Thai opinion: Home tax would have the poorer folks weeping

[fanof3d]

They had it cushy for many years without paying any tax.

About time things change.

They will weep at the beginning, they will get used later.

We all paid home and land tax back in the old country.

Why should Thailand be different?

Thailand should be different because people struggle to earn a decent living. When your own country is DECREASING the amount they pay for rice, farmers make less. Not everyone lives in Bangkok. A tax for farmers doesn't even seem fair. I'm for taxing those that have homes/property valued at more than 1million baht or a restructured version of the this proposed law that doesn't take from those how don't have it to give. Imposing this for everyone will completely backfire. Next you'll be taking people to jail for not paying their taxes when in reality they simply couldn't afford to pay. "Land Development"? Yeah right. I'd love to see what their ideas for new land development are. Now if they said they'd spend the additional revenue to fix roads & improve safety, improve telecommunications and a develop strategy to create more jobs, then it's a lot easier to listen to their grand idea of property tax.... Thailand, the place of Grand Ideas.

[Bluespunk]

Deleted.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Bluespunk

[bassman]

We have been paying property taxes in my province for years. The rate is low, the assessment method I am clueless too. However the taxes go to the Tampon, I wonder how the national tax will add up, will it exempt the local tax or be an addition to?

Also a lot of confusion with this tax, is each property exempt from the first million baht, or is it the first million baht of all properties combined? There are a lot of wise folk on this site, if anyone has a clue please let us know.

On top of all this, months ago there was a poll shown on TV, that said Thai people believed that the most corrupt organization in the country was the land offices, which even rated higher (for corruption) than the RTP, where else will the assessments of value come from? If the poll was correct they should soon be the richest bureaucrats in this country.

And as for the current PM, who says many are not paying their current taxes as a need to install property taxes...what is being done to these tax dodgers? Particularly in the free, fair, open and transparent policies of this government.

[jpduggan]

They had it cushy for many years without paying any tax.

About time things change.

They will weep at the beginning, they will get used later.

We all paid home and land tax back in the old country.

Why should Thailand be different?

Greeks don't seem to want to pay up at all and isn't that why we are getting 10,000 baht less per 1000 euros now? What property tax do Greeks pay?

[trogers]

You pay a tax but what services do you get for this?

Yes, where I come from in the US property tax is not levied by the national government but, at least in theory, by local municipalities and linked to services such as refuse collection, road maintenance, schools, etc. Rates differ from one area to the next depending on general property values, but also level of services provided. Also, for tax purposes valuation are made at a fraction of current market values and need to re assessed regularly.

I have a Thai friend who lives east of Sukhumvit in Pattaya on a soi that floods whenever it rains because of inadequate and poorly designed drainage. Really the city should have sorted that out before allowing houses to be built there. They have admitted that the problem is theirs to correct, but claim they haven't the money to do anything. Asking these people to pay taxes should come with some guarantee that at least minimum municipal services are provided, but if the money is collected from the Central government will it benefit local property owners or just go into general revenue?

I suppose this will also mean land & property taxes will be imposed on condominiums and divvied up among the co-owners? Right now we have to pay the municipality for work on sanitary drainage even though the problem may be damage done outside the condo property.

Think of the whole of Thailand as a state in the US.

[Daniel Ingalls]

Taxing rich may not help, because most of the house owners are Chinese decedents, and 10 of them live together, and they will own 20 houses for renting out someone. Most rural Thai's migrate here with small families even cannot afford to rent a house in central Bangkok, they come about 40-60 KMs away from city. Chinese decedents don't mind paying any tax to hold the house, because they can increase the rent substantially. This is the core issue in Thai society and the imbalance between rural Thai's and fluent Chinese families in Bangkok.

The only way to resolve the issue is 25% of the any new apartments should be allocated to poor income earners for a reasonable price about 25% less than market price set by the developers, and they should come up with lottery scheme to allot a house for those families don't own a single house in Bangkok.

