Thai Step-daughter Visa Prospects

[7by7]

<snip>

My wife and I have discussed this some more, and she is suggesting that we apply for her daughter's visa NOW. I know that sounds a little odd, what with successfully obtaining my wife's visa only 2 weeks ago. However, surely that would remedy any possible doubt regarding sole responsibility.

I firmly believe that whenever possible, parent and child should apply at the same time; for two main reasons:-

1. It avoids a possibly lengthy separation of parent and child,
2. If the child has been living with the parent, it removes most of any, if not all, doubts about sole responsibility.

Although I do appreciate that circumstances may not make this possible.

As for your other questions, Deano, it seems to me that the situation you have described, i.e. basically his permission being sought for the child to move to the UK, could be viewed as him still having joint responsibility with the mother.

But the Tonies are far more qualified to advise on that point than I.

[bigyin]

I have read all this with great interest as I am in the process of finishing off a UK settlement visa application for my wife and step daughter. We have the Por Khor 14 dated October 2012 stating my wife has sole custody and my step daughter has lived with us as a family unit since October 2011. We have pictures of all 3 of us together showing my step daughter from age 7 up to her present 10. We have a name change certificate from her father's name to my wife's and we have applied for and received a passport for my step daughter. My wife was never married to the biological father and I have maintained all 3 of us since October 2011. Do you think I have enough to convince the ECO or is there still room for doubt?

[Deano1000]

<snip>

My wife and I have discussed this some more, and she is suggesting that we apply for her daughter's visa NOW. I know that sounds a little odd, what with successfully obtaining my wife's visa only 2 weeks ago. However, surely that would remedy any possible doubt regarding sole responsibility.

As for your other questions, Deano, it seems to me that the situation you have described, i.e. basically his permission being sought for the child to move to the UK, could be viewed as him still having joint responsibility with the mother.

7by7, his permission was not strictly sought. He initially refused to let his daughter come to the UK and did so by flexing his custody rights muscles. It was this coercive approach, which lead my wife to believe that she did not have a leg to stand on. Having researched some more (and with your help) it is apparent that this has no bearing in English law, as the Custody Order stands for zip. It is the Por Khor 14 which will have more weight, as my wife (with witnesses) will be able to chronologise events from birth to divorce and onwards.

[tonyk]

Deano

If the father writes a letter saying that he no longer has an interest in the child's upbringing the that will be fine. Making the application now is the best thing you could do.

Bigyin

Your case is different as under Thai law an unmarried mother automatically has sole custody of the child and does not need proof. She still must prove that she has been solely responsible for the child and from what you have said this is obviously so.

[Deano1000]

Deano

If the father writes a letter saying that he no longer has an interest in the child's upbringing the that will be fine. Making the application now is the best thing you could do.

tonyk, the father has agreed to do just that. He has asked that I draft something for him to write in Thai and endorse. What kind of depths do you think I should go in to? I don't want to jeopardise anything by saying the wrong thing.

[tonyk]

Deano keep it as brief and to the point as possible. Just saying he has no further interest in the child is enough.

[Deano1000]

Deano keep it as brief and to the point as possible. Just saying he has no further interest in the child is enough.

Thanks tonyk. I will keep it sweet and to the point, and will avoid any reference to him abdicating responsibility, because that would be fatal, as it would clearly imply he has some to abdicate.

So a Por Khor 14 + letter should be sufficient?

[7by7]

If you have any additional evidence that shows mother and child are living together then I'd include that as well.

I also think it'll be a good idea to explain in the covering letter why she did not apply at the same time as her mother and what has changed to make her apply now; without mentioning the father's initial refusal to allow it, of course.

[Deano1000]

If you have any additional evidence that shows mother and child are living together then I'd include that as well.

I also think it'll be a good idea to explain in the covering letter why she did not apply at the same time as her mother and what has changed to make her apply now; without mentioning the father's initial refusal to allow it, of course.

7by7, thanks for the advice. The problem we have is that, in our covering letters for my wife’s visa application, we stated that her daughter would live with her father until such time my wife had settled in the UK.

Again, this was only done on the basis of her ex-husband’s initial opposition and him threatening to flex his custody-rights muscles.

As you are aware, he has since changed his tune and neither him or his wife want his daughter living with them.

How shall I play this?

[7by7]

Did you say in that letter that the father was 'flexing his custody muscles' and not allowing the child to move to the UK with her mother?

Or did you simply say that she would live with her father while her mother settled in the UK and then apply to join her?

If the latter, then simply say that the father has changed his mind and now refuses to have the child live with him.

If the former, then I'm not sure.

But one of the Tonies will be better able to advise.

[Deano1000]

Did you say in that letter that the father was 'flexing his custody muscles' and not allowing the child to move to the UK with her mother?

