LITUK - How good is knowledge?

[bobrussell]

If your friend has temporary leave to remain and has lost her partner it is not necessary now (nor under the old rules) to meet the Life in the UK rules. KoLL is the combination of LiTUK and the B1 requirement therefore B1 is not required now and was not part of the old rules!

If the surviving partner is in severe financial trouble then the fee may be waived as well!

[steady]

I would like to disagree with a little bit of 7x7's earlier post. It depends on your family circumstances as to whether living in Thailand is cheaper than the UK. In our circumstance (wife and 3 school age children) the UK is lots cheaper than Thailand after we consider school fees, medical insurance, school uniforms and general living costs in Thailand. In the UK I get the additional help with child benefit and child tax credits without school or medical insurance costs and school uniforms are cheaper. All the children are British which helps. The wife finds the UK so fair compared to Thailand that any thoughts of her returning to stay in Thailand left a long time ago.

The disagreement between Durhamboy and 7x7 about where is the easier place to live leaves me feeling that both of you could argue your case to be right. Everything 7x7 has written seems correct to me and when I lived in Thailand I met all of the (everchanging) rules. I remember that I was always jumping through one hoop or another or paying extra to make problems go away. Yet when I got used to the system it wasn't too difficult at all and on paper it certainly appears easier, but like many things in Thailand, maybe it's an illusion. I think the one thing that the UK gives is certainty. I never ever felt that I was safe in Thailand for any length of time because of the annual hoop jumping......but I remained there for 10 years. Now we are in the UK the wife has ILR and we are not afraid to look further into the future.

Both the wife and me came to the UK making the passing of all tests required for all levels to citizenship our priority. It has caused me many a headache because the wife is much more driven than me. I think that we've done enough work and she wants to keep going. But in a couple of months she will have her English at the required level for citizenship which we will apply for in September (when her 3 years are up). If I was to proffer any suggestion then it would be that when you come to the UK there must be a commitment to pass all the government tests and be prepared to put in any amount of work necessary. The benefit is that in the future you can live a settled and content life.

[wooloomooloo]

The benefit is that in the future you can live a settled and content life.

... and, with the additional security of both Thai and British passports, our spouses can travel back and forth for as long as they like until their hearts are content

[bobrussell]

i said it was SET (M) for bereaved partners. Quite correctly 7by7 states it is SET (O)!

A brilliantly designed document! Looks frighteningly difficult For a bereaved partner thankfully very few sections need to be completed and the main documents required are the death certificate and joint name bills or similar!

Edited April 15, 2015 by bobrussell

[durhamboy]

7by7 - firstly, thanks for the info regarding bereaved partners.

Regarding Thailand v UK visa problems I think that you make some very good points about living long-term in Thailand. Obviously a marriage is hopefully long-term so the points you made are very valid. However, I think that in doing so you have drifted away from what I originally said.

You challenged me because I said "It is a hell of a lot easier for a couple to go and live "indefinitely" in Thailand than for the couple to live in the UK." The key words being "go" and ""indefinitely"" :-

"go" - under the UK system you cannot just go to the UK without first passing through all the hoops. Thailand you can go with the minimum of formalities. Surely you would accept that it is easier for a couple to be together in Thailand than the UK?

""indefinitely"" - I put this in quotes in my original statement. You can live indefinitely in both countries. The UK is more specific about that as it offers Indefinite Leave to Remain (provided of course you pass LITUK & B1 English). Thailand offers very restricted PR which I agree is very difficult to obtain. Instead it offers an annual renewable visa. It has been renewing these visas for many years so, in effect, the visa is "indefinite".

Btw, I really don't know how you can say that Peejay's visa problem is not about his wife's English. She failed KET twice (see his post of 13th April in that topic). If she had passed (or had not been a victim of the BULATS withdrawal) they would probably be in the UK now with a settlement visa.

In my opinion, the UK system is devisive in that it stops families from being together. Thailand's system has its faults but it does not split families up.

[7by7]

Except, of course, the Thai system can and does split families up!

Take the income requirement; it is not as straight forward as you made out earlier.

You quoted "£8000 in a bank account or annual income of £9600 or combination of both." but it is, of course, not that at all. In fact it is

• Security deposit of THB 400,000 in a Thai Bank Account for at least 2 months prior to the visa application; or
• Monthly income of at least THB 40,000 (THB 480,000 p.a.). A letter from the foreigner embassy has to be shown to verify this income; or
• Combination of the Thai bank account and yearly income with the total of 400,000 THB.
• (Source)

(BTW, I was wrong on one point earlier; you do not have to show these amounts when doing your 90 day report, only when you renew your marriage visa once a year. Unless you leave Thailand during that year, when you have to get a new marriage visa on your return.)

