Greece has nothing to lose by heading for the exit

[robblok]

Difficult for me to answer here as whatever I say will be considered as biased.

We got our independence in 1828, after 400 years of occupation and slavery to the Turks.

We haven't got many natural resources and the Greek terrain mostly consists of bare rocky land, difficult for agriculture.

Manufacturing is nearly non existent.

Shipping was famous all over the world but the Greek ship owners decided to register their fleet with foreign flags so to avoid paying any taxes .

The only assets we had were tourism and our famous Greek Filoksenia.

Introducing Greece to the Euro has rocketed the tourist prices for the past 10-15 years.

So any advantage we had to other tourist orientated countries has disappeared.

I do agree that our introduction to the EU was not 100% genuine, but for us was a big step forward and a way getting out of poverty and misery we suffered for all those years.

Now the situation is that we are back to where we started and even worst.

Unemployment is high, people started starving, pensioners have seen their pensions cut in half, due to the austerity measures introduced by our EU partners.

I'm not saying that what they imposed on us is wrong, after all the loans have to be paid back.

But for how long are we expected to suffer?

For how many generations are we supposed to suffer?

People is known through history to revolt against poverty and suffering.

Why Greek people has to endure this?

Ask yourselves if you were in the same situation what you would have done.

Yes, I would accept the answer, you put yourselves in the shit you come out now if you can.

But it seems there is a change for us to come out.

Contrary to my believes, Russia and China are offering a helping hand.

I would take it as I can't see any other solution to our suffering.

Suffer as long as you have paid it back. Why would other countries like mine pay the bill for your mistakes ?.

Its you guys that spend the money and lived the good life now its time to pay up.

This could bring the euro down for sure, I am already loosing money because of the Greeks. To be honest I really hope they punish the Greeks for this and keep them suffering even longer.

The loans were made in good faith to help the Greeks.. now they turn around and bite the hand that feeds them. Stealing from other countries. If they default there should never be an loan made to Greece and trade barriers should be erected completely destroying Greece. Sorry for being vindictive but I have freeloaders and people who run up debts and then escape them. By letting the Greeks of easy you encourage others to do the same.

[robblok]

Greece must do the best thing for the Greek people and that is to go bankrupt on their loans.

With a clean slate they can rebuild their economy.

If you are a bank and lent them money tough luck.

There is no guarantee on loans and banks should not loan to people that cant afford to pay back the money.

The banks wont loose as the interest payments have probably covered the loans already.

Unfortunately for Greece, the "Grexit" would be the worst, what could happen to the Greeks and the best to the citizens of those countries, which bailed them out before (that does not necessarily mean, their politicians, lobbyists and banks see it like this...)

Without a new injection of Euro in February, the Greek government will not even be able to pay the salaries of those employed in the governmental sector.

Printing Drachmes sounds good at first - but, honestly: would the Greek themselves trust this money, which is not worth the paper, it is printed on - as the country is definitely bankrupt? So the split between the Haves (with foreign currency) and the Nohaves (with Drachmes) would increase increase further, Hyperinflation not unlikely.

As a consequence, relending on the international financial market would become nearly impossible. The "Grexit", combined with the experience -money lent to Greece is most likely lost- will lead to exorbitant interest rates, even if someone would really be prepared to lend them money. With what they want to pay it back? Their "effective" administration?, olive oil?, tourism? - where since years their competitors like Italia, Croatia, Turkey, Spain have built up better hotels, better marinas, better infrastructure?

The whole case reminds me of someone in a bed of an intensive care unit requiring continuous injections requesting "if you don't give me treatment for free, I'll cut everything off and try it myself with what I have left in my kitchen".

The BRIC options:

Well, I would question, if Russia -struggling to defend its own Ruble- would spent its foreign reserves on continuously financing a a country to its fullest extent for the coming 20-30 years, where the -no matter which- governments since decennials continuously fail in improving the situation.

China might be a theoretical option, but I would question, if the Greek would really like the conditions, which the Chinese as superb businessmen and politicians would impose on them. It will be like cast out devils by Beelzebub.

Thank god that an exit will cost them dearly, I am sure they would have been gone a long time ago had it been easier for them. I too don't see Russia or China helping the Greeks with cheap money. It will cost them and they will jump from the fire into the frying pan.

The Greeks are screwed by their own corruption and their own actions. Clean your own house up instead of blaming others.

