Capital punishment concerns raised over Thai backpackers' murder case

[loonodingle]

As long as it's 100% the person is guilty I dont have a problem with Execution. Better than they get out in 15 years to carry on there life. The victims aren't afforded the same luxury.

I would go as to say to the parents if you want to do the deed the your welcome. As a father of 6 i would have no doubt i would jump at the chance.

All this namby pamby oh its murder is rubbish. The day you murder someone you loose the right to a life. You bring about a cycle of events that end your life. It's self inflicted and you can blame no one else.

But i say again you must have utter transparency in finding the facts. Without that 2 young men could well get the sentence and be innocent.

Edited March 13, 2015 by Jai Dee
deleted quoted removed post

[metisdead]

Off topic deflection nonsense posts and replies have been removed.

[Keesters]

As long as it's 100% the person is guilty I dont have a problem with Execution. Better than they get out in 15 years to carry on there life. The victims aren't afforded the same luxury.

I would go as to say to the parents if you want to do the deed the your welcome. As a father of 6 i would have no doubt i would jump at the chance.

All this namby pamby oh its murder is rubbish. The day you murder someone you loose the right to a life. You bring about a cycle of events that end your life. It's self inflicted and you can blame no one else.

But i say again you must have utter transparency in finding the facts. Without that 2 young men could well get the sentence and be innocent.

100% the person is guilty. And how many times has that been the case and then many years later found out not to be. As good a job as a decent police, prosecutor, judge and jury can make even they make mistakes. And in the case of the B2 can any of the prosecution in the case be said to have done a good job. It is all too risky IMO. You could end up taking away somebody's innocent life just as a murdered victims was. I see no difference. I do not see justice as being served in sitting there watching someone being given a lethal injection. That is bringing yourself down to the same level as the one who committed the murder. A level that I hope I never reach.

Oh and BTW life imprisonment should be just that, life. No parole, no short sentences.

I think on that score we should at least be able to agree.

Edited March 13, 2015 by Jai Dee
deleted removed quoted post

[jdinasia]

As the definition of murder is the unlawful taking of a human life with premeditation your reply is just nonsense.


I am not volunteering for it.

The discussion here is not the death penalty, simply because the death penalty is the law of the land.

Edited March 13, 2015 by Jai Dee
removed quoted post

[stephenterry]

Just to note from Penal Code of Thailand:

Section 177 Whoever, giving a false evidence to the Court in the judicial proceedings, if such false evidence is an essential matter in the case, shall be punished with imprisonment not exceeding five years or fined not exceeding ten thousand Baht, or both.

If the offence mentioned in the first paragraph is committed in the criminal proceeding, the offender shall be punished with imprisonment not exceeding seven years and fined not exceeding fourteen thousand Baht.

Are you being serious? Get real.

So your version of real is that there will be a chorus-line of witnesses willing to offer perjured testimony?

Work out why I cannot comment more specifically. Enough to say a prosecution witness is already cleared to give evidence without any consequence.

[boomerangutang]

For those who are suggesting that daily events at the trial will be reported, can you point to where I can find details of the daily reporting at previous trials. I would be interested to see the actual way the events were reported rather than pure speculation based on someone's expectations of the reporting.

I couldn't find any replies to my earlier post. Not even one link to a daily report from a previous trial?

Well, I don't know if this fits what you're cruising for, but in December, when the 2 Burmese defendants went to their arraignment, there was a report afterwards (by the judge?):

Judge asked the defendants: "If you didn't do the crime, do you know who did?"

Defendant(s) (assuming one spoke): "We don't know. We were partying and drunk that night. We went home."

The above two lines were a summary of what transpired that day in court. There may have been a lot of other things mentioned that day, but we (the general public and the press corps and the families) only hear the summation from the judge, if he decides to speak. And that summation is from memory, because no recording devices are allowed in the court room.

