There is something seriously wrong with this toilet, please confirm

[llp]

I've had a my toilet reset on a wax seal, and cemented down, twice!

Once by a handyman, and once again bought another wax seal and had a "professional" plumber who did a much better job, set up the flange properly, and filled up all the bolt holes as well as a precaution .

But the sewage gas persisted. I even got a methane detector to confirm the problem is from the toilet.

Now look and behold when I look the exact same model from underneath, there is a hole before the internal s-trap. All the gas is going into this hole and out the jet holes, as well as out the overflow pipe perhaps.

Please someone confirm with me this is not normal for a toilet to be manufactured like this. This a brand name toilet one piece modern design.

It was my understanding that excess water should flow into the toilet bowl, hence no holes before the s-trap.

[llp]

I was lead to this conclusion after the following:

1) Sealing off the water sitting in the bowl with a bag (to eliminate the change of the s-trap not working since this building doesn't have vent pipes)

This bag (not pictured) contained in the bowl did NOT inflate

2) Sealing off the seat with plastic, and securing a plastic bag over the overflow pipe which is connected to the jets, and as it turns out, perhaps connected to the hole in the first picture.

This bag inflated, before and after pictures:

Edited February 14, 2015 by llp

[llp]

Is this image correct assumption of what's going on:

[Prapaexpert]

It is difficoult to see by a Picture. But it looks like the toilet is ok.

In the left of the Picture i can see someting thar looks like som small hole?

But it can also be from a broken pipe from under the floor?

Or if the smell persist only in the night and morning. It can be the ventilation of the pipe that not work properly. And you get under pressure that suck out water from the P-trap and give you smell.

Here you can look a video what can have happend.

Best regards Janne

www.prapaexpert.com

Edited February 14, 2015 by Prapaexpert

[RichCor]

The image you provided is correct. Fresh water and Black Water should ALWAYS have an AIR GAP, so the overflow pipe should only empty into the bowl and not directly into the sewer line (after or even before the s-trap).

Another way to test this would be to seal off the bowl, place a bag over the overflow trap (exactly as you have done) and then put a little air pressure into the bowl. It should instantly inflate the bag (as the overflow dumps directly into the porcelain bowl rim.

It you have gas entering the overflow I would wonder if it's sewer gas or maybe you have something growing and off-gassing in the porcelain.

[llp]

It is difficoult to see by a Picture. But it looks like the toilet is ok.

In the left of the Picture i can see someting thar looks like som small hole?

But it can also be from a broken pipe from under the floor?

Or if the smell persist only in the night and morning. It can be the ventilation of the pipe that not work properly. And you get under pressure that suck out water from the P-trap and give you smell.

Here you can look a video what can have happend.

Best regards Janne

www.prapaexpert.com

I am referring to the hole with the arrow pointing at it, less than 1.5 centimeters in diameter.

The holes off to the left are the bolt holes, I have had the second plumber seal these with cement in my model that's currently mounted.

[llp]

The image you provided is correct. Fresh water and Black Water should ALWAYS have an AIR GAP, so the overflow pipe should only empty into the bowl and not directly into the sewer line (after or even before the s-trap).

Another way to test this would be to seal off the bowl, place a bag over the overflow trap (exactly as you have done) and then put a little air pressure into the bowl. It should instantly inflate the bag (as the overflow dumps directly into the porcelain bowl rim.

It you have gas entering the overflow I would wonder if it's sewer gas or maybe you have something growing and off-gassing in the porcelain.

It does instantly and slowly start inflating without using any air pressure device, just wait 30 seconds to a minute and the bag will inflate, in the evenings when there is heavy bathroom usage in my building

The water is not bubbling and I have even sealed off that part to make sure gas pressure isn't making it past the s-trap. As well as made soap bubbles to see if they inflate/pop.

The hole in the picture with red arrow is not the drain right, its way too small? I didn't even bother looking but I believe the drain is off perpendicular and would be at a minimum 6cm in diameter, if not more, while I recall the red arrow hole being less than 1.5cm.

[RichCor]

What's the make/model of the toilet?

[llp]

In the picture of the toilet cross section, I've draw the blue lines to make a bold claim that this brand/model is horrible engineering, that there is a hole that leads from the sewage line to the air jets and overflown tube.

Not sure if its okay to mention brand, isn't that slander, even though I'm posting just the facts and pictures. I'll PM it to you to be safe.

[RichCor]

Most all toilets I have seen that are feed from a tank only dump water into the bowl. Most also use a double-wall design.