[Mudcrab]

They should all do and scrap this funny money ! I went to Malta a few years back and could you name 1 person that was happy with the MP changing to the EURO? No way not 1 person was happier or better off. This is just 1 country for an example ( for the normal everyday person that trys to make a living ) And its the same in the rest of them, the Euro currency has screwed EU, oh wait its for bussiness, well what happened before that then???????

Congratulations Lee on your first (I do believe) four or possibly five sentence post.

Either way it's a personal best...well done.

Still makes as much sense as your usual one liners though.

[Mudcrab]

its not the euro that has screwed greece but the Schengen_Area's visa policy. it has effectively isolated greece from its neighbours. if it wants to dump something dump that. but its far too late now.

Schengen Area (EU) in blue

Schengen Area (non-EU) light blue

Working to implement later yellow

EU member states outside Schengen green

Countries being/will be screwed by Islam......choose any colour you like except light blue at the moment.

[Mudcrab]

The worrying part of Greece going broke - lets call it as it is - is the young (and old)people who will become unemployed.

Idle hands etc

Don't want to be alarmist but Turkey (you do know where Turkey is?....jeez You do know where Greece is don't you?) is Islamic leaning (strongly) and the stated goal of the current Islamic regime is to regain their old caliphate lands. I.e all the way to Spain, North Africa is a given..

Interesting times ahead.

[Loptr]

And for a dose of reality, let's get Max Keiser's view...

EDIT:

Footnote: The US gubbamint views rt.com as a propaganda network...

Edited February 7, 2015 by Loptr

[midas]

The worrying part of Greece going broke - lets call it as it is - is the young (and old)people who will become unemployed.

Idle hands etc

Don't want to be alarmist but Turkey (you do know where Turkey is?....jeez You do know where Greece is don't you?) is Islamic leaning (strongly) and the stated goal of the current Islamic regime is to regain their old caliphate lands. I.e all the way to Spain, North Africa is a given..

Interesting times ahead.

" The worrying part of Greece going broke - lets call it as it is - is the young (and old)people who will become unemployed.

Idle hands etc"

But what are the prospects for these two groups anyway even within the EU ?

[Loptr]

The worrying part of Greece going broke - lets call it as it is - is the young (and old)people who will become unemployed.

Idle hands etc

Don't want to be alarmist but Turkey (you do know where Turkey is?....jeez You do know where Greece is don't you?) is Islamic leaning (strongly) and the stated goal of the current Islamic regime is to regain their old caliphate lands. I.e all the way to Spain, North Africa is a given..

Interesting times ahead.

" The worrying part of Greece going broke - lets call it as it is - is the young (and old)people who will become unemployed.

Idle hands etc"

But what are the prospects for these two groups anyway even within the EU ?

Bingo... If Greece exits the Euro, it resets their debt and allows them to thumbs their nose at the fraudsters that set them up to fail from the very beginning by obfuscating their true financial state and the corruption within the government and certain investment banks... The BRICS have already made it clear that favorable trading partner status would be bestowed upon Greece, along with financial aid and we mustn't forget that pipeline running from Russia, through southern Turkey and ending at the Greek border... It appears that Greece has everything to gain and nothing to loose... Hell, they are already insolvent...

[boomerangutang]

and still they keep on dumbing billion after billion in that sinkhole called greece ...

people like to cheat taxes, not paying any, claming benefits being blind, handicapped ...why having swimming pools, benzes, etc...

they should have never bailed greece ...lost cause

Oh, you're talking about Greece. For a moment there, I thought you were talking about the USA.

[Pieter1964]

Difficult for me to answer here as whatever I say will be considered as biased.

We got our independence in 1828, after 400 years of occupation and slavery to the Turks.

We haven't got many natural resources and the Greek terrain mostly consists of bare rocky land, difficult for agriculture.

Manufacturing is nearly non existent.

Shipping was famous all over the world but the Greek ship owners decided to register their fleet with foreign flags so to avoid paying any taxes .

The only assets we had were tourism and our famous Greek Filoksenia.

Introducing Greece to the Euro has rocketed the tourist prices for the past 10-15 years.

So any advantage we had to other tourist orientated countries has disappeared.

I do agree that our introduction to the EU was not 100% genuine, but for us was a big step forward and a way getting out of poverty and misery we suffered for all those years.

Now the situation is that we are back to where we started and even worst.

Unemployment is high, people started starving, pensioners have seen their pensions cut in half, due to the austerity measures introduced by our EU partners.

I'm not saying that what they imposed on us is wrong, after all the loans have to be paid back.

But for how long are we expected to suffer?

For how many generations are we supposed to suffer?