There are a few things wrong with that type of reporting:

>>> it relies on the judge's memory. What mortal among us can remember details of hours of testimony?

>>> it relies on the judge discerning those summations which he deems most relevant/important, or which stick in his memory most prominently.

>>> it relies on his interpretation and distillation of hours of testimony.

All humans have imperfect recollection - even judges in robes(!). A recording device would help.

Just the small issue mentioned above, re; the December arraignment. It was reported (by the judge?) that 'the defendants said' such 'n such. Does that mean the both said the same thing independently (if so, did the judge ask the question twice, once to each defendant?)? Did one speak for both of them? Did they both speak the same words concurrently? If one defendant answered the question, does that automatically mean the other concurs 100%. Even if they were Siamese twins, they are two individuals, and can think and act independently. Is the judge going to assume that the answer from one defendant is automatically the identical answer from the other?

[greenchair]

We don't know. We were drunk.

We went home. Are indicative of the perilous situation the 2 are in. One should remember that at no time have they been allowed to speak to lawyers, family or embassy workers alone. I wonder if this statement was forced upon them.

Neither the rtp nor the 21 year b2 have been able to provide the slightest indication of how this crime was possible . Even the creative police could not come up with a plausible scene as shown in the enactment. This statement kept all the questions at bay. (Conveniently ). If b2 received bail and out of daily danger, with full protection provided. they may well have a different story . if I knew I was going to spend the night with a high possibility of suicide. I would say and do anything I was told.

Human nature demands us to preserve our own life at whatever cost. ????

[JLCrab]

Just to note from Penal Code of Thailand:

Section 177 Whoever, giving a false evidence to the Court in the judicial proceedings, if such false evidence is an essential matter in the case, shall be punished with imprisonment not exceeding five years or fined not exceeding ten thousand Baht, or both.

If the offence mentioned in the first paragraph is committed in the criminal proceeding, the offender shall be punished with imprisonment not exceeding seven years and fined not exceeding fourteen thousand Baht.

Are you being serious? Get real.

So your version of real is that there will be a chorus-line of witnesses willing to offer perjured testimony?

Work out why I cannot comment more specifically. Enough to say a prosecution witness is already cleared to give evidence without any consequence.

I cannot work out why you cannot comment more specifically as to the Prosecution's modus operandi as you mention in almost every reply you make to one of posts that I underestimate the ways-the-world-in-Thailand as to losing face, family connection, government political hierarchy, etc. So I will just defer to your higher level evaluation of what may transpire this summer.

[AleG]

For those who are suggesting that daily events at the trial will be reported, can you point to where I can find details of the daily reporting at previous trials. I would be interested to see the actual way the events were reported rather than pure speculation based on someone's expectations of the reporting.

I couldn't find any replies to my earlier post. Not even one link to a daily report from a previous trial? I have to say I am disappointed. After the reassuring assertions of some posters that we should all just wait for the trial at which time all will be revealed... Whilst others talked about being interested to see how evidence presented would stand up to scrutiny at the trial...

It's beginning to look like some people were trying to pull the wool over other people's eyes. Can no-one find a daily report from any previous trial? Or how about a report on how some evidence presented at a trial was scrutinized?

Hmmm...

Back in the days of the Roman Empire, when Christians were being thrown to the lions at the Colosseum, I can't help but feel some posters here would have been wandering around the Christian dwellings giving false hope to those who cared about the condemned Christians by saying things like: "They still have a chance. Some of those Christians look quite big you know. Let's all just wait and see how it plays out on the day before we get too hysterical. A lot will depend on how hungry the lions are..."

And all the while wearing t-shirts that said "Go Lions!"

You haven't been paying attention to the reports from the Koh Tao murder trials?

Search "Koh Tao murders: Pre-trial court hearing today - Bangkok Post" for example, it took me about five seconds to find that out; or the Tweets from Andy Hall during the hearings such as this one.

[greenchair]

We don't know. We were drunk.