They still got to pay tax..................solves nothing here! Cut out the tax altogether on houses. Just do what Florida does, Tax every thing......food, clothes, TV,s anything the consumer buys! And most of all hit them mom and pop stores make them collect the 7% tax and actually give it to the Government.

[2fishin2]

And yet another senseless US bashing article by webfact.

[Daniel Ingalls]

Taxing rich may not help, because most of the house owners are Chinese decedents, and 10 of them live together, and they will own 20 houses for renting out someone. Most rural Thai's migrate here with small families even cannot afford to rent a house in central Bangkok, they come about 40-60 KMs away from city. Chinese decedents don't mind paying any tax to hold the house, because they can increase the rent substantially. This is the core issue in Thai society and the imbalance between rural Thai's and fluent Chinese families in Bangkok.

The only way to resolve the issue is 25% of the any new apartments should be allocated to poor income earners for a reasonable price about 25% less than market price set by the developers, and they should come up with lottery scheme to allot a house for those families don't own a single house in Bangkok.

They still got to pay tax..................solves nothing here! Cut out the tax altogether on houses. Just do what Florida does, Tax every thing......food, clothes, TV,s anything the consumer buys! And most of all hit them mom and pop stores make them collect the 7% tax and actually give it to the Government.

And by the way...............it will not be long the 7% will be 8% in all the malls, utility bills, internet bills etc.etc............................One more scam on top of another scam.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Daniel Ingalls

[trogers]

Taxing rich may not help, because most of the house owners are Chinese decedents, and 10 of them live together, and they will own 20 houses for renting out someone. Most rural Thai's migrate here with small families even cannot afford to rent a house in central Bangkok, they come about 40-60 KMs away from city. Chinese decedents don't mind paying any tax to hold the house, because they can increase the rent substantially. This is the core issue in Thai society and the imbalance between rural Thai's and fluent Chinese families in Bangkok.

The only way to resolve the issue is 25% of the any new apartments should be allocated to poor income earners for a reasonable price about 25% less than market price set by the developers, and they should come up with lottery scheme to allot a house for those families don't own a single house in Bangkok.

They still got to pay tax..................solves nothing here! Cut out the tax altogether on houses. Just do what Florida does, Tax every thing......food, clothes, TV,s anything the consumer buys! And most of all hit them mom and pop stores make them collect the 7% tax and actually give it to the Government.

And the poor do not need to purchase? Actually the poor spend almost all their little money for consumption and would end up paying lots of taxes in proportion.

The rich spends less in proportion to their income.

The fairer tax structure is to tax on the income and assets of the rich, and not jack up consumption tax.

[MaiChai]

Wonder if this is to pay for all those higher speed trains that are coming soon? Presumably buying just the land is going to cost a lot?

[WitawatWatawit]

Greeks pay taxes?

Yes, his name is Con Taxthelotofus. He's related to the famous Greek skydiver, Con Descending.

[facthailand]

Gosh, I feel happier already! Thank you, mon General, for returning a little more happiness to the Thai people!

OPs are correct to say property taxes are used for infrastructure: fire and police services, public ambulances, public schools, road maintenance, rubbish collection. Much of that simply doesn't happen in BKK.

I hope such an effort will create movements to demand such basic services and an organised tax resistance campaign.

[trogers]

I think someone needs a little percentage math refresher:

(x/y)*100 = %, where y is the total, and x is the fraction.

so to calculate 0.05% of 2M it's, (2000000*0.05)/100 = 1000

So 500 baht for 1m. Baht property?

I think even little birds can pay that.

Nooo...that would eat into my money used to buy the lottery...

[Ceruhe]

I have yet to understand the term "homeowner" in the same sentence with "still paying installments".

[Nickhick]

They had it cushy for many years without paying any tax.

About time things change.

They will weep at the beginning, they will get used later.

We all paid home and land tax back in the old country.

Why should Thailand be different?

. How can anyone vote for more taxes.people all over the world are becoming slaves to the system .enough,is enough..Nick

[elgordo38]

They had it cushy for many years without paying any tax.

About time things change.

They will weep at the beginning, they will get used later.

We all paid home and land tax back in the old country.