People is known through history to revolt against poverty and suffering.

Why Greek people has to endure this?

Ask yourselves if you were in the same situation what you would have done.

Yes, I would accept the answer, you put yourselves in the shit you come out now if you can.

But it seems there is a change for us to come out.

Contrary to my believes, Russia and China are offering a helping hand.

I would take it as I can't see any other solution to our suffering.

Dear costas,

As you stated yourself here above, what would we do IF we would be in the same position.

The answer is simple to that.

We north europeans will not get in the same position ever, as we understand very well that earnings have to come before spending.

And we can not spend what we do not have.

So, the same for the new government on greece, they are already spending what they not have and never will get.

Just to make to real greek people suffer more later.

Pay your taxes, as you should pay them, stop many laws that males is possible to evade taxes, like if house not finished, taxes not need to pay.

But, Costas,

Tell us how long we need to look at the countries that are connected to mediteranian sea and see how they are spending the money that is earned by the northern countries, how long do we need to take the bullshit stories about why it is not possible to do this or that to make sure the government and big companies are not corrupt.

When wiil spain, portugal, greece, italy,france leave the euro zone and even better, leave schengen and eu also.

Would be better for all of us i think.

Then you can do what ever you want, how ever you want and when you want

Bur be not surprised that you still go broke every 3 to 6 years.

As the only thing a greek person is good at, evade paying anything they need to pay and borrow as much as they can without the intention to pay back ever.

[nisakiman]

Perhaps all the 'experts' on the profligate Greeks should read this:

This is only part of the story, though. Indeed, Greece started the fiscal consolidation effort with a deficit before interest payments of circa 24 billion euros in 2009 and was running a primary deficit in 2010, 2011 and 2012. From 2013 onwards, though, revenues exceeded expenses and no financing was needed to cover state operations.

The brutal belt tightening meant that only just over 15 billion euros of troika loans were used for state operations. Combined with some other government financing needs (mostly relating to repayments of arrears that accumulated in the first two years of the crisis) the combined allocation to the Greek state’s operating needs was just 11 percent of the total funding, at circa 27 billion euros.

See more at: http://www.macropolis.gr/?i=portal.en.the-agora.2080#sthash.EEDcXLUn.dpuf

Edit because comments was playing sillybuggers for some reason.

Edited February 7, 2015 by nisakiman

[MAJIC]

They sunk more money into Greece, because if they hadn't there was a chance it would've pulled down the euro. Good ole Greece, stick it to em, you just might scupper this anachronistic, bloated club yet and also well done the UK for letting them get in the club.

So you don't believe the other member states had a vote on letting Greece in to Europe then?

[Lukecan]

People are being too hard on the Greeks.

Would you want your pensions to be cut in half overnight? These guys somehow enjoyed a prosperous economy for 10-20 years, didn't EU know that there were some irregularities taking place? I'm sure they knew very well what was going on, but they turned a blind eye on it. Greece was always corrupt, its the mediterrenan culture, Turkey is corrupt as well, so is Italy and Spain.

What good is EU for if it can't save a tiny country like Greece which only has what? 10 million, 20 million people?

There are many things EU can do to aid greece.

It can provide grants, set up factories, provide people with jobs.

It could encourage its citizens to take a vacation there in order to boost the Greek economy. If it can't to these things then one day EU will collapse, the other countries will realize that the system takes back more than it gives and ultimately the union will dissolve.

I sure hope Turkey doesn't join this BS union, giving the last kick to a country that has fallen, its low, very low.

[SheungWan]

Greece should resolve to default, twin with Argentina and invite Christina de Kirchner to guide them forwards. Same, same but different.

[schlog]

Difficult for me to answer here as whatever I say will be considered as biased.

We got our independence in 1828, after 400 years of occupation and slavery to the Turks.

We haven't got many natural resources and the Greek terrain mostly consists of bare rocky land, difficult for agriculture.

Manufacturing is nearly non existent.

Shipping was famous all over the world but the Greek ship owners decided to register their fleet with foreign flags so to avoid paying any taxes .

The only assets we had were tourism and our famous Greek Filoksenia.

Introducing Greece to the Euro has rocketed the tourist prices for the past 10-15 years.

So any advantage we had to other tourist orientated countries has disappeared.

I do agree that our introduction to the EU was not 100% genuine, but for us was a big step forward and a way getting out of poverty and misery we suffered for all those years.

Now the situation is that we are back to where we started and even worst.

Unemployment is high, people started starving, pensioners have seen their pensions cut in half, due to the austerity measures introduced by our EU partners.

