Buying An Apartment Or A Condo

[Krungbin]

I am toying with the idea of buying an apartment I intend to occupy.

I roughly know the area of Bangkok I prefer, but what criteria should I very seriously consider when making a choice? (apart from general aspect of the property, maintenance of the building, the potential noise nuisances, and... the electricity bill). Thanks for your advise

[backflip]

If one of your main criteria of buying a home is the electric bill, perhaps you should keep renting. Have you ever owned a home? What was your criteria in buying that home - the size of the electric bill? I'd consider the state of the building, location, and the proximity to public transportation.

[Krungbin]

If one of your main criteria of buying a home is the electric bill, perhaps you should keep renting. Have you ever owned a home? What was your criteria in buying that home - the size of the electric bill? I'd consider the state of the building, location, and the proximity to public transportation.

[Krungbin]

If one of your main criteria of buying a home is the electric bill, perhaps you should keep renting. Have you ever owned a home? What was your criteria in buying that home - the size of the electric bill? I'd consider the state of the building, location, and the proximity to public transportation.

Dear Backflip

"State of the building, location, and the proximity to public transportation" are obvious criteria. What I meant are the "hidden" criteria: key money...legal, not legal?, maintenance fee...who pays what and when?, legal recourses in case of "hidden" defects etc... Thanks for your assistance!

[percy2]

I am toying with the idea of buying an apartment I intend to occupy.

I roughly know the area of Bangkok I prefer, but what criteria should I very seriously consider when making a choice? (apart from general aspect of the property, maintenance of the building, the potential noise nuisances, and... the electricity bill). Thanks for your advise

To buy new or used is a biggie.

[Tammi]

Below is a post on the Pattaya Forum that should be helpful:

I would add:

Walk around the building. Look for cracks. Inspect perimeter drains.

Check outside toilets. Do toilets, urinals, taps and lights work? Tiles off the walls?

Swim pool furniture. Is it broken down? Is shade provided? If not, why not?

Gardens: Do plants look cared for? Lawns weeded? Drains clean? Is there garbage lying around?

Garbage disposal: How often is it collected? If there is a chute when was it last cleaned? How clean is the garbage room? Is there a smell of garbage on any floor? How often do they spray for cockroaches, etc.

Interior common areas: How clean are the floor tiles? You can usually find out by moving the flowerpots. Are the indoor plants healthy and dust free?

Security posts: Clean and tidy? Are guards efficient and courteous?

Is there a mosquito elimination program?

Are staff allowed to recycle cans, bottles, newspapers. If so, do they remove every evening? If recyclables are not removed every evening where are they kept? You might be surprised to find in the toilets and fire hose cupboards!

Are roads swept clean and free of weeds? Are kerb drains choked? Are roadside plantings beautiful?

Fire Safety: Are corridors clear of plants and ornaments? Does each floor have a fire hose? When were the fire extinguishers last checked? Do walk the emergency stairwells.

If you find too many negative things it means that manager is not doing his/her job and the management committee is not doing its. And you might want to look elsewhere for a home.

Good luck

QUOTE(sattahip @ 2006-09-03 10:20:23)

I am sorry to be brutally frank but most of the replies above are of no real value.

You can establish the quality of condo management ;

1. Ask to see the most recent audited accounts of the condominium juristic person. That is the association in Thai law which owns the structure. These accounts should be audited, though with accounting standards such as they are in Thailand, this is no absolute guarantee of accuracy. In any building catering well to expatriate owners there will be an English language copy. Use your common sense to review income and outgo, accumulated net worth, presence of reserve funds etc. Ask to see a list detailing maintenance arrears. Be careful if the developer is the major creditor or arrears are substantial/chronic.

2. Ask for a copy of the minutes of the most recent Annual General Meeting. As with the accounts, any well managed building will have these in English translation. Review this to see if key issues like financial viability, management quality, maintenance planning and the like are discussed. See also how election of board is conducted, if it is!. Many condominiums here are autocratically run by the developers as a cash cow with no real ownership input/control.