Why should Thailand be different?

Yes other countries have paid this for years but wages are a lot higher. The lower class here is struggling and a million baht home today is average. Go after the rich its always the little guy that pays. Bring in a inheritance tax. The ultra rich are using all their money to gobble up other companies with cheap credit at almost zero percent interest. Its nothing but a rich man's pyramid scheme.

[WheresWaldo]

Greeks pay taxes?

<deleted>? Greeks don't even pay their debts!

[trogers]

Greeks pay taxes?

<deleted>? Greeks don't even pay their debts!

And Thais do?

[Longtooth]

"Where would anyone find a house worth less than Bt1 million these days?"

I think the author of this little plum ought to get out of his / her ivory tower one day and take a better look at the great city known by Thais as Krungthep.......etc.

There are hundreds of thousands, maybe even millions of "houses" (homes) worth less than B1 million.

One cannot travel by train from Hua Lampong without seeing mile after mile of shacks and run down houses alongside the tracks.

Just about every klong has waterside structures that are used as dwelling places by poor people. Of course some klong properties are quite "des-res" and attractive, but the majority are shacks with tin roofs clustered side by side for miles.

Because of its unplanned growth there are huge communities of slum dwellers all over the city. These people may not be financially well off, but they all have a sense of community, something often lacking in the hi-so moobaans that cost millions to enter.

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The greatest sadness about such as you have described is that the majority, as you rightly pointed out, have a sense of community; and yet it seems after this week's announcement, certainly in and around BKK, the holders are being targeted into moving. A recent article stated that government help would be available to rehouse such, mainly families - yet nothing was explained about exactly how or where.

In addition, nothing has been mentioned pertaining to such that this new tax would be retrospective for all properties previously purchased, or only new properties - or am I wrong? To implement retrospective tax laws is very, very dangerous ground, and could have millions in upheaval and anger. I jointly own my own home with my wife within a mortgage agreement, for which of course there was no tax, and there is no way after what I invested to secure the mortgage will I ever pay any additional tax. I'd sooner sell the <deleted>er to a Thai, and let them pay the tax. My mortgage payments are 3 times the amount of a very large condo, and there is no way I would accept retrospective changes to my signed agreements.

In essence, is this intended to be a new law, or applicable to previously obtained property throughout the land?

You don't own a property asset, you don't pay taxes on it. You have two choices: rent or buy in your own country.

Not quite that simple. Our mortgage is in joint names through Siam Bank, and it's legitimate. There is no way my wife (Thai obv) would also pay additional tax on a retrospective agreement. I'm also sure there are multi-millions of Thais who would argue the same. So you're suggesting that they would propose my wife rent, if she objected to a new retrospective tax? The country would be in uproar - believe me. Yet it doesn't seem that anybody is able to answer my operative words - retrospective tax??

I'll give it a whirl. It's a new tax. If taxes exist, they came into being as "new" at some time in history. The tax would not be linked to a sales agreement or bank loan agreement, but on "real assessed value", as in "real estate". The proceeds would not alter any financial agreements, but would go directly to the "state". I would imagine the tax would be universal, regardless of the age of the dwelling, and "real property appraisers" would be hired, nation wide at a local level, to assess the value of each and every dwelling in the nation. There would be created a "National Assessor's Office", with district offices and thousands of trained appraisers out there measuring houses and looking at local values based on recent sales figures to determine real market value. Easy peasy.

[shaggy28303]

They don't know how to anti corrupt the money they collect now so this is corruption 102 to increase the pot

[Sonhia]

For so long, its been a carefree, disrespectful, do what I want, attitude. Maybe its time for taking on responsibilities by contributing to local government services and maybe just maybe Thailand would be a more respectful, less filthy and enjoyable place for people to reside or visit. Take a look around, what can you see? For me, what I see says it all!

[trogers]

For so long, its been a carefree, disrespectful, do what I want, attitude. Maybe its time for taking on responsibilities by contributing to local government services and maybe just maybe Thailand would be a more respectful, less filthy and enjoyable place for people to reside or visit. Take a look around, what can you see? For me, what I see says it all!