I'm not saying that what they imposed on us is wrong, after all the loans have to be paid back.

But for how long are we expected to suffer?

For how many generations are we supposed to suffer?

People is known through history to revolt against poverty and suffering.

Why Greek people has to endure this?

Ask yourselves if you were in the same situation what you would have done.

Yes, I would accept the answer, you put yourselves in the shit you come out now if you can.

But it seems there is a change for us to come out.

Contrary to my believes, Russia and China are offering a helping hand.

I would take it as I can't see any other solution to our suffering.

Dear costas,

As you stated yourself here above, what would we do IF we would be in the same position.

The answer is simple to that.

We north europeans will not get in the same position ever, as we understand very well that earnings have to come before spending.

And we can not spend what we do not have.

So, the same for the new government on greece, they are already spending what they not have and never will get.

Just to make to real greek people suffer more later.

Pay your taxes, as you should pay them, stop many laws that males is possible to evade taxes, like if house not finished, taxes not need to pay.

But, Costas,

Tell us how long we need to look at the countries that are connected to mediteranian sea and see how they are spending the money that is earned by the northern countries, how long do we need to take the bullshit stories about why it is not possible to do this or that to make sure the government and big companies are not corrupt.

When wiil spain, portugal, greece, italy,france leave the euro zone and even better, leave schengen and eu also.

Would be better for all of us i think.

Then you can do what ever you want, how ever you want and when you want

Bur be not surprised that you still go broke every 3 to 6 years.

As the only thing a greek person is good at, evade paying anything they need to pay and borrow as much as they can without the intention to pay back ever.

Your post names exactly some of the reasons why the Eu plan for Greek is totaly wrong. It shows the lack of economical understanding. Going the previous way EU is heading directly to war on all levels. A deflation depressive country and it's economy like the greece you only make a tournaround with real external help. Economic stimulus plan and a law reform is the way to go and no more austerity.

[boomerangutang]

All countries spend beyond their means. The US is the world champ in that regard. Greece takes the laurels in Europe, though there's strong competition from Italy, Spain, Ireland. Politicians should spend according to what they can afford. But doing that would cut down their votes, because people and corporations always want hand-outs, and governments always spend more on materials and services than they should. So, spending-beyond-their-means us built-in to all government systems, as well as most corporations. Large banks have it best, because they can't be allowed to go belly-up. They will get bailed out by governments which themselves are over-extended. It's all so weird, and it reflects how our species thinks. It's surprising there haven't been more money-panics and depressions than there already have been. The US avoided a depression in 2008 by the skin of its teeth. Detroit is contemplating selling some of its municipal buildings because some of its wall have impressive paintings. Perhaps Athens can sell the Parthenon to a Chinese corporation.

[Pakboong]

The ECB loaned Greece at the highest interest rate of 7% knowing they were a terrible risk whereas the prime countries or the lowest risks only have to pay 1%. They were set to fail from the beginning. Top that off with a privately owned central bank which was only interested in profit they had to fail.

If Greece will nationalize their central bank and not have to create money by borrowing at high interest, they can make a comeback but it will not be easy. The BRICS bank will back them at a decent price as they need to build their operating base.

[Choctastic]

Is Corfu still available?

[nisakiman]

Is Corfu still available?

Don't laugh - there were rumours of a Qatari bid for Corfu a few years ago! Probably only rumour, but the Troika were pushing Greece hard to sell off the family jewels at the time!

[Pieter1964]

The ECB loaned Greece at the highest interest rate of 7% knowing they were a terrible risk whereas the prime countries or the lowest risks only have to pay 1%. They were set to fail from the beginning. Top that off with a privately owned central bank which was only interested in profit they had to fail.

If Greece will nationalize their central bank and not have to create money by borrowing at high interest, they can make a comeback but it will not be easy. The BRICS bank will back them at a decent price as they need to build their operating base.

The only way that greece can create their own money is get out of the euro.

Please do so and take the other garlic countries with.

Let them have their own currency please.

We, north europe will be way better off.

Due to the greece and the other garlic countries our pensions are worthless at the moment.

All because they needed to bail out the garlic countries.

There is only one thing good in that region, that is the sun.

For the ret you get screwed over everything else.

[robblok]

Is Corfu still available?

Don't laugh - there were rumours of a Qatari bid for Corfu a few years ago! Probably only rumour, but the Troika were pushing Greece hard to sell off the family jewels at the time!

Maybe we should sell off Greece to the Turks if they are not willing to pay off their loans.

