Capital punishment concerns raised over Thai backpackers' murder case

[JLCrab]

Strangely civilised countries have convicted without either a body or a murder weapon.

But with the multiple confessions and the DNA a reasonable person may indeed convict the 2 Burmese defendants

Without a body or murder weapon the prosecution has to rely on circumstantial evidence instead - e.g. a witness to the murder, which would be a very interesting development.

I repeat, David's DNA is not on the hoe, so a reasonable person could conclude the B2 didn't murder David with it. No DNA. No DNA. Multiple confessions that have since been retracted, is unreliable either way.

Gee -- maybe the prosecution has never thought about that.

It wouldn't surprise me. Or, more likely, they couldn't care less, because they'll get a conviction which will be challenged in the appeals court, and eventually end up in the supreme court. By then, years have passed, and the world goes on...

Maybe they'll read about it here and -- thanks to you -- wise up.

Edited March 11, 2015 by JLCrab

[stephenterry]

Without a body or murder weapon the prosecution has to rely on circumstantial evidence instead - e.g. a witness to the murder, which would be a very interesting development.

I repeat, David's DNA is not on the hoe, so a reasonable person could conclude the B2 didn't murder David with it. No DNA. No DNA. Multiple confessions that have since been retracted, is unreliable either way.

Gee -- maybe the prosecution has never thought about that.

It wouldn't surprise me. Or, more likely, they couldn't care less, because they'll get a conviction which will be challenged in the appeals court, and eventually end up in the supreme court. By then, years have passed, and the world goes on...

Maybe they'll read about it here and -- thanks to you -- wise up.

Gee - I never thought about that.

[greenchair]

Well I read on another site close to the b2 . That David Cameron has met with the person on that site. And they looked to have very big smiles.

And the justice ministry went to visit also. And the b2 were discussed. And there were smiles.

We all might be in for some surprises.

Imagine if those brits did find some dna on Hannah.

Dna that did not match the b2.

Imagine that. ??

And imagine if that dna matched a certain someone or two.

??

[draftvader]

Post removed for a generalisation about Thai nationals and their ability to speak English.

11) You will not post slurs, degrading or overly negative comments directed towards Thailand, specific locations, Thai institutions such as the judicial or law enforcement system, Thai culture, Thai people or any other group on the basis of race, nationality, religion, gender or sexual orientation.

For the record I know MANY Thai nationals with outrageous command of the English language, both spoken and written. I have a firm belief that there are more Thais capable of excellent English than there are foreigners capable of excellent Thai.

-----------------

Another post removed and member given 24 hours posting suspension for flaming.

7) You will respect fellow members and post in a civil manner. No personal attacks, hateful or insulting towards other members, (flaming) Stalking of members on either the forum or via PM will not be allowed.

8) You will not post disruptive or inflammatory messages, vulgarities, obscenities or profanities.

[catsanddogs]

On a FBook page I can't mention the court hearing dates have been listed. 10 days for the prosecution, five days for the defence, and one day for the court decision date. What should one read into the imbalance?

[JLCrab]

On a FBook page I can't mention the court hearing dates have been listed. 10 days for the prosecution, five days for the defence, and one day for the court decision date. What should one read into the imbalance?

The 'imbalance' probably reflects standard Thai criminal trial procedure which, while it may seem astoundingly unfair to persons on here, is probably no surprise and routine for the able defense team.

[jdinasia]

The days for testimony are based on the number of witnesses / evidence to be presented and are subject to change

[jimmybkk]

There are a couple of non-LM cases held behind closed doors a few months back mentioned here:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/Concerns-over-trying-civilians-in-military-court-30246569.html

We are not discussing courts martial. This is about a criminal case held in a criminal court.

...in a country still under martial law, which means:

"Civilian courts remain operational, but a martial court can be given authority to hear criminal trials in cases committed under martial law. It can continue to hear cases even after martial law has been revoked."

(Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/10842902/What-does-martial-law-mean-for-Thailand.html)

[AleG]

There are a couple of non-LM cases held behind closed doors a few months back mentioned here:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/Concerns-over-trying-civilians-in-military-court-30246569.html

We are not discussing courts martial. This is about a criminal case held in a criminal court.

...in a country still under martial law, which means:

"Civilian courts remain operational, but a martial court can be given authority to hear criminal trials in cases committed under martial law. It can continue to hear cases even after martial law has been revoked."

(Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/10842902/What-does-martial-law-mean-for-Thailand.html)

They are not being tried in a military court.

