracting the dog from the intention to chase and replacing this behavior with some other desired behavior is a very dog-friendly method.

Nienke

[bina]

[sbk]

Well, I must have communicated very poorly. I suggested the water gun but not that the OP chase after the dog trying to shoot in his face. I guess I should have been clearer that the bicycle rider should have the water gun.

My neighbors dog used to chase me as I drove by on the motorbike. Distraction and positive reinforcement are nice ideas but when it comes to the potential for an accident and its either me or the dog, I vote for me. I taught the neighbor's dog to stop chasing me quite easily. As soon as he thought the game was afoot, I would stop the motorbike and shout "no" very loudly at him. After a few times, he realized not only wouldn't I play his game but I wouldn't be dominated by him either.

I find the whole idea of postive reinforcement to be interesting since, at least with my adult dogs, I see very little of that happening amongst themselves. We have a new adult dog, small and aggressive, that is trying to find her place in the pack (5 dogs). Two of the dogs don't seem to pay much attention to her aggressive behavior and they are the ones who get it the most. The other dog (the dominant female) knocked her aggressive behavior on the head from day one by taking her down and showing her who was dominant. She never has any aggressive behavior from the new dog.

So, I just wonder, in a situation where the dogs are making the rules amongst themselves (ie a pack determing their hierarchy), how does postive reinforcement and distraction from bad behavior come into play? Or is it only coming from the mother to the pups?

[bina]

sbk'

if a dog has been properly socialized by mother, then when he gets a 'new pack' (us, usually), we automatically are meant to be 'higher up' and this has ntohing to do with shaping behavior, just that we have the option since we are higher up, to shape the behavior...

with a dominant dog, first our own dominance has to be estabileshed, usually not by violent ways but subtle ways (not letting him body block u in the hallway, eating last, etc)... once that is established, it is easier to shape behaviors.... cause all this works also on other animals from chickens to dolphins.... and u cant dominate a dolphin physically..

its all about mind games sort of ....

lots of good info on the net...

im really good at reading 'intent to do something' (intent to perform a behavior that is not or is acceptable) in most of my 'larger mammals' (donkeys, goats dogs people), its harder with birds and such although my co worker is good at that too...