Seriously Greeks have no shame. I hope Germany and the rest of the countries that helped Greece will find a way to hurt them so badly that their grandchildren will forever blame their parents for the stupidity they committed.

Let us not forget that countries like Greece and Spain and Italy not only never really contributed to the EU they only ever got subsidies from it and were always benefiting and draining EU resources. Screw them all and kick them out. Not only is the Euro low because of the idiot Greeks also Mario Draghi and his monetary plans are screwing us over. Its time the countries paying for those idiots are getting a saying in it instead of those draining the EU.

Maybe only countries who are contributors to the EU like Netherlands . Germany , Uk and so on should be allowed to vote on measures like this.

[puck2]

It's a shame and a horror to read what some "experts" write about Greece and it's political and economic situation: "Grexit" would be the best solution ("has nothing to loose ...) for Greece, writes the OP. And going on: "But Greece seems to have the upper hand thanks to the game-changing presence of the BRICS' alliance".

Maybe he doesn't know what BRICS means?

• B-rasil - in deap, deap trouble. At the moment the government has big problems because of the state Petrolio-Curruption case; upcoming powercuts and shortage of water are perdicted if there isn't some heavy rain very soon.

• R-ussia - falling gas and oil prices (more than 50%) with enormous negative influence on the budget; war in Ucraine; economic sanctions by the US and the EU. Has yet some foreign money reserves, but will need it for itself during sanction time. An oil-pipe-line to Greece would be of interest.

• I-ndia - cannot solve it's own problems, i.e. budget deficits; disastrous infra structure; income gap between the rich and the poor = social frictions; .....

• C-hina - the only serious candidate for supporting; but is Greece of big importance for China? Location?

• S-outh Africa - Housing, crimes, AIDS, education, income gap betwenn the rich and the poor. Inspite of the rich natural resources it seems not to be interested in solving the failed promises of Greece.

So it's highly unrealistic that these states would like to solve the Greek problem. And they would learn from what the EU missed to consider many years before:

1. Greece has a substandard bureaucray, especialy in the financial/tax sector. One of the reasons why tax evading for the big fishes is rather normal. No government was able to solve this problem. You can guess some politicians didn't want it either. In a nutshell, government and political promises are not reliable in Greece. 25% of the working class got their saleries from the state coffers . This noble rate didn't work for a better quality as proven before (tax offices).

2. Lying and deceiving. To receive the benefits (money) from the EU and the Euro the Greek governments faked their reports about their budgets. They did it to become a member of the Euro-group. Manipulated reports about it's financial status have been the norm over years. Of course, while the EU-bureaucray was sleeping or closed the eyes. One EUR-rule was the budget deficit should not exceed 3%, but is was up to 15% over many years. The EU was sleeping voluntarily for some time, because Germany's and Italy's (France's too?) budgets crossed the 3%-limit. Once the bubble had to burst.

3. Corruption. I wonder why the EU couldn't or wouldn't recognise this endemic disease. A German with a restaurant on the beautiful island Corfu - who I met here in Thailand before 2008 - told me he had to pay 15 % in average. Everybody living in Greece would know it, all but the EURO-embassadors.

4. Money spending for populist policies (what Greece didn't earn by itself). Like in the rice scheme here in Thailand, to be reelected the politicians promised and gave the people more than the government earned with it's own taxes and other income: high rents, wages, receiving your pension aged 50!. This was not in a reasonable and healthy ratio to what the country and the people produced. If you do all this for many years - spending more money than you earnt by yourself - you'll go bankrupt what happened to Geece. And don't forget, a lot of the EU money for investment projects didn't go to where it should have been used. Instead it went to the Greek budget for the populist policies - well hidden.

If you are in a club (EU) and you would have a member lying and cheating to receive the best benefits would you like to stay with it any more?

OP, do you think the BRICS states don't know this now? Although Russia talked already about some steps to support the Greeks, "political love" is not for free, if there is any .... .

But I agree with you, Grexit would be the best ...... for the Euro. The EURo states will loose too much money in the future. But remember, even the new left government doesn't want to loose the constant EUR money benefits. But believing all their promises that's another, but serious story.

One of the laudable EU ideas is to help poor states to win a higher income for the poor people. But if you cannot rely on this state and if it doesn't want to change seriously - as promised - let it alone. As you think the Drachme will be okay for Greece, go and buy them, you'll have nothing to lose (your words).

Edited February 8, 2015 by puck2

[nisakiman]

Is Corfu still available?