We went home. Are indicative of the perilous situation the 2 are in. One should remember that at no time have they been allowed to speak to lawyers, family or embassy workers alone. I wonder if this statement was forced upon them.

Neither the rtp nor the 21 year b2 have been able to provide the slightest indication of how this crime was possible . Even the creative police could not come up with a plausible scene as shown in the enactment. This statement kept all the questions at bay. (Conveniently ). If b2 received bail and out of daily danger, with full protection provided. they may well have a different story . if I knew I was going to spend the night with a high possibility of suicide. I would say and do anything I was told.

Human nature demands us to preserve our own life at whatever cost. ????

Yes,and I am sure that if the b2 were given bail. They would have about a 90% chance of winning, with a fair playing field.

[draftvader]

Image of a 3rd party who, at this time, has no involvement in the case has been removed along with a reply. It is in the forum rules and Thai law. Sorry guys.

6) You will not post comments that could be reasonably construed as defamation or libel.

Defamation is the issuance of a statement about another person or business which causes that person to suffer harm. It does not have to be false to be defamatory. Libel is when the defamatory statement is published either in a drawing, painting, cinematography, film, picture or letters made visible by any means, or any other recording instruments, recording picture or letters, or by broadcasting or spreading picture, or by propagation by any other means. Defamation is both a civil and criminal charge in Thailand.

[elliss]

Basicaly if your a Brit in Thailand and get in trouble. Do not expect any help from Britain. It is called diplomacy!

Please inform ,

Why by birth right , should a Brit, in Thailand , have more rights , than a Thai national .

The days of the big white hunter , have long gone . kap

[balo]

Did I miss anything from the last 2 weeks ?

Has this become the new official Kao Tao thread? Lets keep it civil this time . And accept both sides of the coin even if you do not agree.

[jimmybkk]

For those who are suggesting that daily events at the trial will be reported, can you point to where I can find details of the daily reporting at previous trials. I would be interested to see the actual way the events were reported rather than pure speculation based on someone's expectations of the reporting.

I couldn't find any replies to my earlier post. Not even one link to a daily report from a previous trial? I have to say I am disappointed. After the reassuring assertions of some posters that we should all just wait for the trial at which time all will be revealed... Whilst others talked about being interested to see how evidence presented would stand up to scrutiny at the trial...

It's beginning to look like some people were trying to pull the wool over other people's eyes. Can no-one find a daily report from any previous trial? Or how about a report on how some evidence presented at a trial was scrutinized?

Hmmm...

Back in the days of the Roman Empire, when Christians were being thrown to the lions at the Colosseum, I can't help but feel some posters here would have been wandering around the Christian dwellings giving false hope to those who cared about the condemned Christians by saying things like: "They still have a chance. Some of those Christians look quite big you know. Let's all just wait and see how it plays out on the day before we get too hysterical. A lot will depend on how hungry the lions are..."

And all the while wearing t-shirts that said "Go Lions!"

You haven't been paying attention to the reports from the Koh Tao murder trials?

Search "Koh Tao murders: Pre-trial court hearing today - Bangkok Post" for example, it took me about five seconds to find that out; or the Tweets from Andy Hall during the hearings such as this one.

Is that really the best you can do? The pre-trial hearing of this case is what you choose to use as a comparable to back up your assurances that everything at the actual trial will be above board because the events and happenings will be reported daily for all to see? You've got to be kidding me. Either you're a fool or else you take the rest of us for fools.

Tell you what, how about comparing apples with apples? This is a high profile case of foreign tourists being murdered in Thailand. Why don't you post some links to the trial reports from another murder case where the victim was a foreign tourist so that we can all see, and be comforted by, the open and detailed reporting and the transparency of the proceedings, which presumably is what we can expect from this trial. It only took you about 5 seconds to find the reporting of this pre-trial hearing, so I can't believe it will take you much longer to find the reporting of an actual murder trial.