Or did you simply say that she would live with her father while her mother settled in the UK and then apply to join her?

If the latter, then simply say that the father has changed his mind and now refuses to have the child live with him.

If the former, then I'm not sure.

But one of the Tonies will be better able to advise.

7b7, we simply said that she would live with her father while her mother settled in the UK and then apply to join her, so hopefully we will be able to expand on that and say that he has changed his mind, maybe adding that it was not really his intention anyway in that his ego may have just been reacting?

[Deano1000]

Guys, may I kindly have your opinion on the following letter for my step-daughter's father to sign?

START>

I write in support of my daughter’s visa application so that she can join her mother to live permanently in the UK with her mother’s husband. I understand her mother has already been granted a visa to enter the UK.

Although I was granted joint custody of my daughter following the divorce from her mother in 2011, I have not exercised any responsibility for my daughter since then and have been totally uninvolved in her upbringing.

I have lived in [iNSERT] Province, which is [X MILES] from my daughter’s and her mother’s home address, since the divorce, and my daughter’s mother has exercised sole control and direction over her upbringing and made all the important decisions in her life.

I am re-married and my wife and I do not have any children. We do not want my daughter to live with us.

I believe that it is in the best interests of my daughter to remain with her mother and live permanently in the UK with her and her mother’s husband, so that they can enjoy a happy family life.

END>

What does anyone think?

[7by7]

My opinion:

Lose the last paragraph; it could appear that he is actively making a decision on his daughter's future.

Personally, I wouldn't include a letter from the father at all.

I think that your wife should write a letter stating that the father has had no role in the child's upbringing, or even taken an interest in the child, since the divorce and when asked reluctantly agreed to look after the child until such time as she could join her mother in the UK; but that he has now changed his mind and flatly refuses to do so.

Hence the application from the daughter now.

If you do include a letter from the father, the ECO may want to speak to him to verify the contents. If it is written in English, they will expect to speak to him in English and will doubt the veracity of the letter if he is unable to do so. Best to have him write it in Thai, in which case they will be happy to speak to him in Thai, and include a certified English translation.

But, again, I'd like to see Tony M's or tonyk's opinion.

[Deano1000]

My opinion:

Lose the last paragraph; it could appear that he is actively making a decision on his daughter's future.

Personally, I wouldn't include a letter from the father at all.

I think that your wife should write a letter stating that the father has had no role in the child's upbringing, or even taken an interest in the child, since the divorce and when asked reluctantly agreed to look after the child until such time as she could join her mother in the UK; but that he has now changed his mind and flatly refuses to do so.

Hence the application from the daughter now.

If you do include a letter from the father, the ECO may want to speak to him to verify the contents. If it is written in English, they will expect to speak to him in English and will doubt the veracity of the letter if he is unable to do so. Best to have him write it in Thai, in which case they will be happy to speak to him in Thai, and include a certified English translation.

But, again, I'd like to see Tony M's or tonyk's opinion.

7by7, my wife intends to write a covering letter. As for the father, he will write and sign the above in Thai, and the above will be also written in English as the translation. I just think that, what with admitting in my wife's application that her daughter would live with her father, it would be good for the ECO to read this from the father directly that he does not any involvement.

[Tony M]

My opinion:

Lose the last paragraph; it could appear that he is actively making a decision on his daughter's future.

Personally, I wouldn't include a letter from the father at all.

I think that your wife should write a letter stating that the father has had no role in the child's upbringing, or even taken an interest in the child, since the divorce and when asked reluctantly agreed to look after the child until such time as she could join her mother in the UK; but that he has now changed his mind and flatly refuses to do so.

Hence the application from the daughter now.

If you do include a letter from the father, the ECO may want to speak to him to verify the contents. If it is written in English, they will expect to speak to him in English and will doubt the veracity of the letter if he is unable to do so. Best to have him write it in Thai, in which case they will be happy to speak to him in Thai, and include a certified English translation.

But, again, I'd like to see Tony M's or tonyk's opinion.

7by7, my wife intends to write a covering letter. As for the father, he will write and sign the above in Thai, and the above will be also written in English as the translation. I just think that, what with admitting in my wife's application that her daughter would live with her father, it would be good for the ECO to read this from the father directly that he does not any involvement.

There are seemingly two schools of thought on this. One says that a letter from the father might help. The other says that it might detract. Personally, I don't like the idea of any input from the father. I think it would be wrong to advise you one way or the other, as there are differing views, and you must decide which view is best for your application. You now know my thoughts. All I can say is that, if it was me, I wouldn't bring the father into the application at all if I could help it. Tonyk has a different view, which is equally valid for consideration.

[tonyk]

The letter not only helps the application it also assists the Embassy as they have a duty to try to control the problem of parental child abduction which is a great concern in Thailand.