Don't laugh - there were rumours of a Qatari bid for Corfu a few years ago! Probably only rumour, but the Troika were pushing Greece hard to sell off the family jewels at the time!

Maybe we should sell off Greece to the Turks if they are not willing to pay off their loans.

Seriously Greeks have no shame. I hope Germany and the rest of the countries that helped Greece will find a way to hurt them so badly that their grandchildren will forever blame their parents for the stupidity they committed.

Let us not forget that countries like Greece and Spain and Italy not only never really contributed to the EU they only ever got subsidies from it and were always benefiting and draining EU resources. Screw them all and kick them out. Not only is the Euro low because of the idiot Greeks also Mario Draghi and his monetary plans are screwing us over. Its time the countries paying for those idiots are getting a saying in it instead of those draining the EU.

Maybe only countries who are contributors to the EU like Netherlands . Germany , Uk and so on should be allowed to vote on measures like this.

Maybe we should sell off Greece to the Turks if they are not willing to pay off their loans.

We? And who exactly is 'we'?

You don't really understand much about it, do you?

Have you any idea what financial contortions the EU performed to drag Greece into the Eurozone? Have you any idea how much Germany benefited from having the Southern European countries involved in the Euro and keeping its value low? Have you any idea about the usurious interest rates that Greece has been paying on its loans?

No, of course you don't. You know nothing about it.

[nisakiman]

It's a shame and a horror to read what some "experts" write about Greece and it's political and economic situation: "Grexit" would be the best solution ("has nothing to loose ...) for Greece, writes the OP. And going on: "But Greece seems to have the upper hand thanks to the game-changing presence of the BRICS' alliance".

Maybe he doesn't know what BRICS means?

• B-rasil - in deap, deap trouble. At the moment the government has big problems because of the state Petrolio-Curruption case; upcoming powercuts and shortage of water are perdicted if there isn't some heavy rain very soon.

• R-ussia - falling gas and oil prices (more than 50%) with enormous negative influence on the budget; war in Ucraine; economic sanctions by the US and the EU. Has yet some foreign money reserves, but will need it for itself during sanction time. An oil-pipe-line to Greece would be of interest.

• I-ndia - cannot solve it's own problems, i.e. budget deficits; disastrous infra structure; income gap between the rich and the poor = social frictions; .....

• C-hina - the only serious candidate for supporting; but is Greece of big importance for China? Location?

• S-outh Africa - Housing, crimes, AIDS, education, income gap betwenn the rich and the poor. Inspite of the rich natural resources it seems not to be interested in solving the failed promises of Greece.

So it's highly unrealistic that these states would like to solve the Greek problem. And they would learn from what the EU missed to consider many years before:

1. Greece has a substandard bureaucray, especialy in the financial/tax sector. One of the reasons why tax evading for the big fishes is rather normal. No government was able to solve this problem. You can guess some politicians didn't want it either. In a nutshell, government and political promises are not reliable in Greece. 25% of the working class got their saleries from the state coffers . This noble rate didn't work for a better quality as proven before (tax offices).

2. Lying and deceiving. To receive the benefits (money) from the EU and the Euro the Greek governments faked their reports about their budgets. They did it to become a member of the Euro-group. Manipulated reports about it's financial status have been the norm over years. Of course, while the EU-bureaucray was sleeping or closed the eyes. One EUR-rule was the budget deficit should not exceed 3%, but is was up to 15% over many years. The EU was sleeping voluntarily for some time, because Germany's and Italy's (France's too?) budgets crossed the 3%-limit. Once the bubble had to burst.

3. Corruption. I wonder why the EU couldn't or wouldn't recognise this endemic disease. A German with a restaurant on the beautiful island Corfu - who I met here in Thailand before 2008 - told me he had to pay 15 % in average. Everybody living in Greece would know it, all but the EURO-embassadors.

4. Money spending for populist policies (what Greece didn't earn by itself). Like in the rice scheme here in Thailand, to be reelected the politicians promised and gave the people more than the government earned with it's own taxes and other income: high rents, wages, receiving your pension aged 50!. This was not in a reasonable and healthy ratio to what the country and the people produced. If you do all this for many years - spending more money than you earnt by yourself - you'll go bankrupt what happened to Geece. And don't forget, a lot of the EU money for investment projects didn't go to where it should have been used. Instead it went to the Greek budget for the populist policies - well hidden.

If you are in a club (EU) and you would have a member lying and cheating to receive the best benefits would you like to stay with it any more?