Incidentally, I searched "Koh Tao murders: Pre-trial court hearing today - Bangkok Post" as you suggested and almost immediately found myself reading this:

"Andy Hall (@Atomicalandy) reports that the questioning of the three witnesses has continued all day and into the evening. Little has been reported about what was said – although Hall says the male victim's (David Miller) phone was one subject. Other reports also said that Maung Maung, a friend of the suspects, did confirm he was with them near the beach earlier on the night of the murders."

So the witnesses were questioned all day and into the evening... And this is what was reported... Wow! That is a cutting edge exposé of events right there... Can we expect this level of detail at the actual trial also? Or do you think they may have to tone it down a bit? You know, a little less scrutinizing... a little less revealing... You and you're pal seem to be the experts, what do you think? Well anyway, no need to speculate, much better you just show us with these links you're going to provide, right?

[Keesters]

Basicaly if your a Brit in Thailand and get in trouble. Do not expect any help from Britain. It is called diplomacy!

Please inform ,

Why by birth right , should a Brit, in Thailand , have more rights , than a Thai national .

The days of the big white hunter , have long gone . kap

Please reread the post. The words "right" and "rights" were never used & never implied. No comparison between nationalities was made either. Your post is utter nonsense.

And if you double post it does not double its value it halves it.

[alex88]

Although I don't generally support capital punishment, if the accused are guilty then it's no loss is it.

[draftvader]

A post quoting a post number rather than using the supplied quoting function (and its replies) have been removed. If you quote a post number then we remove a post behind it you are then quoting the wrong post. Use the quoting function if discussing another member's content.

Further to this I have removed huge swathes of off-topic conversation. This topic is not about promotion in the military.

[jaidam]

Panya Mamen's recent career moves are interesting. Remember, this was the early head investigator that fingered the Koh Tao mafia and even said they admitted being on cctv before his rapid transfer to Phuket and the case subsequently went down the toilet. Interesting to see this investigator(that officially got the wrong suspects) is now assistant national police chief. Amazing.

[boomerangutang]

Basicaly if your a Brit in Thailand and get in trouble. Do not expect any help from Britain. It is called diplomacy!

Please inform ,

Why by birth right , should a Brit, in Thailand , have more rights , than a Thai national .

The days of the big white hunter , have long gone . kap

Elliss, you missed the point of Clockman's comment by a country mile. Clockman is not lamenting that a Brit doesn't get enough help from Thai authorities (though that may also be true), ...rather, he's commenting about how the British government is not helping British subjects overseas.

The two victims were British. One would hope their government would do what they can to seek justice for them. What have the British authorities done in the SIX MONTHS since the crime? They've announced NOTHING, except postponement of Coroner's findings. We don't know if the Brit coroner found anything at all, and we may never know - as she reserves the right to not release any findings.

What have Brit investigators found? Nothing in Thailand, except what Thai officials told them, and Thai officials wouldn't slant the data, would they?!? Perhaps Brit officials garnered some useful info from interviews outside of Thailand, but if so, they appear to only let the prosecution know, ...and not the defense - thereby greasing the gears for the two suspects to be killed if found guilty.

[boomerangutang]

Although I don't generally support capital punishment, if the accused are guilty then it's no loss is it.

Yes, if they are guilty, they should be punished severely. The lion's share of the prosecution's case rests on DNA. Thai officialdom is adamantly against any independent verification of the DNA trail - particularly by British experts, even though the Brits' expertise and equipment is far ahead of anything available in Thailand. Unless there's independent verification of DNA by US, European or British labs, then the DNA evidence is not solid, and it can't be proven (to objective observers) that the two are guilty of having had sex with Hannah.

[JLCrab]

So it seems that the the Topics on this Forum -- regardless of the topic heading -- have gone from proving the innocence of the 2 accused and outing the 'real killers' of Koh Tao to showing how unfair is the Thai judicial system that will allow a conga-line of perjured witnesses who will offer such perjured testimony -- knowingly or unknowingly -- with impunity without the least concern or worry that the giving of false testimony in a criminal trial is a severe crime under the Thai Criminal Code.