What the above amounts are in Sterling of course depends on the exchange rate at the time.

When I first went to Thailand 15 years ago the exchange rate was around 75 baht to the pound; so 40,000 baht a month would equal about £533.

The exchange rate has fluctuated considerably since then, and is now around 47 baht to the pound, so at that rate the Sterling income required is £836 pm.

For those on a fixed income, such as a pension, which is probably the majority, these fluctuations can be disastrous as they could mean the income requirement is no longer met and they have to leave the Kingdom! I can recall posts from members in other parts of TV in the past expressing just that concern.

Also, although this required income has not changed for as long as I can recall, who knows what will happen in the future?

Couples in the UK, once they have ILR, no longer have such worries. Couples in Thailand will have these worries for the entity of their lives; unless they are one of the lucky 100 per year to be granted PR.

A Thai spouse of a Brit in the UK may have a few more 'hoops to jump through' initially than a British spouse of a Thai living in Thailand and the visas etc. may be more expensive; but after 5 years, let's say 6 to allow for processing times, they can be a British citizen with the full rights of same.

For the vast majority of British spouse of a Thai living in Thailand that will never happen, and they will have to 'jump through the hoops' each and every year until they die.

Plus, as said before, if their Thai spouse dies first then they will either have to switch to a retirement or other type of visa, assuming they can meet the requirements, or leave. Even if the British spouse of a Thai dies the day they arrive in the UK, the Thai can apply to remain in the UK and will almost certainly be granted ILR.

Notice I have used 'spouse' instead of 'partner.' This is because Thailand does not recognise same sex marriages or civil partnerships; so, unlike the UK, same sex couples cannot apply under the marriage visa rules. Also, unlike the UK, I understand that unmarried partners also cannot apply under these rules. They would have to apply for a retirement visa or other type and meet the tougher requirements for that.

Note, I have used and linked to a commercial site as my source as the information there was easier to find and is presented in an easier to read format than on official Thai MFA sites. I think the information is accurate, but cannot guarantee that accuracy.

Edited April 15, 2015 by 7by7

[durhamboy]

Sorry 7by7 is this long winded analysis just your way of agreeing with me?

I say this because :-

1. Bank - THB400,000 is about £8,000

2. Income - THB480,000 is about £9,600

I used an approx. exchange rate of 50. Btw, I didn't include the exchange rate ripoff of the UK SV where you can only pay in dollars which adds about 8% to the visa cost. Neither did I include the costs and tuition of taking the English test. That one cost me £500.

I have also heard from a number of people that you can just put the THB400k in for 1 day and take it out via a lawyer.

The rest of what you have put is mostly concerning staying long-term and which I previously conceded to you were very valid points.

You are fast becoming the man that can't take yes for an answer!

Btw, can you give me one example where the Thai system has prevented newly wed spouses living together in Thailand?

Edited April 15, 2015 by durhamboy

[7by7]

Durhamboy, I have never denied that going from initial visa to UK ILR is expensive; indeed I did earlier say that it would take a Brit in Thailand over 30 years to pay the equivalent in Thai visa fees; but unlke the UK where it all stops after 5 years, in Thailand the Brit would have to continue paying for the rest of his life.

He would also have to satisfy the financial requirement every year for the rest of his life, not just three times over 5 years. Hoping during all that time that currency fluctuations and/or changes to the rules mean that he can't do so any more.

I have also heard from a number of people that you can just put the THB400k in for 1 day and take it out via a lawyer.

Not according to Siam Legal

Supporting documents as proof of the security deposit in a Thai bank are as follows:
•Updated bank book or passbook
•Bank letter stating that the money had been deposited to the account from an overseas source for not less than 2 months.

You may be fortunate enough to have someone from outside Thailand willing to lend you that sort of money every year for two months, most of us are not.

I grant you that some people will be lucky enough to have that much cash to keep in the bank indefinitely; but not all of us.

Btw, can you give me one example where the Thai system has prevented newly wed spouses living together in Thailand?

Yes, my wife and I.

When we married our first thought was to live in Thailand, for a variety of reasons which are not relevant to this conversation.

Having no qualifications which would allow me to obtain a work permit, the only alternative was a marriage visa. But I had no job in Thailand nor any realistic chance of legally getting one, no unearned income and not enough savings in the bank. There was no way that I could have met the requirements for a Thai marriage visa.