3. Ask for a copy of the insurance policy covering the building. This will likely be in Thai but check with your lawyer what is covered,who is the beneficiary, for how much and with whom. Often insurance is completely inadequate, covers only fire and is with a company even for major buildings no-one has ever heard of. Strangely such companies often pay brokerage of some substance to the "manager" which should not be done for obvious reasons re independent assessment. Thailand has many reputable brokers in Bangkok who can arrange the right policy with the financially capable insurers plus advise on coverage amount which will increase over time to cover replacement costs. Check there is 3rd party insurance also though this will be rare. Good insurance companies will also offer staff fire training.

4 See a utility bill for a condo and check the unit costs of electricity and water against those an independent householder would pay. These items should not be a "profit centre" for management.

5. Ask for a copy of the association,s land deed which of course should be in its name (e.g. "name of condo" Juristic Association). In many cases the association will own only the footprint of the building and you can have a fun park or shophouses next year on what you thought were your clubhouse grounds or gardens. This is common. One building mentioned above as an exemplar has allocated only 2.5 rai(about an acre) for its new 33 storey twin tower. Now tell me that makes sense!

6. Walk down the fire stairs as you leave. A sign of good management is that these will be completely clear, properly emergency lit etc. Check the maintenance plate in the elevators. Is the manufacturer the maintaining coy? Shoddy lift maintenance is a time bomb. Again commonsense viewing will give you an idea of overall tidiness and housekeeping quality.

All this is a bit long but based on experience. I am the Treasurer of my condominium which is, I believe, capably run by the owners. We employ our own manager and security and cleaning staff and have had most of them with us since opening 12 years ago.

We are about, with a consulting engineers assistance, to commence a full refurbishment programme which will run to millions of baht. We can face this because our owners take a real interest in the building (75%+ attended the last two AGMs) and are willing to fund transparent running and extraordinary expenses.

So any questions or brickbats- I'm ready.

[Krungbin]

Below is a post on the Pattaya Forum that should be helpful:

I would add:

Walk around the building. Look for cracks. Inspect perimeter drains.

Check outside toilets. Do toilets, urinals, taps and lights work? Tiles off the walls?

Swim pool furniture. Is it broken down? Is shade provided? If not, why not?

Gardens: Do plants look cared for? Lawns weeded? Drains clean? Is there garbage lying around?

Garbage disposal: How often is it collected? If there is a chute when was it last cleaned? How clean is the garbage room? Is there a smell of garbage on any floor? How often do they spray for cockroaches, etc.

Interior common areas: How clean are the floor tiles? You can usually find out by moving the flowerpots. Are the indoor plants healthy and dust free?

Security posts: Clean and tidy? Are guards efficient and courteous?

Is there a mosquito elimination program?

Are staff allowed to recycle cans, bottles, newspapers. If so, do they remove every evening? If recyclables are not removed every evening where are they kept? You might be surprised to find in the toilets and fire hose cupboards!

Are roads swept clean and free of weeds? Are kerb drains choked? Are roadside plantings beautiful?

Fire Safety: Are corridors clear of plants and ornaments? Does each floor have a fire hose? When were the fire extinguishers last checked? Do walk the emergency stairwells.

If you find too many negative things it means that manager is not doing his/her job and the management committee is not doing its. And you might want to look elsewhere for a home.

Good luck

QUOTE(sattahip @ 2006-09-03 10:20:23)

I am sorry to be brutally frank but most of the replies above are of no real value.

You can establish the quality of condo management ;

1. Ask to see the most recent audited accounts of the condominium juristic person. That is the association in Thai law which owns the structure. These accounts should be audited, though with accounting standards such as they are in Thailand, this is no absolute guarantee of accuracy. In any building catering well to expatriate owners there will be an English language copy. Use your common sense to review income and outgo, accumulated net worth, presence of reserve funds etc. Ask to see a list detailing maintenance arrears. Be careful if the developer is the major creditor or arrears are substantial/chronic.

2. Ask for a copy of the minutes of the most recent Annual General Meeting. As with the accounts, any well managed building will have these in English translation. Review this to see if key issues like financial viability, management quality, maintenance planning and the like are discussed. See also how election of board is conducted, if it is!. Many condominiums here are autocratically run by the developers as a cash cow with no real ownership input/control.

