Cherchez la femme / Look for the woman?

[Gecko123]

"Is there a correlation between the sex industry and the extreme negativity about Thailand and Thais?"

Of course there is. Many guys come here for the cheap young women. That doesn't mean they choose to fly so far, choose to pussyfoot around Thai sensibilities, and it doesn't mean they choose to come for 90 reports or a thousand other things.

Given the choice I imagine most guys who come for the girls would prefer not to go so far or have to deal with Thainess when all they want to do is down some beer and empty their sack into some 19 year old farmer's daughter.

So they have to put up with an awful lot of trouble and inconvenience just to get what they are here for.

Sometimes life just isn't fair.

Squeegee:

You get big time points for addressing the central question of my post.

I had just about given up, it being Songkran and all.

I have had more luck trying to make eye contact with a farang in Lotus than staying on topic on this thread. A bit like herding cats.

Your directness is refreshing, and I like your post.

[buhi]

Twenty years married to my Thai wife, want the F word?

[sipi]

The expats I meet in Thailand are as pleasant as the expats I meet elsewhere, including Australia. There are some on TVF who generally are an exception.

Are there not women who break hearts worldwide?

Personally I would sooner trust a working girl from Thailand than from South America, or Europe, or Australia, or....

[WitawatWatawit]

#gecko

On Colin - I would suggest his encounter was a very rare case. I've been in the Thai social security system for almost 20 years and visited many different hospitals (including public) for over 26 years, but never once had so much as a sideways glance.

As for Costa and his contradictions. I think he has what I call "bouncing ball" moments - perhaps it happens every time he writes . Up one moment, down the next - happy with life one moment, utterly pisssed off the next. Happens to all of us - it's just more extreme here, perhaps.

...

So, the sex industry and the disgruntled among us. Are you talking about the sex industry per se? Or the "wife/mate" industry? Because I think we expats look at two distinct areas - unlike sex tourists.

If the latter, then probably no expat is more disappointed than the ones who come here to find a mate. They come in different shades - there's the FIFOs, the short termers, the short/long termers, and the long termers. Whatever their situation, the one common theme is that a significant proportion (impossible to say whether large or small) of each group will find disappointment rather than a lifelong mate. I can't commnt at all about FIFOs as I never meet any. Most of my contacts are with long term expats. And most seem to be relatively happy - found a good mate, decided they are going to stay here for the long term and therefore become more accepting of local ways. (There are quite a number of retirees around me - but I don't know many very well as they seem on a social level to be more connected to the bar scene, which I no longer am.)

I don't find many people using the sex industry as an excuse to get pisssed off with the country. The sex industry is what it is - we all know it's a rip off and full of pitfalls, and we're just a bunch of mugs. I don't recall many posts with the sex industry as the actual central theme of a complaint about Thailand and Thai ways (only in a figurative sense). No, I think it's those with expectations of finding an acceptable mate. Trink once referred to the Thai wife supermarket, and I had to laugh. But I also recalled an incident involving Jimmy Barnes of Cold Chisel, who has a Thai wife. He was in the Northern Territory and a publican said to him, "oh, your wife is Thai - I've been meaning to get me one of those." Jimmy decked him. So, do those two points tell you anything? Wife supermarket? But with no refund if the goods are deficient? But trapped while trying to do the right thing? Not sure when to cut losses and pull out? Lots of reasons for disgruntlement there. I expect the "grow a pair" brigade will have something to say about that, but I deal in reality, so I don't care what they say.

And ... then there's a whole mess of disgruntlement in day-to-day living. I find almost every day there's a new thing that pissses me off that should not occur if this country was run right. (Get my point with that sentence? LOL) No need for further comment - enough is already said.

Back to you, mate.

Wit.

[Gecko123]

#sipi:

I think you are absolutely correct sipi that there are "love rats" all over the world, who take advantage of foreigners hoping to find love/romance while abroad.

#witawat & #sipi:

I think the thing which differentiates Thailand from most other countries is that it's sex tourism industry attracts foreigners in greater numbers than many other countries, so the number of men who interact with prostitutes here is probably higher than in many other countries. I also think that Thai women, in comparison to women from many other countries, are unusually skilled in the power of seduction and convincing/deceiving their partners that they have genuine feelings for them. Because of that ability to deceive or mislead a partner, it is perfectly understandable that many guys feel tremendous anger and bitterness, especially when money is lost, when they realize that they have been deceived. I will readily acknowledge that I know what this is like from personal experience.

When I read some of the posts on TVF that express intense dislike, mistrust and contempt for Thais, I always ask myself how that person got to that "place" where they came to feel that way. The only explanation I can come up with is that someone has been emotionally hurt or disappointed, but I am honestly asking if others have other explanations which I might be failing to consider. Again, I am not talking about people who have minor gripes and criticisms of Thailand, but people who have powerfully negative feelings about Thailand and Thais.

[MaeJoMTB]

When I read some of the posts on TVF that express intense dislike, mistrust and contempt for Thais, I always ask myself how that person got to that "place" where they came to feel that way. The only explanation I can come up with is that someone has been emotionally hurt or disappointed, but I am honestly asking if others have other explanations which I might be failing to consider. Again, I am not talking about people who have minor gripes and criticisms of Thailand, but people who have powerfully negative feelings about Thailand and Thais.