OP, do you think the BRICS states don't know this now? Although Russia talked already about some steps to support the Greeks, "political love" is not for free, if there is any .... .

But I agree with you, Grexit would be the best ...... for the Euro. The EURo states will loose too much money in the future. But remember, even the new left government doesn't want to loose the constant EUR money benefits. But believing all their promises that's another, but serious story.

One of the laudable EU ideas is to help poor states to win a higher income for the poor people. But if you cannot rely on this state and if it doesn't want to change seriously - as promised - let it alone. As you think the Drachme will be okay for Greece, go and buy them, you'll have nothing to lose (your words).

A German with a restaurant on the beautiful island Corfu - who I met here in Thailand before 2008 - told me he had to pay 15 % in average. Everybody living in Greece would know it, all but the EURO-embassadors.

Lots of BS in your post, but this one really stands out! As it happens, I've lived on Corfu for nearly 15 years. When I first moved there, I bought and ran a bar for a few years. I was never approached by anyone for anything other than normal local and state taxes.

Who, exactly, was your German friend paying this 15% to? Because if we're talking about 'tea money' I can tell you now, it wasn't the police, and it wasn't anyone from local government. Oh, there is corruption in Greece all right, but low level corruption disappeared a long time ago. If you offered a policeman a bribe in Greece these days, you would probably get arrested on the spot. These days the corruption is in backhanders for multi-million Euro contracts, maybe backhanders to tax officials to overlook some off-book accounting. But the days of the 'fakilo' (envelope stuffed with money) are just about gone.

[robblok]

Is Corfu still available?

Don't laugh - there were rumours of a Qatari bid for Corfu a few years ago! Probably only rumour, but the Troika were pushing Greece hard to sell off the family jewels at the time!

Maybe we should sell off Greece to the Turks if they are not willing to pay off their loans.

Seriously Greeks have no shame. I hope Germany and the rest of the countries that helped Greece will find a way to hurt them so badly that their grandchildren will forever blame their parents for the stupidity they committed.

Let us not forget that countries like Greece and Spain and Italy not only never really contributed to the EU they only ever got subsidies from it and were always benefiting and draining EU resources. Screw them all and kick them out. Not only is the Euro low because of the idiot Greeks also Mario Draghi and his monetary plans are screwing us over. Its time the countries paying for those idiots are getting a saying in it instead of those draining the EU.

Maybe only countries who are contributors to the EU like Netherlands . Germany , Uk and so on should be allowed to vote on measures like this.

Maybe we should sell off Greece to the Turks if they are not willing to pay off their loans.

We? And who exactly is 'we'?

You don't really understand much about it, do you?

Have you any idea what financial contortions the EU performed to drag Greece into the Eurozone? Have you any idea how much Germany benefited from having the Southern European countries involved in the Euro and keeping its value low? Have you any idea about the usurious interest rates that Greece has been paying on its loans?

No, of course you don't. You know nothing about it.

We as in the ones that loaned Greece money.

I know more about you then you.. when I loan money i pay it back. Its called honesty..something Greeks are not.

Greece has always been helped with money from the EU.. if we write down how much it has gotten more then it paid the amounts are staggering. So it has benefited enormously from the EU and now it wants to turn its back on the EU because it has some years of cutting spending after years of corruption and wrongful spending.

You and your country should be ashamed of itself. I seriously hope a fist is made.. and Greece is kicked out.. made a pariah in the international community, can never loan again and will have a life standard of an African country. All this because after many fat years the Greeks can't accept they have to cut back.

As for how they gotten into the EU, that is something bad too and heads should roll not only Greek heads.. but that does not change anything right now. You loan and benefit.. now you pay back.

below how much the Greeks already gotten for free

n 2013 the taxpayers of Greece received from the European Union 382 euros per head over what they contributed. Since its accession to the EU the country has received from the European Union EUR 104812 million over what it has contributed. Select a year in the upper right-hand corner to see details for other years.

http://money-go-round.eu/Country.aspx?id=EL

Edited February 9, 2015 by robblok

[puck2]

<--->

Maybe we should sell off Greece to the Turks if they are not willing to pay off their loans.

Seriously Greeks have no shame. I hope Germany and the rest of the countries that helped Greece will find a way to hurt them so badly that their grandchildren will forever blame their parents for the stupidity they committed.

Let us not forget that countries like Greece and Spain and Italy not only never really contributed to the EU they only ever got subsidies from it and were always benefiting and draining EU resources. Screw them all and kick them out. Not only is the Euro low because of the idiot Greeks also Mario Draghi and his monetary plans are screwing us over. Its time the countries paying for those idiots are getting a saying in it instead of those draining the EU.

