Bangkok's new bus fleet saga: why Scania, Volvo opt out

[mikiea]

I don't know buses...but who would be the likely winner and from what country?

China?

I'm guessing, as I really have no clue, but would be interested.

with the new trade agreements china will etch their way into the fiber that is thailand. soon they will control most major industrial imports to los thru under the table deals. next year a flood of cherry death trap autos will arrive. thailand will become the new dumping site for china. gotta keep da chinese peeps working. :-)

[copa8]

China actually has a very good bus fac tory with also factories in Thailand.

However the majority shareholders are Indian. Bus brand is called Golden Dragon.

http://www.goldendragonbus.com

Although I am not a real China-fan. Some products are of good quality.

See post #22 for very good Golden Dragon buses.. actually look at any one of the 2-3 year old yellow buses and come back and say quality!

I wouldn't buy a Golden Dragon toothpick yet alone a bus.

Buying cheap heavy machinery ALWAYS ends in tears.

and that's saying something, since he doesn't even have real teeth anymore.

[xbusman]

Well, I dont want to be negative netty but..... Having worked in commercial busses since the 80s I really do not think that Scania or Volvo busses would be the best vehicle for the Thai operating environment. Dont get me wrong, they are excellent busses. When properly serviced and maintained they can live almost indefinitely. Note the properly serviced and maintained bit. I would want to do some serious study of the Thai operations and maintenance capabilities before making a recommendation. It may well be that cheap, crude technology, Chinese busses were the best bet. Just from historical experience, if II were head of the procurement I might ask Mercedes to develop a plan to put a manufacturing operation in Thailand and jointly make these and all future busses in country. Mercedes can make a cheap, indestructible bus along with the best of em. I certainly would not immediately assume that a technologically sophisticated bus like Volvo would operate well in this environment with or without corruption.

Fundamentally, having manufactured many thousands of busses over my career, I have always thought that Thailand should make their own bus and be the supplier for the other SE asian economies. They could easily support 500 busses yearly given the population density and car ownership rates, thats more than enough to bring those jobs here instead of supporting other countries.

[tonbridgebrit]

Well, I dont want to be negative netty but..... Having worked in commercial busses since the 80s I really do not think that Scania or Volvo busses would be the best vehicle for the Thai operating environment. Dont get me wrong, they are excellent busses. When properly serviced and maintained they can live almost indefinitely. Note the properly serviced and maintained bit. I would want to do some serious study of the Thai operations and maintenance capabilities before making a recommendation. It may well be that cheap, crude technology, Chinese busses were the best bet. Just from historical experience, if II were head of the procurement I might ask Mercedes to develop a plan to put a manufacturing operation in Thailand and jointly make these and all future busses in country. Mercedes can make a cheap, indestructible bus along with the best of em. I certainly would not immediately assume that a technologically sophisticated bus like Volvo would operate well in this environment with or without corruption.

Fundamentally, having manufactured many thousands of busses over my career, I have always thought that Thailand should make their own bus and be the supplier for the other SE asian economies. They could easily support 500 busses yearly given the population density and car ownership rates, thats more than enough to bring those jobs here instead of supporting other countries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beijing_Benz

They're already make Mercs in China. Maybe turning up in Thailand and setting up a factory can be done.

However, China might put pressure on them to build the busses in China, and then export them to Thailand. As in China might say "you must build the busses in China, and then export them to Thailand, if you don't, we might make things difficult for you in China, and remember, you already sell a lot of Mercs in China, don't forget that China is a very valuable market to you" !!!!!

(the market is sometimes rigged)

[anon022]

I don't know buses...but who would be the likely winner and from what country?

China?

I'm guessing, as I really have no clue, but would be interested.

I worked for a Chinese coach manufacturing company. I assure you, you wouldn't want to buy a Chinese coach/bus. Materials are cheap, crash testing is non-existent, technology is 20 years old, and anything slightly new is copied (patent infringed, should I say).

As for Thailand, a Chinese source is a likely winner, however, because cheap, user unfriendly, unsafe, and crap quality matters not here. What matters, and what mattered to Volvo and Scania, are the bent takings by the offerers of bids. The undertable corruption was something the Western companies had no interest in being involved in, especially when they realised the graft was ultimately reducing, or projecting to reduce, their end sales prices.

Volvo nor Scania need Thailand as an entity or major market to compete worldwide, and so it is another loss to Thailand which keeps it years behind all the other developing countries. I think I made myself perfectly clear?

[casualbiker]

Scania and Volvo make quality prooducts that last and that cost a little more

Thailand seems to prefer buying chinese crap at knock off prices

Whether by rail or by bus Thailand is going Chinese ... will soon enough turn into rusty garbage

really must be a slow news day inn Thailand as this was printed late last year

The same as UK going for high speed Chinese Trains?

Well, off-course !! When Thailand does this, it's called 'buying Chinese crap'. When Britain does it, it's called 'buying a cost-competitive product' !

This is mainly about a load of people venting out their resentment about seeing Chinese products all over the world. Yes, some of the stuff coming out of China is poor quality, but most of it is almost the same as stuff made outside of China.