The graphic below shows a single-wall design that, if cracked, would allow sewer gas to escape up through the overflow.

I also saw some stupid-ass illustration that depicted a direct water-siphon design. But still, nothing that showed a second port (for gas or water flow). I don't know of ANY toilet that works like this. Plunging that would NEVER work as the pressure would just release into the reserve tank and never push the clog. Idiotic illustration.

The illustration should have looked like this:

[IMHO]

It sounds to me that the problem isn't the toilet, but rather the piping - it's needs a vent pipe added. If the gas doesn't come up that little hole, it's just going to bubble up through the bowl..

[RichCor]

Even in this water-siphon design, where water flows into and under the porcelain bowl, all the toilet designs utilize the s-trap (as sewer gas trap).

You've proven there's a problem (with the bag over the overflow pipe). Given some designs (like the one in the first illustration below) if might be difficult even after pulling up the toilet to test for air leaks (as you say, no bubbles present through the s-trap) ... so it's probably easier to replace the thing.

[Prapaexpert]

llp: is the smell instant or does it come sometime on the day (morning night)?

[Prapaexpert]

Here is example of how Drain ventilation

should look.
If the house not have this properly install. Then the problem with smell persist.

[T_Dog]

LLP... The hole you show in your photo would certainly let the gas escape as it bypasses the S trap. Looks like you need to buy a different brand and model of a throne.

[llp]

The smell is all the time, and much heavier in the evenings. It's not feasible to install vents, I'm renting and its easier to move, other units don't have such a strong smell so I figure it its just the toilet I can get it fixed.

This toilet design just dumps water from the jets and a bigger main jet hole in the front top of the lid. It doesn't create a vortex at all, but has no problem flushing at all. There isn't any other siphon hole like some other models have as there appears just to be one exit hole that leads to the s-trap and that's it.

I will be replacing it but want to make sure that other models do not have this hole as show in the first post, whatever purpose it serves and where it connects will remain a mystery....I have sprayed water in the overflow and yes it comes out jets, as the overflow also has the small tube to fill up the bowl via the jets. Once I change the toilet I can see if the hole in the original picture is linked to the jets/overflow, it won't surprise me since this is Thailand after all.

Edited February 14, 2015 by llp

[NoBrainer]

Why not just change the Toilet?

I had similar problems & I threw the toilet away and purchased the Square looking model from Cotto with a soft close lid, for around 10K baht.

Comes with a Wax seal and had it installed by a guy who was very professional, and presto. No more smell. Made me crazy for about a year. The first toilet was installed without a wax seal.

Re-installed it with a wax seal and same problem your having. Gas was still leaking in from somewhere.

[Max in Udon]

In our village of new houses, my house is now nearly 3 years old, the builders workers line up the toilet outlet with the 4" PVC pipe in the floor...........approximately. Obviously, difficult to line up the pipes accurately when the worker cannot see what he is doing. Net result with my toilets, is that only a percentage of toilet waste goes down the PVC soil pipe, and the remainder stays under the toilet, until the next flush, when some of the waste will come back into the bowl. The builders remedy to the bad sewer gas smells, is to seal the base of the toilet to the floor with tile grout. But it only needs a very small hole in the grout, which I suspect is not waterproof, for the bathroom to fill with a bad smell. My remedy has been to replace the hard wax seal, where, and if it was fitted with a proper gas and water tight gasket, by Fluidmaster, wax free toilet bowl gasket, obtainable from Homepro for about 650 baht. One of the staff in Homepro told me when I queried how difficult it would be to install hold down bolts at the rear of the toilet, that here in Thailand, they seal the toilet to the floor with silicon. So, after installing the new gasket in the PVC soil pipe, I applied a liberal coat of silicon to the underside of the toilet pan, and then gently lowered the toilet so that the outlet pipe slid into the new gasket. Now, no smells at all in the bathroom, and no leakage of fluids from under the toilet.

I have also found that the quality of the inlet valve as original was very poor, and gave a very slow fill, so they have been replaced with better quality ones, again from Homepro, and the cisterns fill in less that 30 seconds. When changing the toilets in m y house, I chose to get away from the dual flush models, electing instead to go for a single 6 litre flush, which has a much simpler flush mechanism.

[howg]

Unless this is the weirdest toilet ever made, it is not the fault of the toilet.

If all were well within the drainage system, you would have a nice, strong vortex when flushed.

The very fact that there is no vortex confirms that it is a venting problem (IMO).