[Deano1000]

The letter not only helps the application it also assists the Embassy as they have a duty to try to control the problem of parental child abduction which is a great concern in Thailand.

tonyk, so do you think the below is good enough?

START>

I write in support of my daughter’s visa application so that she can join her mother to live permanently in the UK with her mother’s husband. I understand her mother has already been granted a visa to enter the UK.

Although I was granted joint custody of my daughter following the divorce from her mother in 2011, I have not exercised any responsibility for my daughter since then and have been totally uninvolved in her upbringing.

I have lived in [X] Province, which is 200 miles from my daughter’s and her mother’s home address, since the divorce, and my daughter’s mother has exercised sole control and direction over her upbringing and made all the important decisions in her life.

I am re-married and my wife and I do not have any children. We do not want my daughter to live with us.

END>

[bobrussell]

My view is that any letter suggests the father is involved and therefore might be detrimental. Clearly an ECO may think differently but some other cases that have been discussed on here have suggested any excuse may be good enough for rejection.

"The father has played no part in the upbringing of the child but once he became aware of the power he had as a result of the joint custody, he refused permission for the child to leave. The mother assumed she had no option but for the child to stay with the father as was indicated in the previous visa application. As soon as it became evident that the father was actually going to have to look after the child, he changed his mind and has removed his objection."

Possibly add that it might be possible to get the father to write a letter to confirm this permission. As long as this is true then I would think this might be a better approach!

All information should be factual to prevent any accusation of attempted deception but there is nothing wrong with careful phrasing!

As with all more complicated applications, if in doubt pay for professional, qualified advice. Advice on this forum tends to be very good but there is a lot at stake!

[bigyin]

My view is that any letter suggests the father is involved and therefore might be detrimental. Clearly an ECO may think differently but some other cases that have been discussed on here have suggested any excuse may be good enough for rejection.

"The father has played no part in the upbringing of the child but once he became aware of the power he had as a result of the joint custody, he refused permission for the child to leave. The mother assumed she had no option but for the child to stay with the father as was indicated in the previous visa application. As soon as it became evident that the father was actually going to have to look after the child, he changed his mind and has removed his objection."

Possibly add that it might be possible to get the father to write a letter to confirm this permission. As long as this is true then I would think this might be a better approach!

All information should be factual to prevent any accusation of attempted deception but there is nothing wrong with careful phrasing!

As with all more complicated applications, if in doubt pay for professional, qualified advice. Advice on this forum tends to be very good but there is a lot at stake!

The problem here is that professional advice is exactly what Tony M and Tony K provide and they are not entirely in accord so in the end I think the person concerned must make a decision on what feels right to them.

[bobrussell]

They are giving advice but not specific to the letter. A one to one conversation in a not so public forum can allow wording options to be discussed. Any comments made by the very good advisors on here has to be of a more general nature because it is an open forum.

I am sure there are private and more personal aspects to every application than is appropriate to discuss in public.

There are pros and cons to both approaches and ultimately is the applicants decision. I am not undervaluing the very good advice given by the professionals on the site, nor am I holding myself up to be a particular expert beyond my many happy interactions with the UKBA and seeing a number of refusals discussed here over the years.

Edited February 13, 2015 by bobrussell

[Deano1000]

Guys, if anyone is prepared to discuss wording with me via private message, I would greatly appreciate it.

I am in a dilemma because I understand both points of view. However, I am leaning towards my wife obtaining a Por Khor 14 and getting the father to write something along the lines of what I have posted.

To think an ECO would refuse my step-daughter's application after living with and being raised by her mother since the divorce (and throughout the farcical marriage come to think about it) simply beggars belief?

[bobrussell]

A compromise might be to write something in line with my previous post, saying you have managed to get the father to write the enclosed letter!

The sad thing is that applicants feel they need to second guess what the ECO is likely to accept rather than what the ECO should accept!

Of course the best thing for the child is to be with the parent that has raised him or her, not to find reasons why the child should be refused permission to be with that parent.

Best of luck!

[Deano1000]

bobrussell, so you mean get my wife to write what you suggested in your previous post and then include the letter I drafted, written and signed by the father in Thai and then translated into English?

[bobrussell]

Please do not take my suggestions as being a qualified expert! Perhaps PM one of TV Express or a Tony for professional advice.

I have had a few run ins with the UKBA (all successfully resolved thankfully) including a visa for my step-daughter.

I will try to PM you but as I see it you have to cover the sole-responsibility issue and any involvement of the other parent needs to be explained fully.

[Deano1000]

Thanks bobrussell. I am confident we can deal with sole responsibility, because that's exactly what my wife has had.

[ulike]

Does this help?

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/677349-returning-to-the-uk-with-family/page-1