Those who write about cheap Chinese crap should be forced to admit that half the stuff they have is made in China, or places like India or Bangladesh. Point out that other people are doing it, but don't mention that you're doing it yourself !!

(off-course, when I say 'YOU', I don't mean you robertson !!)

One thing to think about. In the UK the government tends to oversee the contracts with skilled engineers capable of spotting issues and bringing it to the attention of the powers that be.. here in Thailand you may well have skilled engineer BUT the organisation structure and face problem will always interfere!

Last time the UK government signed a train contract with the Canadian company Bombardier they insisted on them building a manufacturing and service factory in the UK.

[tonbridgebrit]

Scania and Volvo make quality prooducts that last and that cost a little more

Thailand seems to prefer buying chinese crap at knock off prices

Whether by rail or by bus Thailand is going Chinese ... will soon enough turn into rusty garbage

really must be a slow news day inn Thailand as this was printed late last year

The same as UK going for high speed Chinese Trains?

Well, off-course !! When Thailand does this, it's called 'buying Chinese crap'. When Britain does it, it's called 'buying a cost-competitive product' !

This is mainly about a load of people venting out their resentment about seeing Chinese products all over the world. Yes, some of the stuff coming out of China is poor quality, but most of it is almost the same as stuff made outside of China.

Those who write about cheap Chinese crap should be forced to admit that half the stuff they have is made in China, or places like India or Bangladesh. Point out that other people are doing it, but don't mention that you're doing it yourself !!

(off-course, when I say 'YOU', I don't mean you robertson !!)

One thing to think about. In the UK the government tends to oversee the contracts with skilled engineers capable of spotting issues and bringing it to the attention of the powers that be.. here in Thailand you may well have skilled engineer BUT the organisation structure and face problem will always interfere!

Last time the UK government signed a train contract with the Canadian company Bombardier they insisted on them building a manufacturing and service factory in the UK.

Well, I agree. Looking at imported goods that must be safe, but are actually dangerous, well, we need to check it out. Would I feel safer with the British government inspecting it, rather than a Thai group inspecting it ? Well, I admit I would !

[trogers]

I think you all have missed the point. Thais can only afford low bus fares, thus crap buses.

[casualbiker]

I think you all have missed the point. Thais can only afford low bus fares, thus crap buses.

When the government are buying the buses, low bus fares don't really come into it.

The problem is it's not just the initial price that's important but the whole life cycle price.

[trogers]

I think you all have missed the point. Thais can only afford low bus fares, thus crap buses.

When the government are buying the buses, low bus fares don't really come into it.

The problem is it's not just the initial price that's important but the whole life cycle price.

And you expect government officials to think beyond the time they are in a particular post?

[casualbiker]

I think you all have missed the point. Thais can only afford low bus fares, thus crap buses.

When the government are buying the buses, low bus fares don't really come into it.

The problem is it's not just the initial price that's important but the whole life cycle price.

And you expect government officials to think beyond the time they are in a particular post?

Well. It's happened before! But generally no. Not here in Thailand, it always tends to be the short term approach!

[German Viking]

Well, I dont want to be negative netty but..... Having worked in commercial busses since the 80s I really do not think that Scania or Volvo busses would be the best vehicle for the Thai operating environment. Dont get me wrong, they are excellent busses. When properly serviced and maintained they can live almost indefinitely. Note the properly serviced and maintained bit. I would want to do some serious study of the Thai operations and maintenance capabilities before making a recommendation. It may well be that cheap, crude technology, Chinese busses were the best bet. Just from historical experience, if II were head of the procurement I might ask Mercedes to develop a plan to put a manufacturing operation in Thailand and jointly make these and all future busses in country. Mercedes can make a cheap, indestructible bus along with the best of em. I certainly would not immediately assume that a technologically sophisticated bus like Volvo would operate well in this environment with or without corruption.

Fundamentally, having manufactured many thousands of busses over my career, I have always thought that Thailand should make their own bus and be the supplier for the other SE asian economies. They could easily support 500 busses yearly given the population density and car ownership rates, thats more than enough to bring those jobs here instead of supporting other countries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beijing_Benz

They're already make Mercs in China. Maybe turning up in Thailand and setting up a factory can be done.

However, China might put pressure on them to build the busses in China, and then export them to Thailand. As in China might say "you must build the busses in China, and then export them to Thailand, if you don't, we might make things difficult for you in China, and remember, you already sell a lot of Mercs in China, don't forget that China is a very valuable market to you" !!!!!

(the market is sometimes rigged)

The engines and the gearboxes of these china made Mercedes Busses are Made in Germany(Mannheim) the rest is made in china under supervision of germans, you can not compare these busses with these chinese crap, Thailand purchased.

[Fab5BKK]

I don't know buses...but who would be the likely winner and from what country?

China?

I'm guessing, as I really have no clue, but would be interested.

China goods is good and cheap.

Don't be ashamed by shopping at a discounter (like big c) rather than hiso shopping mall (like Paragon)

BigC is a supermarket chain, Paragon is a commercial center...

You can find Chinese products everywhere...

Therefore, the point you've tried to make is quite irelevant.