Normally, gas would/could only escape through the floor seal or a crack in the toilet body (unlikely w/o leaking water too).

That your test bag fills with air so quickly shows there is positive presssure within the system, which should not be the case.

If only a problem with a faulty toilet/ seal/ crack, then yes, you could get some sewer gas odour.

But if properly vented, there would still not be positive pressure.

I have installed and fixed scores of toilets over the past 30 years, from the cheapest to the best.

But I assure you that none would work properly, and they'd all smell, if the venting were faulty.

FYI: Venting appears to be an unknown plumbing principle in this country!

And even if you had the gumption to fix it, you'd have to start tearing out walls and re-doing the entire system.

Time to move me thinks - but do test the toilets in your new abode before committing to it!

[llp]

Why not just change the Toilet?

I had similar problems & I threw the toilet away and purchased the Square looking model from Cotto with a soft close lid, for around 10K baht.

Comes with a Wax seal and had it installed by a guy who was very professional, and presto. No more smell. Made me crazy for about a year. The first toilet was installed without a wax seal.

Re-installed it with a wax seal and same problem your having. Gas was still leaking in from somewhere.

Yup I learned after two wax seals that Thai cement is just as good if you plug the bolt holes.

I will be changing the toilet now that I know its the problem and that venting is not a huge issue .

People think I'm crazy when I say its a problem with the toilet but I won't be surprised if these models where recalled overseas and resold in Thailand. Glad to know someone else had the same issue.

[llp]

Unless this is the weirdest toilet ever made, it is not the fault of the toilet.

If all were well within the drainage system, you would have a nice, strong vortex when flushed.

I'm thinking it is the weirdiest toilet made. You installed toilets in first world countries where they have recalls, correct? Can you explain the hole I've taken a picture of, where it's linked to, and what purpose it serves?

I'm been paying more attention to other toilets and not all do the vortex. I can get a vortex going if I dump a bucket of water at a certain angle. This model just dumps water vertically from all sides forcing the waste to pop under the s-trap and away. Never any issues even with a half flush button. Can others comment about vortexs on newer one piece models?

100% agree that venting can be a big issues in Thailand, as it doesn't exist or improperly done. I know there are venting issues but I haven't seen the water move or bubble even with foam. Other apartment units above me or below don't smell. I'm not looking for 100% fix just don't want gas escaping 24 hours a day.

Thank you and everyone for their input so far.

[masuk]

In our village of new houses, my house is now nearly 3 years old, the builders workers line up the toilet outlet with the 4" PVC pipe in the floor...........approximately. Obviously, difficult to line up the pipes accurately when the worker cannot see what he is doing. Net result with my toilets, is that only a percentage of toilet waste goes down the PVC soil pipe, and the remainder stays under the toilet, until the next flush, when some of the waste will come back into the bowl. The builders remedy to the bad sewer gas smells, is to seal the base of the toilet to the floor with tile grout. But it only needs a very small hole in the grout, which I suspect is not waterproof, for the bathroom to fill with a bad smell. My remedy has been to replace the hard wax seal, where, and if it was fitted with a proper gas and water tight gasket, by Fluidmaster, wax free toilet bowl gasket, obtainable from Homepro for about 650 baht. One of the staff in Homepro told me when I queried how difficult it would be to install hold down bolts at the rear of the toilet, that here in Thailand, they seal the toilet to the floor with silicon. So, after installing the new gasket in the PVC soil pipe, I applied a liberal coat of silicon to the underside of the toilet pan, and then gently lowered the toilet so that the outlet pipe slid into the new gasket. Now, no smells at all in the bathroom, and no leakage of fluids from under the toilet.

I have also found that the quality of the inlet valve as original was very poor, and gave a very slow fill, so they have been replaced with better quality ones, again from Homepro, and the cisterns fill in less that 30 seconds. When changing the toilets in m y house, I chose to get away from the dual flush models, electing instead to go for a single 6 litre flush, which has a much simpler flush mechanism.

I had a similar problem of sewer gas smells in my toilet when I moved into a condo. It was bad enough getting sewer gas smells in the kitchen, but it was obvious that as it was directly connected to the main waste pipe and no pee trap, everything was venting into the kitchens here. Fixed that by having a pee trap fitted.

The toilet also bothered me, as the toilet has no fan, no ventilation. I happened to put some blue toilet cleaner into the header tank, and a few days later noticed it seeping over the floor. Out with the silicone gun and a thick bead all around the throne, and problem fixed.