[draftvader]

Replies to a post hidden yesterday have been removed. Sadly this has involved the removal of a fair conversation about translations in court. Unfortunately that is the result of including a removed post in a reply. This seemed to have happened accidentally as the 1st reply came right after my last post.

Apologies.

[jdinasia]

There are a couple of non-LM cases held behind closed doors a few months back mentioned here:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/Concerns-over-trying-civilians-in-military-court-30246569.html

We are not discussing courts martial. This is about a criminal case held in a criminal court.

...in a country still under martial law, which means:

"Civilian courts remain operational, but a martial court can be given authority to hear criminal trials in cases committed under martial law. It can continue to hear cases even after martial law has been revoked."

(Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/10842902/What-does-martial-law-mean-for-Thailand.html)

And? This case is being heard in a civilian court

[boomerangutang]

There may be up to 3 languages in court (Thai, Burmese, English), with mostly Thai, of course. If family members attend, then they'll be flummoxed for most of the time. The Brits will not understand the Thai or Burmese. The Burmese parents will not understand the English or Thai. The judges are the only people who could affect an adjustment to the 'speaking in tongues' dilemma. Not at all likely, but the judges could affect a 'UN-type' provision whereby adept translators could sit in a glass sound-proof booth, and court attendees - needing translations - could have audio ear-devices or headphones.

And that's just within the courtroom.

The summation after each day's proceedings (if a judge decides to do so) is also potentially problematic: there's the language barrier added to the self-imposed restriction of the judge having to summarize from memory - from hours of testimony. Thailand could try wrenching its court system out of the 19th century, or it can continue to plod along as usual.

[jimmybkk]

There are a couple of non-LM cases held behind closed doors a few months back mentioned here:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/Concerns-over-trying-civilians-in-military-court-30246569.html

We are not discussing courts martial. This is about a criminal case held in a criminal court.

...in a country still under martial law, which means:

"Civilian courts remain operational, but a martial court can be given authority to hear criminal trials in cases committed under martial law. It can continue to hear cases even after martial law has been revoked."

(Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/10842902/What-does-martial-law-mean-for-Thailand.html)

And? This case is being heard in a civilian court

Nope. The court case hasn't started yet. The court case currently is scheduled to be heard in a civilian court. Subtle but important difference.

[Jai Dee]

One argumentative post has been removed from this thread.

Discuss the subject matter please, not each other.

[Keesters]

On a FBook page I can't mention the court hearing dates have been listed. 10 days for the prosecution, five days for the defence, and one day for the court decision date. What should one read into the imbalance?

Bias perhaps.

[AleG]

There may be up to 3 languages in court (Thai, Burmese, English), with mostly Thai, of course. If family members attend, then they'll be flummoxed for most of the time. The Brits will not understand the Thai or Burmese. The Burmese parents will not understand the English or Thai. The judges are the only people who could affect an adjustment to the 'speaking in tongues' dilemma. Not at all likely, but the judges could affect a 'UN-type' provision whereby adept translators could sit in a glass sound-proof booth, and court attendees - needing translations - could have audio ear-devices or headphones.

And that's just within the courtroom.

The summation after each day's proceedings (if a judge decides to do so) is also potentially problematic: there's the language barrier added to the self-imposed restriction of the judge having to summarize from memory - from hours of testimony. Thailand could try wrenching its court system out of the 19th century, or it can continue to plod along as usual.

The defense has arranged for translators, that´s one of the things they have been asking money for; if they don't provide a service to your liking you may ask to get your money refunded.

[AleG]

On a FBook page I can't mention the court hearing dates have been listed. 10 days for the prosecution, five days for the defence, and one day for the court decision date. What should one read into the imbalance?

Bias perhaps.

Or the prosecution case is stronger than the defense case.

In any case the amount of evidence and arguments presented is not a measure of importance, you could have one side presenting a hundred witnesses talking about things irrelevant to the case on one side and just one witness on the other presenting pertinent and substantiated testimony, that one witness would outweigh the others in any court of law.

[JLCrab]

Hopefully those in charge of the administration of the courts and the implementation of Thai criminal procedure are monitoring these pages so that they can learn how a trial under these circumstances should be conducted.

[paddyjenkins]

Would these human rights twits agree that beating their skulls in with rocks and hoes was an abuse of the human rights of the two innocent Britons?

[jdinasia]

There are a couple of non-LM cases held behind closed doors a few months back mentioned here:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/Concerns-over-trying-civilians-in-military-court-30246569.html

We are not discussing courts martial. This is about a criminal case held in a criminal court.

...in a country still under martial law, which means:

"Civilian courts remain operational, but a martial court can be given authority to hear criminal trials in cases committed under martial law. It can continue to hear cases even after martial law has been revoked."

(Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/10842902/What-does-martial-law-mean-for-Thailand.html)

And? This case is being heard in a civilian court

Nope. The court case hasn't started yet. The court case currently is scheduled to be heard in a civilian court. Subtle but important difference.

Incorrect. The case has had judges assigned and hearings held. In a civilian court. Edited March 13, 2015 by draftvader
Cleaning up quotes

[boomerangutang]

The defense has arranged for translators, ...

And how will that work? Translators sitting next to people in court (one translator per person?) whispering in that person's ear while others are speaking? I doubt the judges will like that sort of noise. And that still doesn't address the 'daily summation' (or whatever it's called) by the judge (outside the court?) at the end of each day's proceedings.

Thais are fixated on not losing face. When world's press corps descends upon Samui next summer, they will report things as they see them. They won't be under orders (by the Thai PM, for example) to do things exactly like Thai officialdom wants things to be done ('observers only' for example). Thai judicial process may be setting itself up for some ridicule if the legal process is seen as lacking. Already, many news outlets can see through the smokescreen of what's been announced thus far by Thai officialdom, re; this case, and have been reporting their perceptions. It's like the H.C.Anderson story, The Emperor's New Clothes: just because officialdom dictates a certain scenario, doesn't mean the press corps or the general public won't see what's really happening.

All the rules re; legal proceedures are made by men (they're not dictated by some God in Heaven) and they can be adjusted by men. I don't presume I can affect any change on such haughty matters. Yet suggestions from the peanut gallery can sometimes trickle up to the ears of the mighty. ....and maybe effect some adjustments for the better.

....that´s one of the things they have been asking money for; if they don't provide a service to your liking you may ask to get your money refunded.

Get your thoughts together, and try posting again - something sensible, perhaps?.

Would these human rights twits agree that beating their skulls in with rocks and hoes was an abuse of the human rights of the two innocent Britons?

If it makes you feel better to call me a twit, go right ahead. I seek truth and justice and the most likely perps being (re-)designated as prime suspects. I don't see it happening in this case.

[Keesters]

Would these human rights twits agree that beating their skulls in with rocks and hoes was an abuse of the human rights of the two innocent Britons?

Sorry to say but deceased people have no human rights. That is from EHRC. Have problem pasting link here but Google and ask "human rights deceased" it's a site what....com. Should be easy to difficult to find. Only took me couple minutes.

[JLCrab]

I will agree with Boomer to this extent: If this is to be an extended trial, under possibly glaring international scrutiny, wherein the Prosecution and the principal prosecution witnesses know for a fact that the 2 accused are in no way complicit in the crimes for which they are charged, I don't think they're good enough to pull that one off.

[loonodingle]

Correct Keesters once your dead you don't qualify for human rights protection. Living people do despite the depravity of their crimes. Can't say I agree with that as if this was my son or daughter I would like to personally take them apart piece by piece.

How ever the important thing is we get the right people. Whilst I for one appreciate what Reprieve and the lawyers are doing and I have supported their efforts and Andy Halls i have no qualms about the real killers being hung drawn and quartered.

In my mind it's all about transparency as this will bring you the truth. All you posters who say they are guilty or not as the case maybe and are stubbornly stuck with your opinions do justice a disservice.

If this case could be rerun again it would or should be done so very differently. I fear the victims and their family's along with the 2 young men in custody will never get a fair trial and justice. But i live in hope.

[jdinasia]

Would these human rights twits agree that beating their skulls in with rocks and hoes was an abuse of the human rights of the two innocent Britons?

Sorry to say but deceased people have no human rights. That is from EHRC. Have problem pasting link here but Google and ask "human rights deceased" it's a site what....com. Should be easy to difficult to find. Only took me couple minutes.

Murder is a human rights violation. So, yes, when Hannah and David were murdered their rights were violated.

Some people seem willing to gloss over that very basic fact.

[stephenterry]

Correct Keesters once your dead you don't qualify for human rights protection. Living people do despite the depravity of their crimes. Can't say I agree with that as if this was my son or daughter I would like to personally take them apart piece by piece.

How ever the important thing is we get the right people. Whilst I for one appreciate what Reprieve and the lawyers are doing and I have supported their efforts and Andy Halls i have no qualms about the real killers being hung drawn and quartered.

In my mind it's all about transparency as this will bring you the truth. All you posters who say they are guilty or not as the case maybe and are stubbornly stuck with your opinions do justice a disservice.

