baboon Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 ^^ Says the poster who has previously stated he does not believe in freedom of speech. Forgive us for doubting your credibility... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucky11 Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 ^^ Says the poster who has previously stated he does not believe in freedom of speech. Forgive us for doubting your credibility... I still don't - what in my post makes you think that I have changed my mind on this. If it was to do with my comment about the DM then you clearly 'don't get' sarcasm!! Good memory BTW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baboon Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 ^^ Says the poster who has previously stated he does not believe in freedom of speech. Forgive us for doubting your credibility... I still don't - what in my post makes you think that I have changed my mind on this. If it was to do with my comment about the DM then you clearly 'don't get' sarcasm!! Good memory BTW. Thankyou. No, nothing to do with the 'Newspaper' that previously supported Hitler, just reminding the readership of your opposition to freedom of speech, even as you make use of yours to continue to opine on here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rametindallas Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Point 1, incompetence does not rule out malicious intent. Points 2, 3, 4, so you would have me believe the CIA and US military have stayed on the sidelines and have not worked through intermediaries/proxies. Point 5, the number of recruits to radical Islam can be directly connected to increased military intervention into Islamic countries by the US. Nice try, but you should go on Wikipedia and type in governments overthrown by the US CIA. Several have been Australian governments. The CIA is deeply embedded in the Thai army and the US DEA is deeply embedded in the Royal Thai Police. The Thai government cannot make a phone call without the NSA recording it. Prayut would not be in power now if not for the tacit approval of the CIA. The CIA is independent of the US government despite appearance to the contrary. The CIA is the tail, wagging the dog (US government). Whatever the US shouts out loud is usually a ruse and distraction from what is really happening. You are a disciple of the fringe right wing nutter Ron Paul. As such you see conspiracies everywhere, even when there are none. You give the CIA far more influence and power than it has. The reality is that the CIA has been asleep at the wheel for the past 25+ years missing most of the worlds big changes. The CIA still doesn't have a good grasp of SE Asia and it is other US agencies who provide the valuable information to the US government now. The CIA is not "deeply embedded" in the Thai military, however Thai military officers who have trained and studied in the USA have good relations with the US military, just as those officers who have trained in the UK do. The Australian intelligence services are the go to organization in Thailand and have been for some time. The CIA misinterpreted the political uprisings in North Africa, did not comprehend the extent of anger against Morsi, despite multiple warnings from the US military intelligence community who had ties to the Egyptian military, and it even ignored the warnings from Israel. The rise in radical Islam cannot be blamed on the USA. That is a cop out. When Marc Lepine massacred 20+ women 25 years ago at the Uof M, he was the product of an Algerian parent and an Algerian based upbringing. He was not a jihadist. When the Islamic convert ran down the Canadian soldier last year, it was not because of the USA. When the 1/2 Libyan jihadist murdered the Canadian soldier at the war memorial and then attacked parliament, it was not because of the USA. When the bombers attacked the Madrid subway it was not because of the USA, and when the fundamentalists attacked Hebdo Charlie and the jewish grocery store in Paris it was not because of the USA, and when the nutter went on a rampage in Sydney, it was not because of the USA. However, what they all had in common was a lengthy criminal record and refusal to accept the local culture. The NSA does not record Thai telephone communications in Thailand. Almost all data collected in Thailand and SE Asia will have Australian or New Zealand involvement. That is their responsibility under the 5 Eyes intelligence data gathering agreement. Canada intercepts and monitors US domestic calls because the US is forbidden from doing so. If and when there are domestic intercepts, that is the responsibility of the FBI, not the NSA and not the CIA. The myth that some in Thailand and others like to believe is that the USA is a big lumbering giant spying on everyone. While it does spy, much of its international data is provided courtesy of the UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Ever wonder why Australia and Canada have multi billion dollar state of the art electronic data collection systems not justified by their own national needs? How ignorant. The Libertarian Party are square in between the Republicans and the Democrats. They are for the government spending to remain within its budget and to stay out of peoples personal lives. They also condemn foreign adventurism/meddling and foreign wars. If you call that 'nutter', I am proud of the title. Just because you are ignorant about the activities of the US intelligence agencies doesn't mean it's not so. You too lazy/refuse to go on the WWW and educate yourself, also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ggt Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Prayut's frustration should be the least of the US administration's concern. In fact...Thailand and Prayut ARE actually the least of the US administration's concerns...does not make the top 100 list... This brouhaha is a local Thai issue and does not see the light of day in the US... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckamuck Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Democracy worked so well in Iraq and Libya. What's wrong with the one size fist all concept? Was that a Freudian slip? One size fists all definitely describes American foreign policy in the last few decades. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baboon Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Prayut's frustration should be the least of the US administration's concern. In fact...Thailand and Prayut ARE actually the least of the US administration's concerns...does not make the top 100 list... This brouhaha is a local Thai issue and does not see the light of day in the US... Quite. I don't understand why some on here consider Thailand of a great deal more important than, say, Poland or Turkmenistan. Friends are always better than enemies, but have it your way, you know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rancid Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 If you read the Wikileaks, you will see the USA Embassy knows a lot more than the average Thai Visa poster that has been just reading The Nation. You see, there is no free press in Thailand and you are only reading what they want you to read. Sad but true. The material that is blocked or banned has been read by Washington. You actually believe the US has free press? You used to, you don't any more. Just five corporations own the entire US media, now have a look at who the owners of those corporations really are. Then come back and explain about free press. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rametindallas Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 the America bashers are often quite right on the petty facts. but i have to wonder what the world would be like if the USA, however arrogant and misguided it can be, always minded its own business -- let's say going back to 1917 and even up to now. sometimes I wish the USA WOULD bow out and let "the rest" try to sort things out. I am sure then we'd then be hating "the rest". You are absolutely correct that the US does/has done some amazing things in the world from saving the democracies from totalitarianism, feeding the world's hungry, first to arrive at a natural disaster to render aid, being a refuge for those fleeing persecution, creating life-saving drugs, etc. but there is the 10% that is done by the shadow government (which has come to light through Wikileaks and Snowden) which spoils their reputation. The US is not the same entity it was when dough-boys went to Europe to fight the Kaiser or to fight the Nazis/Fascists. The US SHOULD bow out from its interfering ways and wait to be INVITED before getting involved. This would go a long way towards bring peace to the Middle East and bring some much-needed good will to the US. It may also let the world know the importance of US power when used judiciously. The US needs to mind its own business and let Thailand mind theirs. Whatever government controls Thailand should be of no importance to the US's citizens and, therefore. to the US government. How many totalitarian governments, which are worse than Thailand, does the US have normal relations with? Answer: many. Why pick on Thailand? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttthailand Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 America trying to impose it's idea of democracy around the world has been the direct cause of tens of thousands of deaths. Best they keep their hanging chad, electoral college, richest lobby group wins style of democracy to themselves. yes, I agree ... And if America did not get involved it would not be tens of thousands but millions.... Damed if you do damed if you don't . I think America should just act like other countries and take take take and screw everyone else. Let everyone else fight their own battles ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rametindallas Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 The US was instrumental in the success of 'The Arab Spring' which saw the downfall of a stable Mubarak government in Egypt that was replaced by a more repressive military regime, was responsible for the overthrow of the stable Gaddafi government in Libya that was replaced by 6 (six) different warring factions. Destabilized the once-stable government of Ali Abdullah Saleh in Yemen so that is was overthrown by Shia militants this past January. Is currently destabilizing the government of Bashar al-Asad in Syria by supplying arms to non-government militia (much of which is funneled to ISIS). Has overthrown the stable government of Saddam Hussain in Iraq and left an unstable government incapable of stopping sectarian violence and which is, even now, being taken over by ISIS. None of these government were nice or democratic. What they all had in common was stability and their people didn't face violence in their daily lives. IMO, none of the citizens of any of these countries are better for American intervention/adventurism and citizens of the US have paid through the nose for the privilege of having the World hate us and the rise of Islamic radicals. The West will further suffer when these radicals return to their home countries in the West. Thailand should be proud and worried at the same time that the US isn't happy with them. I hope the bully-boy tactics of the US don't sway the current Thai government. The US will have a new administration in less than two years and one can only expect improved relations as they can't get much worse. The last two US presidents have been a fiasco for US foreign policy. Yes, Thailand does not, at the moment, have democracy but it does have stability and a calm, peaceful environment for the people to do their business and better their lives. The current government has sworn to and is preparing to return to Thai people a new constitution that will insure a democracy that, hopefully, can't be twisted into something perverted as Dr. Thaksin did. Sometimes the leaders of the US behave as spoiled children: they want what they want and they want it now and to hell what anyone else's feeling is. Thank you Mr Chambamberlain! How is it you have enough education to be able to string so many sentences together and not have enough brains to read up and understand history.? "What they all had in common was stability and their people didn't face violence in their daily lives". Such drivel, its unbelievable. Do you really think Thai people enjoy (or are "happy") being crushed under a military jackboot with no recourse to free speech, etc and the US should stop promoting democracy because of the idiots in charge here at the moment. Please go and live in North Korea and feel as happy as you like. Do you really think Thai people enjoy (or are "happy") being crushed under a military jackboot with no recourse to free speech, Hyperbolic, much? Most people, not just Thais, are not interested in political speech and are not 'crushed under the military jackboot' by that restriction. Stability and a peaceful environment are not to be underestimated. If you don't believe that, go to a citizen of any of those countries that I listed, where the US has 'freed' them of their totalitarian but stable government, and ask them what living in turmoil and daily violence is like. I would rather live in a totalitarian government with peace and the ability to improve my life than in a war-torn one. Name even one of the countries I listed where the people are better off than before US intervention. Let me frame the question another way. What government would you like for the US to install in Thailand? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucky11 Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 ^^ Says the poster who has previously stated he does not believe in freedom of speech. Forgive us for doubting your credibility... I still don't - what in my post makes you think that I have changed my mind on this. If it was to do with my comment about the DM then you clearly 'don't get' sarcasm!! Good memory BTW. Thankyou. No, nothing to do with the 'Newspaper' that previously supported Hitler, just reminding the readership of your opposition to freedom of speech, even as you make use of yours to continue to opine on here... You don't need freedom of speech to write (or say something) so I haven't a clue as to what you are on about!