[Jai Dee]

Another off-topic post has been removed from this thread.

[jdinasia]

Panya Mamen's recent career moves are interesting. Remember, this was the early head investigator that fingered the Koh Tao mafia and even said they admitted being on cctv before his rapid transfer to Phuket and the case subsequently went down the toilet. Interesting to see this investigator(that officially got the wrong suspects) is now assistant national police chief. Amazing.

Panya announced the shift in the investigation on the 25th of September. He was promoted (on schedule) after saying that there would be arrests in 3 days. The arrest of the 2 Burmese men happened 2 days later. This has been covered multiple times.

[berybert]

Panya Mamen's recent career moves are interesting. Remember, this was the early head investigator that fingered the Koh Tao mafia and even said they admitted being on cctv before his rapid transfer to Phuket and the case subsequently went down the toilet. Interesting to see this investigator(that officially got the wrong suspects) is now assistant national police chief. Amazing.

Panya announced the shift in the investigation on the 25th of September. He was promoted (on schedule) after saying that there would be arrests in 3 days. The arrest of the 2 Burmese men happened 2 days later. This has been covered multiple times.

Does this mean that 1 of the official suspects refused to give DNA and refused to allow the police to look at any CCTV. And the other suspect had not been out of hiding for a week. These two things put together meant the police were unable to follow any more leads on those persons of interest and then made a change in tactic.

Did anyone ever find out who the 3rd DNA found on Hannah belonged to ? or was that another person who didn't want to play ball, and didn't have to.

[jdinasia]

Panya Mamen's recent career moves are interesting. Remember, this was the early head investigator that fingered the Koh Tao mafia and even said they admitted being on cctv before his rapid transfer to Phuket and the case subsequently went down the toilet. Interesting to see this investigator(that officially got the wrong suspects) is now assistant national police chief. Amazing.

Panya announced the shift in the investigation on the 25th of September. He was promoted (on schedule) after saying that there would be arrests in 3 days. The arrest of the 2 Burmese men happened 2 days later. This has been covered multiple times.

Does this mean that 1 of the official suspects refused to give DNA and refused to allow the police to look at any CCTV. And the other suspect had not been out of hiding for a week. These two things put together meant the police were unable to follow any more leads on those persons of interest and then made a change in tactic.

Did anyone ever find out who the 3rd DNA found on Hannah belonged to ? or was that another person who didn't want to play ball, and didn't have to.

No. It means that the investigation eliminated him as a suspect since he wasn't on the island.

[AleG]

I couldn't find any replies to my earlier post. Not even one link to a daily report from a previous trial? I have to say I am disappointed. After the reassuring assertions of some posters that we should all just wait for the trial at which time all will be revealed... Whilst others talked about being interested to see how evidence presented would stand up to scrutiny at the trial...

It's beginning to look like some people were trying to pull the wool over other people's eyes. Can no-one find a daily report from any previous trial? Or how about a report on how some evidence presented at a trial was scrutinized?

Hmmm...

Back in the days of the Roman Empire, when Christians were being thrown to the lions at the Colosseum, I can't help but feel some posters here would have been wandering around the Christian dwellings giving false hope to those who cared about the condemned Christians by saying things like: "They still have a chance. Some of those Christians look quite big you know. Let's all just wait and see how it plays out on the day before we get too hysterical. A lot will depend on how hungry the lions are..."

And all the while wearing t-shirts that said "Go Lions!"

You haven't been paying attention to the reports from the Koh Tao murder trials?

Search "Koh Tao murders: Pre-trial court hearing today - Bangkok Post" for example, it took me about five seconds to find that out; or the Tweets from Andy Hall during the hearings such as this one.