Anyone who reaches age 50 without significant emotional hurt or disappointment is probably psychotic (or a saint).

[WitawatWatawit]

Feelings of despair, hopelessness, impotence, combined with a lot of general day-to-day frustration?

I think some people end up with feelings of inadequacy - and impotence. Whether Thai women are any more "skilled" at taking advantage is debatable. So I wonder instead if the preconception of Thailand and Thai women (Asian women in general, perhaps) in the foreigner's mind is more to blame - that is, they come to Thailand in the belief that they can find a compliant wife, someone of less education and experience than them and therefore subservient, pliable etc, but encounter instead an unfamiliar set of circumstances that render them impotent and feeling inadequate as a man. Kind of out-smarted and unable to control anything around them.

One of the worst things I find here is that feeling of not being in control - by that I don't mean alpha male horseshit. I mean just simple daily goings on, where you're supposed to accept being shunted back into a secondary role because of "Thainess" when you should be organising things, getting things done, moving things along. Am I making sense?

Edit: Sorry, adding to my last sentence -- And seeing it all going to hell in a handbag when you could have prevented it if it weren't for "Thainess".

Edited April 13, 2015 by WitawatWatawit

[Gecko123]

Feelings of despair, hopelessness, impotence, combined with a lot of general day-to-day frustration?

I think some people end up with feelings of inadequacy - and impotence. Whether Thai women are any more "skilled" at taking advantage is debatable. So I wonder instead if the preconception of Thailand and Thai women (Asian women in general, perhaps) in the foreigner's mind is more to blame - that is, they come to Thailand in the belief that they can find a compliant wife, someone of less education and experience than them and therefore subservient, pliable etc, but encounter instead an unfamiliar set of circumstances that render them impotent and feeling inadequate as a man. Kind of out-smarted and unable to control anything around them.

One of the worst things I find here is that feeling of not being in control - by that I don't mean alpha male horseshit. I mean just simple daily goings on, where you're supposed to accept being shunted back into a secondary role because of "Thainess" when you should be organising things, getting things done, moving things along. Am I making sense?

Edit: Sorry, adding to my last sentence -- And seeing it all going to hell in a handbag when you could have prevented it if it weren't for "Thainess".

I think I understand where you are coming from when you question how "skilled" Thai women are at taking advantage of foreign men. Much of this "skill" may simply be due to foreigners misreading nonverbal flirting/mating signals and reading into/filling in gaps when a language barrier exists. In the sense that Thai women probably aren't any more "skilled" at getting what they want out of Thai men than, say, American women are in getting what they want out of American men, I agree with you.

But, when deception is in play, at some point the Thai woman has to realize that the foreign guy is misreading the situation, and she is able to feign genuine romantic sentiment in a way in which a foreign guy has difficulty recognizing as insincere. Perhaps some might argue that if this is being done out of financial desperation, it has nothing to do with "skill." But I still prefer to think of it as a skill, even if it is little more than acting: batting of eyes, crying on cue, pouting, laughing at unfunny jokes, pretending to be attracted to bald heads or a pot belly.

Obviously with the advent of the internet, the sophistication and awareness of foreign guys about the bar scene has changed a lot in the last 20 years, but that doesn't mean guys aren't still being seduced by bar girls. The 'this time it's different,' or 'I've found a diamond in the rough,' or 'I'm smarter than the rest of these other coots' mentality is still very much alive and well. Maybe the number of guys marrying Thai women is slowing down, but I haven't noticed it.

It's true that you don't very often hear someone saying "I hate Thailand because my ex-wife screwed me over." But on the other hand being taken advantage of or being made a fool of isn't something a lot of guys enjoy admitting to themselves, much less broadcasting to a room full of guys. That's part of the reason I think the anger and resentment sometimes morphs into a generalized anger and resentment directed generally towards Thailand, rather than being directed towards an ex-wife, for example.

I can also relate to the feeling of feeling mislead. Not in a romantic context, but in an everyday sense such as a foreigner who might assume that they would be greeted and welcomed with a broad smile forever after in their town, and feel disappointment when the reception becomes quite ordinary shortly after they arrive.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Gecko123

[sipi]

A wholesome discussion and enjoyable to read.

Yes MJMTB, anyone who gets to 50 without having their toes stepped on in any culture must be totally insulated. It is how we, as men deal with it.

And Wit. Absolutely, a lot of us are healthy happy wealthy men who Chose to marry Thais. I have absolutely no regrets.

When I ask someone I know who is coming to Thailand why they are coming, sex is usually the last thing I hear. You can pick up a lady for the right price anywhere. However I live in a relatively closed circle.

[Crazy chef 1]

One thing you should not forget is that Thai women are STILL WOMAN...where western woman try to be better males...don't get me wrong Thai women still directing their partners but more subservient...me for example I never had an serious argue with my wife...sometimes I draw back sometimes she but usually we discuss it and the final decision is made by the one for whom it is most important...