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricardo Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Thank you Mr Chambamberlain!How is it you have enough education to be able to string so many sentences together and not have enough brains to read up and understand history.? "What they all had in common was stability and their people didn't face violence in their daily lives". Such drivel, its unbelievable. Do you really think Thai people enjoy (or are "happy") being crushed under a military jackboot with no recourse to free speech, etc and the US should stop promoting democracy because of the idiots in charge here at the moment. Please go and live in North Korea and feel as happy as you like. Who is "Mr Chambamberlain", oh brainy & educated one ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gonsalviz Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 If you read the Wikileaks, you will see the USA Embassy knows a lot more than the average Thai Visa poster that has been just reading The Nation. You see, there is no free press in Thailand and you are only reading what they want you to read. Sad but true. The material that is blocked or banned has been read by Washington. There's no free press in the US either. Unless you call 'free press' saying whatever their opinion is rather than the news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbthailand Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 If you read the Wikileaks, you will see the USA Embassy knows a lot more than the average Thai Visa poster that has been just reading The Nation. You see, there is no free press in Thailand and you are only reading what they want you to read. Sad but true. The material that is blocked or banned has been read by Washington. There's no free press in the US either. Unless you call 'free press' saying whatever their opinion is rather than the news. There is a lot of free press in the USA. His point about censorship and self-censorship in Thailand is quite valid. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plutojames88 Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 [sigh] This pompous editorial from The Nation has done an admirable job attempting to set a world record in rhetological fallacies used in a 600 word piece. But sifting through all the red herrings, straw man arguments, false equivalences, appeals to spite, ad hoc rescues, ad hominem attacks, false dilemmas, and circular logic (and for old times sake, two wrongs make a right), it is clear that the editorial board is suffering from either profound ignorance or willful ignorance (I suspect the latter) on the supposed role the US plays in Thailands current sociopolitical misadventure. So, now its my time to drop some knowledge on you. Brace yourselves. #1 Thailands beloved institution of the monarchy would never have survived the advance of communism in Southeast Asia without the help of the United States. Whether the US involvement in Thailand was for its own interests or to be altruistic is irrelevant. We were your friend of your country and monarchy then, and we still are now. Stop and really think about that for a <deleted> minute. #2 Twelve coups détat and 19 out of 20 constitutions written by generals since 1932 prove that the militarynot politicians, and certainly not democracyare the culprit for Thailands never-ending governmental malaise. The current junta is no different. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss never rang truer. #3 Shifting attention to the US decision to scale back diplomatic ties until martial law is rescinded, human rights are restored, and free elections are held once again, as if the US is attempting to bully the average Thai person is a disingenuous cover for the elites own failings in understanding what their role ought to be in a modern Thailand. The US is not intervening in Thailands affairs, period. That said, I continue to believe in the potential of Thailand and its people. My country is a true friend of Thailand, despite our failings in dealing with many others, which I acknowledge. But, attacking the stance of the American government, as if we are constantly bad-mouthing ordinary Thais, their honor and their unique character, is absolute out of line and just another case of smoke and mirrors on the part of the junta, the elite, those who stand to gain from suppressing a free society, and those sheep who choose to cast their lot with such people. Shame on The Nation for this rubbish. Though I found your post refreshing to the people here who cowardly display Stockholm Syndrome and surrender meekly to domination....your last point might require some further observations. The Nation did incredibly post some daring assessments up until a month ago. I think the people who wrote those mysteriously might have suddenly seen the light . The big Boss of Thailand just the other day expressed a penchant for walls and firing squads that up until now he is controlling with weekly speeches and polls. Let us hope he has a safe trip in the US and nothing unexpected occurs. Though I would be happy to see some Thai Citizens living in the Freedom of the United States ask him a few questions. I sold my property and have cashed in my investments in Thailand as I see what I think to be an increasing Nationalist - xenophobic Thailand where rules could suddenly manifest overnight. This PM is erratic and displays his disdain to us . The most famous was the bikini comment on the murder and rape of a British Girl. I think America knows well this PM has elected himself for keeps and they have walked away for now knowing democracy in this region is a problem. Sometimes it's better to let a wayward sheep be torn apart by wolves ( insert China - Russia) and let the others in the flock witness it - than to continuously bother giving it your love and labour to nurture it. Thailand has for many decades and centuries placed institutions ahead of its people's better future. Let them be devoured externally and internally by their own inequality and willingness to bow down to them . And the old saying "" it's better to die on your feet than to live on your Knees "" might take hold here when Yingluck goes to jail.... I for one am not going to bank on stability of this place once that does. America walking away is just one of many omens that freedoms here are dwindling. The guys at the Nation ( and girls) perhaps know they have choices . And choose not to go missing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plutojames88 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 He is certainly not improving his credentials threatening to execute reporters ......I wonder how the press there (US) will treat him.? He is in for a big wake up call .....not to mention sanctions by years end Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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