3. Ask for a copy of the insurance policy covering the building. This will likely be in Thai but check with your lawyer what is covered,who is the beneficiary, for how much and with whom. Often insurance is completely inadequate, covers only fire and is with a company even for major buildings no-one has ever heard of. Strangely such companies often pay brokerage of some substance to the "manager" which should not be done for obvious reasons re independent assessment. Thailand has many reputable brokers in Bangkok who can arrange the right policy with the financially capable insurers plus advise on coverage amount which will increase over time to cover replacement costs. Check there is 3rd party insurance also though this will be rare. Good insurance companies will also offer staff fire training.

4 See a utility bill for a condo and check the unit costs of electricity and water against those an independent householder would pay. These items should not be a "profit centre" for management.

5. Ask for a copy of the association,s land deed which of course should be in its name (e.g. "name of condo" Juristic Association). In many cases the association will own only the footprint of the building and you can have a fun park or shophouses next year on what you thought were your clubhouse grounds or gardens. This is common. One building mentioned above as an exemplar has allocated only 2.5 rai(about an acre) for its new 33 storey twin tower. Now tell me that makes sense!

6. Walk down the fire stairs as you leave. A sign of good management is that these will be completely clear, properly emergency lit etc. Check the maintenance plate in the elevators. Is the manufacturer the maintaining coy? Shoddy lift maintenance is a time bomb. Again commonsense viewing will give you an idea of overall tidiness and housekeeping quality.

All this is a bit long but based on experience. I am the Treasurer of my condominium which is, I believe, capably run by the owners. We employ our own manager and security and cleaning staff and have had most of them with us since opening 12 years ago.

We are about, with a consulting engineers assistance, to commence a full refurbishment programme which will run to millions of baht. We can face this because our owners take a real interest in the building (75%+ attended the last two AGMs) and are willing to fund transparent running and extraordinary expenses.

So any questions or brickbats- I'm ready.

many thanks for these very valuable info!

[naturalpoints]

Below is a post on the Pattaya Forum that should be helpful:

I would add:

Walk around the building. Look for cracks. Inspect perimeter drains.

Check outside toilets. Do toilets, urinals, taps and lights work? Tiles off the walls?

Swim pool furniture. Is it broken down? Is shade provided? If not, why not?

Gardens: Do plants look cared for? Lawns weeded? Drains clean? Is there garbage lying around?

Garbage disposal: How often is it collected? If there is a chute when was it last cleaned? How clean is the garbage room? Is there a smell of garbage on any floor? How often do they spray for cockroaches, etc.

Interior common areas: How clean are the floor tiles? You can usually find out by moving the flowerpots. Are the indoor plants healthy and dust free?

Security posts: Clean and tidy? Are guards efficient and courteous?

Is there a mosquito elimination program?

Are staff allowed to recycle cans, bottles, newspapers. If so, do they remove every evening? If recyclables are not removed every evening where are they kept? You might be surprised to find in the toilets and fire hose cupboards!

Are roads swept clean and free of weeds? Are kerb drains choked? Are roadside plantings beautiful?

Fire Safety: Are corridors clear of plants and ornaments? Does each floor have a fire hose? When were the fire extinguishers last checked? Do walk the emergency stairwells.

If you find too many negative things it means that manager is not doing his/her job and the management committee is not doing its. And you might want to look elsewhere for a home.

Good luck

By the time you look at all these factors................you probably won't even buy it!

It's not that difficult mate..........Aint like choosing a wife init.....

[Thaiquila]

Talk to some owners that are not selling right now. These grand checklists are swell, but in real life, how many people are going to check all those things?

This might be another good business opportunity for a Thai. Someone could develop a database of most of these answers for various condos and sell reports, including more customized aspects, to buyers who want to be extra careful. Then alot of these bothersome details would only have to be dealt with once, and then re purposed for a profit.

[steveromagnino]

Great list above.

BIg question:

who else is in the units

owner occupiers better than renters (generally)

if Thai ownership, then you want to know who; prominent families with multiple units are often more likely to demand and expect decent management

based on what i have seen large numbers of absent non- Thai owners can be problematic IF there is some reason they stop coming here; many of the buildings were unable to collect body corp fees from these ppl as the units were sitting vacant

leasehold vs. freehold

% of foreign ownership <49%