The mindset of a Thai has been nurtured to expect it is someone else's problem to pay or to provide.

Whether rich or poor, they think in the same way. That is why a village has no collective solution to handle waste. And you find owners of condos refusing to pay common fees as they leave their units vacant.

[Muhendis]

Most of the people who contribute to this forum are non-Thai and have a non-immigrant visa. To those in that category I would say you don't own land therefore you are not liable for tax on any land. You are probably either in rented accommodation or in your wife/girlfriends house in which case you are not liable for tax on the property. If you do own the house then you will be taxed on its value. Rented accommodation will probably see increases in the rent to cover taxes plus a bit extra for the landlord who sees an opportunity to make a bit more money. Your wife/girlfriend will want more from you to pay the tax if the house is in her name.

I also envisage the paper value of property dropping to reduce the tax payable.

As many others have said, it would be fine if the money collected were to be used for the benefit of the community rather than lining the pockets of the collectors. I would also add that if taxes that are already levied were used for the benefit of the country then there would be no need to add this extra tax.

[manarak]

Home tax is a very very very bad idea.

[Thai at Heart]

I don't see the issue.

Land and property is the country's single largest asset, and it is currently being used as a massive money washing scheme and the government gets nothing out of all this economic activity. Put your money in the bank, pay taxes, put your money in land, and pay virtually zilch.

There is a reason that the roads, schools and hospitals are all crap, and that is beacuse there isn;t enough money taken in taxes.

Most thais are not in the income tax system and the rich wash their cash through property which is an incorrect allocation of assets leading to bubbles. The govt needs a way to get its share of this activity.

So, if you rent a condo that is worth 500k, which is where millions of poor thais in Bangkok live, there is nothing to pay. Have a modest house, 1mn, pay a little bit. But all these 4 to 5 mn baht houses being put up and funded with weird loans guaranteed by god knows who need first of all taxing and a bit of levy put on them to make people realise they are utilising a national asset through the land. The chinese now the value of land, hence why they have managed to convince successive thai govnerments not to tax it.

[zyphodb]

What about all the land without red paper?

Who is going to value all these properties Eg farms?

Who will value the houses?

I live in Isaan & outside of the major towns & cities probably less than 0.5% of houses are worth more than one million bahts so I wouldn't have thought most Thais in the sticks are going to lose any sleep over this...

[manarak]

I don't see the issue.

Land and property is the country's single largest asset, and it is currently being used as a massive money washing scheme and the government gets nothing out of all this economic activity. Put your money in the bank, pay taxes, put your money in land, and pay virtually zilch.

There is a reason that the roads, schools and hospitals are all crap, and that is beacuse there isn;t enough money taken in taxes.

Most thais are not in the income tax system and the rich wash their cash through property which is an incorrect allocation of assets leading to bubbles. The govt needs a way to get its share of this activity.

So, if you rent a condo that is worth 500k, which is where millions of poor thais in Bangkok live, there is nothing to pay. Have a modest house, 1mn, pay a little bit. But all these 4 to 5 mn baht houses being put up and funded with weird loans guaranteed by god knows who need first of all taxing and a bit of levy put on them to make people realise they are utilising a national asset through the land. The chinese now the value of land, hence why they have managed to convince successive thai govnerments not to tax it.

That's exactly why a wealth tax is much better than property tax.

[Thai at Heart]

I don't see the issue.

Land and property is the country's single largest asset, and it is currently being used as a massive money washing scheme and the government gets nothing out of all this economic activity. Put your money in the bank, pay taxes, put your money in land, and pay virtually zilch.

There is a reason that the roads, schools and hospitals are all crap, and that is beacuse there isn;t enough money taken in taxes.

Most thais are not in the income tax system and the rich wash their cash through property which is an incorrect allocation of assets leading to bubbles. The govt needs a way to get its share of this activity.