Makes me wonder what the plumbing inspector was doing on inspection day. Long-term residents here tell me the pans were fitted without "O" rings.

[paulatinamente]

Have a look at www.studor.net

[Prapaexpert]

Om inte detta är den konstigaste toaletten någonsin gjorts, är det inte fel av toaletten.

Om alla var väl inom avloppssystemet, skulle du ha en trevlig, stark virvel när rensade.

Jag tänker att det är den weirdiest toaletten gjorde. Du installerade toaletter i första världens länder där de har återkallelser, korrekt? Kan du förklara hålet jag har tagit en bild av, där det är kopplat till, och vilket syfte det tjänar? Jag har betalat mer uppmärksamhet åt andra toaletter och inte alla gör virveln. Jag kan få en virvel som går om jag dumpa en hink med vatten vid en viss vinkel. Denna modell dumpar bara vatten vertikalt från alla håll tvingar avfallet till pop under s-fällan och bort. Aldrig några problem ens med en halv spolknapp. Kan andra kommentar om vortexs på nyare ett stycke modeller? 100% håller med om att ventilering kan vara en stor problem i Thailand, eftersom det inte finns eller felaktigt gjort. Jag vet att det finns ventilations frågor men jag har inte sett vattnet flytta eller bubbla även med skum. Andra lägenhet enheter ovanför mig eller under luktar inte. Jag är inte ute efter 100% fix bara inte vill gas flyr 24 timmar om dygnet. Tack för deras input du och alla hittills.

Propably the hole is cosmetic from the factory. And above the hole is nothing (a closed space).

But try to change toilet and give report back wath happend after?

I have 35 years experience of plumbing. And i have never se the problem of smell with som design fault from factory. But of course i have mostly experience from sweden.

However if you convicted that the problem is the toilet it is just to change it and testif it help.

[T_Dog]

It does look like a design flaw. Some designer thought it would be cool to have some of the flush water go straight down the drain but he didn't think it through completely. That is not a casting flaw as it is too well done. Made a perfect escape route for any sewer line fumes.

[llp]

Note that for the bag experiment, I have placed a separate seal bag directly above the sitting water which is 100% deflated, so its not the s-trap or vapor pressure. The leak comes from under this section hence I wasn't surprised to find a hole. I wish I can just patch the hole but there will be standing water above it, and being a one piece I can't determine the top part of this tunnel. When I switch to a new toilet, will cure my curiosity and pour water in this hole while having old toilet upside down, unless someone knows a way to generate smoke.

[tom21]

does the septic tank have a vent. if not take the inspection plug out and see if it makes a difference

[llp]

I have 3 bags / plastic seals. The RED bag does not inflate at all. The BLUE seal will inflate if you seal off the overflow tube securely. The bag marked YELLOW over the overflow value will inflate as long as blue is sealed.

There is obviously a link from the BLUE to the YELLOW bag, pushing down on blue will inflate yellow a little bit and vice versa, this is normal in all toilets as the jets and overflow connect to the bowl. What's not normal is for there to be a third connection to this area from the sewage tube.

In a couple days I will get a new toilet and all the answers will be known.

[solstan]

If you get gas back via the toilet then IMO this is mostly a venting problem.

When you build it for a single toilet/house the heat and the fresh supply get the process going that turn the sh*t into heat and gas. That gas has to escape and if you have no exit via the tank or an upper exit of the line leading to the tank then you will have a smelly problem inside.

That the others in the house doesnt have a problem might be because the design of your house is that everyone has a a separate pipe going down and the others cennection is vented and yours isnt. Or maybe they have an open air room that makes their bubbles go away more easy. Its also different depending on what floor youre in. If youre on the first floor you get the air pressure from everyone above you if the pipe design is bad ... or the area of the pipe is to small.


About the small hole in the bottom of the water tank. Some more exclusive models add a small return hole to keep the splashing and flushing sound down. You might be pleased for that design if you sit down and then flush.
That hole is connected to the upper part of the rear of the bowl, about where your rear exit would be when you sit down
Plug it with a silicone earplug and you might hear the result ...

So, as it sounds - you probably have a vent problem but to get a super to react to it ... not easy and one more thing. When Thais flush. they usually use more water then paper, and that extra water flushes a lot of potential blockage away.

Good luck!

[greenchair]

Oh god. I never thought toilets would be so interesting.

Get a new toilet for goodness sake. It would have cost a quarter of what you have already spent.