Just my 2 cents.

[German Viking]

I think you all have missed the point. Thais can only afford low bus fares, thus crap buses.

I think you missed the point, you cannot calculate, did you ever heard about "Life Cycle Costs".

What is cheap on these Chinese crap busses is only the purchase price.

Not long time ago BKK bought a lot of this Chinese crap buses, after 2 years over 50% where out of operation until now.

Use you brain Mate. 55555

[Fab5BKK]

I think you all have missed the point. Thais can only afford low bus fares, thus crap buses.

I think you missed the point, you cannot calculate, did you ever heard about "Life Cycle Costs".

What is cheap on these Chinese crap busses is only the purchase price.

Not long time ago BKK bought a lot of this Chinese crap buses, after 2 years over 50% where out of operation until now.

Use you brain Mate. 55555

+1

TCO (Total Cost of Ownership) comes to my mind ;-)

[Rancid]

The bigger the project the bigger the kickback. Politicians figure they'll have had their fill before the project falls apart.

Poor quality concrete roads crumbling are the most obvious.

In Asia politicians grab what they can while they can. In the civilised West the payout comes later from their wealthy puppet masters, grabbing up front I considered inappropriate.

How are Bill & Hillary getting on these days?

[MaxLee]

That means the poor are left with the crappy 100 plus year old unmaintained crap buses for the rest of their lives...

[Thian]

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Scania and Volvo make quality prooducts that last and that cost a little more

Thailand seems to prefer buying chinese crap at knock off prices

Whether by rail or by bus Thailand is going Chinese ... will soon enough turn into rusty garbage

really must be a slow news day inn Thailand as this was printed late last year

Not all from China is crap and a lot European products (maybe not Volvos and Scania) are just assembled from Chinese parts in Europe.

Well that might be the case but MOST of the produce from China is crap.

On the other hand EVERYTHING from Japan is high quality.

Guess what i'm buying......only...

[Johpa]

Maybe Scania and Volvo didn't want to pay the kickbacks.

European and American companies are happy to provide kickbacks, but laws require said kickbacks to be reasonable, rather subtle, and hidden from sight. The main issue here is that because the Svenske buses are more expensive, there is less wiggle room for invoice inflation and thus the Thai partners wish to pursue contracts that have more room to skim off the top and the equally corrupt Chinese are only too happy to oblige and, as an added bonus, keeping the payback money in Macau without asking questions.

[Thai at Heart]

Scania and Volvo make quality prooducts that last and that cost a little more

Thailand seems to prefer buying chinese crap at knock off prices

Whether by rail or by bus Thailand is going Chinese ... will soon enough turn into rusty garbage

really must be a slow news day inn Thailand as this was printed late last year

I do have a bit of a smirk on my face when I see people putting up posts about the "Chinese made crap".

And then there's talk about manufacturers in Europe not needing Thailand.

Okay, let's get real here. The goods from China are cheaper than goods from Europe and it might make sense to pay less for not so long lasting goods. A lot of the goods from China are almost the same quality as made in Europe or America. It certainly doesn't make sense to have flat screen televisions made in Europe, even if they are better quality. It's much more "price competitive" when made in China. Yes, "price competitive", that just means cheaper.

More and more manufactured goods are coming out of China. Cheaper transport will see increased amounts of Chinese made goods in Europe, and maybe America too. Okay, people have resentment that there is a flood of Chinese imports entering into Europe and America, and the big trade deficit is continuing. But it's silly to vent out your anger by constantly going on about cheap Chinese crap.

It might make more sense (if you feel this way) to try and educate people about the crap goods. Tell them "do not buy Chinese crap, buy European stuff, it lasts longer. it's cheaper in the long term, and it reduces our huge trade deficit with China".

As for manufacturers in Europe not really caring, well, I wonder. Well, European manufacturers are simply unable to compete with the cheaper Chinese goods. Manufacturing in Europe is in danger of being decimated because it can't compete when exporting to countries outside of the European Union, and the EU itself is being flooded by goods from China. European manufacturers might have a problem trying to sell goods in Europe itself. Actually, it's happening as we speak.

And it's best not to go on and on about present politicians being corrupt, demanding kick-backs. It's against the rules to make such negative comments. Accussing people of demanding kick-backs is a pretty serious accusation.

Your post makes a lot of sense. But realize a crap cheap tv can be replaced 2 or 3 times less than the cost of a decent European model. Sadly a cheap crap coach that folds up on impact isn't quite the same. You wont be offered the chance to rebook the journey.

I certainly can't argue against you ! We agree, a Chinese made television will not last more than four years. You can pay double money for one that's not made in China, and it will last eight years, maybe longer if you're lucky. But do people who make up the general public, do they actually want one to last eight years ?? Most people actually want to replace their television after a few years, because they want the latest model !

By the way, I know people who have got radios,clocks, etc, that were made in Britain (or some where in Europe), and they've lasted two decades or more. It's still being used.

But the issue of the crap coach folding on impact, that, off-course, is not funny. Needs to be considered. As a few other people have said, safety is not something that is very much part of some people's thinking.

Just about every television in the world comes from a factory in China.