So, if you rent a condo that is worth 500k, which is where millions of poor thais in Bangkok live, there is nothing to pay. Have a modest house, 1mn, pay a little bit. But all these 4 to 5 mn baht houses being put up and funded with weird loans guaranteed by god knows who need first of all taxing and a bit of levy put on them to make people realise they are utilising a national asset through the land. The chinese now the value of land, hence why they have managed to convince successive thai govnerments not to tax it.

That's exactly why a wealth tax is much better than property tax.

Well, why wouldn't land be part of someone's wealth?

[manarak]

I don't see the issue.

Land and property is the country's single largest asset, and it is currently being used as a massive money washing scheme and the government gets nothing out of all this economic activity. Put your money in the bank, pay taxes, put your money in land, and pay virtually zilch.

There is a reason that the roads, schools and hospitals are all crap, and that is beacuse there isn;t enough money taken in taxes.

Most thais are not in the income tax system and the rich wash their cash through property which is an incorrect allocation of assets leading to bubbles. The govt needs a way to get its share of this activity.

So, if you rent a condo that is worth 500k, which is where millions of poor thais in Bangkok live, there is nothing to pay. Have a modest house, 1mn, pay a little bit. But all these 4 to 5 mn baht houses being put up and funded with weird loans guaranteed by god knows who need first of all taxing and a bit of levy put on them to make people realise they are utilising a national asset through the land. The chinese now the value of land, hence why they have managed to convince successive thai govnerments not to tax it.

That's exactly why a wealth tax is much better than property tax.

Well, why wouldn't land be part of someone's wealth?

exactly, seems like you answer all your own questions ;-)

More seriously, a land tax or a real estate tax would mechanically push the rents up. not only would the rents themselves become more expensive, but farm products too, since they have to be grown on land, and then the shops would put up prices too, since the products have to be sold somewhere...

A land tax is a good way to generate inflation and make people overall poorer, except the rich who just increase prices. See it now?

It is the same problem with VAT. High VAT taxes consumers proportionally much more than wealthy people.

These are the models that didn't work in Europe - they made the tax systems reach always deeper into the pockets of income earners, yet it produced always more and more superrich people while pushing down upper and middle classes. A recipe for disaster.

[trogers]

I don't see the issue.

Land and property is the country's single largest asset, and it is currently being used as a massive money washing scheme and the government gets nothing out of all this economic activity. Put your money in the bank, pay taxes, put your money in land, and pay virtually zilch.

There is a reason that the roads, schools and hospitals are all crap, and that is beacuse there isn;t enough money taken in taxes.

Most thais are not in the income tax system and the rich wash their cash through property which is an incorrect allocation of assets leading to bubbles. The govt needs a way to get its share of this activity.

So, if you rent a condo that is worth 500k, which is where millions of poor thais in Bangkok live, there is nothing to pay. Have a modest house, 1mn, pay a little bit. But all these 4 to 5 mn baht houses being put up and funded with weird loans guaranteed by god knows who need first of all taxing and a bit of levy put on them to make people realise they are utilising a national asset through the land. The chinese now the value of land, hence why they have managed to convince successive thai govnerments not to tax it.

That's exactly why a wealth tax is much better than property tax.

Well, why wouldn't land be part of someone's wealth?

exactly, seems like you answer all your own questions ;-)

More seriously, a land tax or a real estate tax would mechanically push the rents up. not only would the rents themselves become more expensive, but farm products too, since they have to be grown on land, and then the shops would put up prices too, since the products have to be sold somewhere...

A land tax is a good way to generate inflation and make people overall poorer, except the rich who just increase prices. See it now?

It is the same problem with VAT. High VAT taxes consumers proportionally much more than wealthy people.

These are the models that didn't work in Europe - they made the tax systems reach always deeper into the pockets of income earners, yet it produced always more and more superrich people while pushing down upper and middle classes. A recipe for disaster.

Property tax pushing rent up? ?

There are presently much property being left idle due to speculation. Should tax be imposed, they would be placed in the market seeking renters.

What do you think would happen when supply increase while demand remains the same? Econs 101.

Is there a high number of properties or land left idle for speculation in the West? How do you compare?

Edited March 11, 2015 by trogers