If this case could be rerun again it would or should be done so very differently. I fear the victims and their family's along with the 2 young men in custody will never get a fair trial and justice. But i live in hope.

So what's new? As has been demonstrated many times, the concept of 'justice' in Thailand is who has the most money to buy it. That the system allows it is because it's flawed by centuries of malpractice.

When I hear someone from Thailand say it's not the money, it's the principle that counts, then I hold out hope for the society.

And if anyone thinks I'm Thai-bashing - it's more that I hope that better education and release for this 'face-saving syndrome' is eliminated. As you've said, I live in hope.

PS I would have preferred being more direct and to the point, but the draconian defamation laws prevent freedom of speech, IMO.

Edited March 12, 2015 by stephenterry

[jdinasia]

I will agree with Boomer to this extent: If this is to be an extended trial, under possibly glaring international scrutiny, wherein the Prosecution and the principal prosecution witnesses know for a fact that the 2 accused are in no way complicit in the crimes for which they are charged, I don't think they're good enough to pull that one off.

Agreed, it is almost laughable that people think there's a conspiracy at the level of complexity being suggested by some. When the initial pretrial hearing was moved up, people were screaming that the trial would be complete AND executions carried out before the UK coroner reports were due out in mid January. Many of those same people were then outraged that the actual first day of testimony was set for 6 months away.

The system here is different than many places and due to the lack of a requirement to follow legal precedents each time, is often confusing. That being said, you are right JLCRAB in that thinking this will be a rubber stamp for scapegoating is totally unlikely because of international attention. If the burden of proof is not met there will be an acquittal. If it is met there will be appeals after sentencing.

[DM07]

Would these human rights twits agree that beating their skulls in with rocks and hoes was an abuse of the human rights of the two innocent Britons?

Sorry to say but deceased people have no human rights. That is from EHRC. Have problem pasting link here but Google and ask "human rights deceased" it's a site what....com. Should be easy to difficult to find. Only took me couple minutes.

Murder is a human rights violation. So, yes, when Hannah and David were murdered their rights were violated.

Some people seem willing to gloss over that very basic fact.

No one is glossing it over..except the people that have orgasm- like- feelings, when it comes to executing probably innocent Burmese.

There has been a horrible crime and yes, 2 people were brutally murdered.

That is tragic, horrific and disgusting.

And most of us here, have the feeling that there might be 2 more horrific, tragic and disgusting killings of 2 more innocent people on the way!

The fact, that two innocent Brittons have been murdered, should not make people close their eyes on what comes next!

And it justifies -by no means- that 2 more people die, who might very well be innocent, too- just to quench the thirst for revenge of a few!

[Keesters]

Would these human rights twits agree that beating their skulls in with rocks and hoes was an abuse of the human rights of the two innocent Britons?

Sorry to say but deceased people have no human rights. That is from EHRC. Have problem pasting link here but Google and ask "human rights deceased" it's a site what....com. Should be easy to difficult to find. Only took me couple minutes.

Murder is a human rights violation. So, yes, when Hannah and David were murdered their rights were violated.

Some people seem willing to gloss over that very basic fact.

Better take it up with the EHRC. With so many murders worldwide every day do you think they will agree. I doubt they will even listen. The website with the EHRC decision is a q&a site. Let us know what they say.

The murders were indeed tragic and I wish they, like all murders, never happened. In a way their human rights in trying to find the culprits is being served. What else can be done for them? The human rights of the victims living families as well as the accused are presently being taken care off.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Keesters

[stephenterry]

Would these human rights twits agree that beating their skulls in with rocks and hoes was an abuse of the human rights of the two innocent Britons?

Sorry to say but deceased people have no human rights. That is from EHRC. Have problem pasting link here but Google and ask "human rights deceased" it's a site what....com. Should be easy to difficult to find. Only took me couple minutes.

Murder is a human rights violation. So, yes, when Hannah and David were murdered their rights were violated.

Some people seem willing to gloss over that very basic fact.

No one is glossing it over..except the people that have orgasm- like- feelings, when it comes to executing probably innocent Burmese.

There has been a horrible crime and yes, 2 people were brutally murdered.

That is tragic, horrific and disgusting.

And most of us here, have the feeling that there might be 2 more horrific, tragic and disgusting killings of 2 more innocent people on the way!

The fact, that two innocent Brittons have been murdered, should not make people close their eyes on what comes next!

And it justifies -by no means- that 2 more people die, who might very well be innocent, too- just to quench the thirst for revenge of a few!

Well said. Just my thoughts. The phrase - 'when they get the needle' - with the repeated use of 'needle', is obscene, and not welcome in this forum, IMO.