So the only way we could be together was to live in the UK.

You said earlier "It is a hell of a lot easier for a couple to go and live "indefinitely" in Thailand than for the couple to live in the UK." I think I have shown that in many ways, especially in what I can only refer to as 'security of tenure' that it isn't.

But I am not, as you seem to think, saying that either system is perfect, neither are.

What I am saying is that both systems have requirements which are difficult, if not impossible, for some to meet.

Before you mention it; yes, the present financial requirement for UK settlement is unfair and unreasonable; and I am on record in numerous topics as saying so. I am also on record as saying that the practice of charging for UK visas in USD is ridiculous and a rip off way of extracting even more money from applicants.

I have every sympathy for people separated because although they can adequately support and accommodate themselves in the UK, they do not meet the arbitrary minimum financial requirement set by the British government; ditto for Thailand.

But, to be honest, I fail to see why anyone would have any real difficulties in satisfying Koll; especially as they now have five years in which to do so.

Unless they are incapable studying for it due to disability or age; in which case they are exempt.

From Immigration statistics July to September 2014

10. Settlement

10.2 Key facts

In the year ending September 2014, the number of people granted permission to stay permanently fell by 30% (-46,082) to 107,565. The decrease was accounted for by falls in work-related (-18,255), family-related (-21,539) and asylum-related grants (-8,727). Other grants increased by 2,439.

Now I grant you that some of those 107,565 people would have been exempt from KoLL for one reason or another; but most would have had to satisfy it.

Even the native English speakers who are exempt from the B1 speaking and listening test still have to pass the LitUK test.

Now you may say, again, that Thais are a special case as not only do they have to learn a new language, but a new alphabet as well.

According to the Migration Observatory, India is the most common country of birth among non EEA foreign born UK residents.

Though this article from the Telegraph says that China has now taken the number one spot, relegating India to second place.

As I am sure you know, both China and India use a different alphabet.

Yet immigrants from those countries, as well as others which do not use the Roman alphabet, manage to study for and satisfy KoLL.

As do most Thais.

Edited April 15, 2015 by 7by7

[bobrussell]

The argument regarding the ease of remaining in the UK v's Thailand is like comparing apples and pears!

Easier, cheaper and perhaps less stressful to remain in Thailand but very insecure and subject to whims of future governments changing rules including required income.

The UK tougher, more expensive and shedloads of stress but once through the system almost totally secure and for life!

Westerners living in Thailand are still glorified visitors!

The majority of people taking the LitUK test with my sister-in-law were from Afghanistan and Bangladesh. Full to the rafters but only one other Thai.

Apples and pears!!

Edited April 15, 2015 by bobrussell

[wooloomooloo]

Westerners living in Thailand are still glorified visitors!

Great excitement in the Wooloo household on Tuesday when my wife's first poll card turned up. We're in LOS on polling day, 7 May, but have applied for postal votes.

I wouldn't have bothered myself but can't deny my wife her wish, and I'll vote as well. No glorified visitors here.

[durhamboy]

7by7 - frankly you've lost me a bit with your ramblings.

I'll just make one point - you and your wife were not prevented from being together in Thailand. You no doubt had a free 30 day tourist visa when you arrived which was almost certainly extendable. Some married Thais (eg Peejay's case) cannot even get that for the UK. Also there are other ways of staying in Thailand e.g. a non-O immigration visa.

Unless you want to continue this argument I think in summary we agree it is initially harder to live in the UK but once ILR is achieved then from that point on it becomes harder to live in Thailand. That is what I said all along so we actually agree. Now can you please take yes for an answer?

[7by7]

Since you have changed your mind from what you said at first

It is a hell of a lot easier for a couple to go and live "indefinitely" in Thailand than for the couple to live in the UK.

to

I think in summary we agree it is initially harder to live in the UK but once ILR is achieved then from that point on it becomes harder to live in Thailand. That is what I said all along so we actually agree.

that we do now agree on the essential point that your statement in the 13th April quote was wrong.

[durhamboy]

No I haven't changed my mind from what I said initially. Because of your never ending rambling on and on about this I explained fully what I meant in one of my posts above i.e. what I meant by "go" and ""indefinitely"". I did not and have not changed my mind although I have conceded that you made some good points about staying more than 5 years in Thailand. You seem desperate to claim some sort of victory on this. If you like then I'll say that when it comes to living in Thailand for more than 5 years then you win. Ok satisfied? If you still want to continue this then please do so by PM. Thank you.