Is that really the best you can do? The pre-trial hearing of this case is what you choose to use as a comparable to back up your assurances that everything at the actual trial will be above board because the events and happenings will be reported daily for all to see? You've got to be kidding me. Either you're a fool or else you take the rest of us for fools.

Tell you what, how about comparing apples with apples? This is a high profile case of foreign tourists being murdered in Thailand. Why don't you post some links to the trial reports from another murder case where the victim was a foreign tourist so that we can all see, and be comforted by, the open and detailed reporting and the transparency of the proceedings, which presumably is what we can expect from this trial. It only took you about 5 seconds to find the reporting of this pre-trial hearing, so I can't believe it will take you much longer to find the reporting of an actual murder trial.

Incidentally, I searched "Koh Tao murders: Pre-trial court hearing today - Bangkok Post" as you suggested and almost immediately found myself reading this:

"Andy Hall (@Atomicalandy) reports that the questioning of the three witnesses has continued all day and into the evening. Little has been reported about what was said – although Hall says the male victim's (David Miller) phone was one subject. Other reports also said that Maung Maung, a friend of the suspects, did confirm he was with them near the beach earlier on the night of the murders."

So the witnesses were questioned all day and into the evening... And this is what was reported... Wow! That is a cutting edge exposé of events right there... Can we expect this level of detail at the actual trial also? Or do you think they may have to tone it down a bit? You know, a little less scrutinizing... a little less revealing... You and you're pal seem to be the experts, what do you think? Well anyway, no need to speculate, much better you just show us with these links you're going to provide, right?

"Tell you what, how about comparing apples with apples?"

I'm talking about the proceedings of the Koh Tao murder trials, you talked about Christians in the Colosseum.

"Can we expect this level of detail at the actual trial also?"

If you are not satisfied with the level of detail the press and the defense (that are going about all day about making the case transparent) offer and absolutely must know every single words uttered in the courtroom I suggest you go to the court yourself, it's open to observers you know?

[berybert]

Panya Mamen's recent career moves are interesting. Remember, this was the early head investigator that fingered the Koh Tao mafia and even said they admitted being on cctv before his rapid transfer to Phuket and the case subsequently went down the toilet. Interesting to see this investigator(that officially got the wrong suspects) is now assistant national police chief. Amazing.

Panya announced the shift in the investigation on the 25th of September. He was promoted (on schedule) after saying that there would be arrests in 3 days. The arrest of the 2 Burmese men happened 2 days later. This has been covered multiple times.

Does this mean that 1 of the official suspects refused to give DNA and refused to allow the police to look at any CCTV. And the other suspect had not been out of hiding for a week. These two things put together meant the police were unable to follow any more leads on those persons of interest and then made a change in tactic.

Did anyone ever find out who the 3rd DNA found on Hannah belonged to ? or was that another person who didn't want to play ball, and didn't have to.

No. It means that the investigation eliminated him as a suspect since he wasn't on the island.

How did they manage to work that out without speaking to him, and after his father said he had left the island that day ?

And since when did saying " I will not take a DNA test" be reason enough to rule someone out of a double murder ?

Personally I think we will find out one way or other as to whether he was on the island or not when the trial starts. I have no doubt the Burmese will be asked if they had seen or had served him a drink on the day before the murder. Tho it will be put to ask can you remember the names of any of the people you saw or served on the night before you went to the beach.

Edited March 14, 2015 by berybert

[JLCrab]

Maybe the defense will call the defendants as witnesses -- who would be subject to cross-examination -- and maybe they won't.

[AleG]

Maybe the defense will call the defendants as witnesses -- who would be subject to cross-examination -- and maybe they won't.

They should call berybert as a witness since the father of Nomsod saying his son left the island on the same day of the murders is not a matter of public record.

[stephenterry]

For those wishing to reason who could be the killers, follow this advice;

Go where the money is.

Edited March 14, 2015 by stephenterry