Maybe only countries who are contributors to the EU like Netherlands . Germany , Uk and so on should be allowed to vote on measures like this.

Maybe we should sell off Greece to the Turks if they are not willing to pay off their loans.

We? And who exactly is 'we'?

You don't really understand much about it, do you?

Have you any idea what financial contortions the EU performed to drag Greece into the Eurozone? Have you any idea how much Germany benefited from having the Southern European countries involved in the Euro and keeping its value low? Have you any idea about the usurious interest rates that Greece has been paying on its loans?

No, of course you don't. You know nothing about it.

The EU performed contortions to drag Greece into the €-zone??? A new history lesson from @nisakiman

Please, please give us some historical facts so that we can trust you.

Before you write such a nonsense try to inform yourself objectively.

[robblok]

<--->

Maybe we should sell off Greece to the Turks if they are not willing to pay off their loans.

Seriously Greeks have no shame. I hope Germany and the rest of the countries that helped Greece will find a way to hurt them so badly that their grandchildren will forever blame their parents for the stupidity they committed.

Let us not forget that countries like Greece and Spain and Italy not only never really contributed to the EU they only ever got subsidies from it and were always benefiting and draining EU resources. Screw them all and kick them out. Not only is the Euro low because of the idiot Greeks also Mario Draghi and his monetary plans are screwing us over. Its time the countries paying for those idiots are getting a saying in it instead of those draining the EU.

Maybe only countries who are contributors to the EU like Netherlands . Germany , Uk and so on should be allowed to vote on measures like this.

Maybe we should sell off Greece to the Turks if they are not willing to pay off their loans.

We? And who exactly is 'we'?

You don't really understand much about it, do you?

Have you any idea what financial contortions the EU performed to drag Greece into the Eurozone? Have you any idea how much Germany benefited from having the Southern European countries involved in the Euro and keeping its value low? Have you any idea about the usurious interest rates that Greece has been paying on its loans?

No, of course you don't. You know nothing about it.

The EU performed contortions to drag Greece into the €-zone??? A new history lesson from @nisakiman

Please, please give us some historical facts so that we can trust you.

Before you write such a nonsense try to inform yourself objectively.

He is a Greek, he forgets all the money the EU pumped into his corrupt lazy little country and now moans as they have to pay back some of the money they have loaned under far more favorable conditions then they could ever have had if they were not in the EU. The Greeks want all the benefits but when its time to pay up they are willing to screw the whole of Europe over.

All this crap is already screwing me over in the exchange rate I am getting. Good thing I send a lot of money over before. But still it sucks.

[puck2]

<---->

A German with a restaurant on the beautiful island Corfu - who I met here in Thailand before 2008 - told me he had to pay 15 % in average. Everybody living in Greece would know it, all but the EURO-embassadors.

Lots of BS in your post, but this one really stands out! As it happens, I've lived on Corfu for nearly 15 years. When I first moved there, I bought and ran a bar for a few years. I was never approached by anyone for anything other than normal local and state taxes.

Who, exactly, was your German friend paying this 15% to? Because if we're talking about 'tea money' I can tell you now, it wasn't the police, and it wasn't anyone from local government. Oh, there is corruption in Greece all right, but low level corruption disappeared a long time ago. If you offered a policeman a bribe in Greece these days, you would probably get arrested on the spot. These days the corruption is in backhanders for multi-million Euro contracts, maybe backhanders to tax officials to overlook some off-book accounting. But the days of the 'fakilo' (envelope stuffed with money) are just about gone.

Because you are too lazy to google "corruption in Greece", you are not informed about what is still happening in Greece. Only 1 excerpt as an example for many of this kind

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/03/greece-corruption-alive-and-well

(from 16.09.2014):

......This summer, a lift at Athens’s largest public hospital broke down. When a repair technician arrived he couldn’t believe his eyes: knee-deep at the bottom of the shaft were hundreds of envelopes, the vessels for bribes to doctors who then dispensed with the telltale fakelakia.

“Corruption in Greece is alive and well,” said Aliki Mouriki, a sociologist at the National Centre for Social Research. ........

So I say thank you for your ""BS" and give it back to you - unused. Maybe there have been reasons to save you from corruption (bar). Okay, I respect your corruption experience, but I trust the German's experience more than yours based on all those reports you can read in google. And if you don't know the difference between tea money and corruption that's another of your problems.