Thai court grants Koh Tao evidence review for pair accused of Brit murders

[aslimversgwm]

Once again questions about the role of the police who came from Britain and I really don't know what some posters expected.

They were here where they have no jurisdiction and were reliant on their hosts being forthcoming or otherwise. They could ask to see things but if refused that was it, no authority or right to demand.

I'm sure their report would have reflected views on co-operation or lack of it and that's their role completed. Release of their findings, in whole or in part, is out of their hands and is all down to what the Foreign office thinks should be made public and i would think nothing will be said until after the two lads have been tried.

Diplomacy trumps many things.

I've written to our embassy in Bangkok asking them to release the Metropolitan Police's report to the defence team and all I got back was as follows:

"Dear Mr Cartwright

Thank you for your e-mail of 6 December about the tragic murder of Hannah Witheridge and David Miller in Thailand.

The UK police did not undertake an investigation on Koh Tao, or elsewhere in Thailand, into the murders of Hannah Witheridge and David Miller. The investigation was a matter for the Thai authorities. The British police travelled to Thailand as observers to get a better understanding of the investigation conducted by the Royal Thai Police . The UK police officers subsequently visited the families of the murder victims and verbally explained what they had observed as well as the judicial process in Thailand. The UK police are preparing a report based on the observations of the police who visited Thailand. The report will be for the UK police only and will not be publicly released.

Kind regards" etc

I then asked the Metropolitan Police for release of their report to the defence team under the UK's Freedom of Information Act

as follows:

"Freedom of Information Act 2000: Report on observations of Thai police murder investigation on Koh Tao

Your enquiry: I sent you an email using this link on 11th February, 2015 and have had no response. Copy of its contents below. Please can you reply to it now:

Under the Freedom of information Act 2000 I request that the report made by the Metropolitan Police on the observations made of the Thai police's investigation into the murders of Hannah Witheridge and David Miller in Koh Tao, Thailand last year be released in full to the defence lawyers defending the accused Zaw Lin and Wei Phyo.

The head of the defence team is Nakhon Chompuchat (Head Defence Team Lawyer <snip>

Thank you, in anticipation, David Cartwright.

Perhaps you can also confirm if the report has been released to the defence team lawyer, detailed above?

and received this response - after a 2nd attempt (NO response when I originally sent my request in Feb):

"Thankyou for your E-mail You would have to speak to your own Police who then would get in touch with the london Authorities"

Very helpful - NOT! If this was in the UK the police would HAVE to release the report to the defence.

It's outrageous to think our cops went to Thailand, at considerable taxpayers expense, to 'observe' (NOT investigate - as I was corrected by our FCO/Embassy friends) and then only show it to the victim's families.

How can those poor families really believe a fair trial is going to take place with contaminated evidence and 'secret' police reports?

Edited May 1, 2015 by Jai Dee
removed email address and phone number as per Forum Rules

[catweazle]

At least something positive is happening, yet I doubt that there will be anything close to a fair trial. The DNA samples have been here and there and everywhere, even (at the beginning) been stored in the mafia headmen's fridge, who's the father of one of the initial prime suspects "Nom Sod" who disappeared for a full week after the murder most likely to allow the scratch marks on his arms and back (that were allegedly reported by some of his fellow co students) to heal. Investigators in charge, who accused "Nom Sod" and his relative "Mon", stating in front of cameras that there is rock hard evidence that links both, Mon and Nom Sod to the double murder, have been "discharged" respectively were "promoted" immediately after and were sent to other districts while puppets were installed to make it all go away and to pull the two burmese patsies into the limelight, eventually beating them into confession in a safe house, while having a burmese interpreter (tribal/religious enemy to that of the two patsies) engage in the action (the beating). Evidence was corrupted from the very start with one of the main suspects "Mon" who can be seen right next to police, trampling about the murder scene on almost any crime scene photo available taken on the first days of the investigation... Anyone who believes that the burmese patsies will receive a fair trial is a hopeless dreamer, sad as it is...

Newbies, who would like to get more detail about the botched murder investigation should read this please: http://thailandjustice.com/introduction-to-koh-tao-investigation/

Edited May 1, 2015 by catweazle

[ABCer]

I have no information to think one way or another.

Cannot blame the suspects, the Prosecution or Police.

But this does not mean that I have no doubts or instinctive thoughts telling me:

Too late!

The independent evaluation of evidence should have been done by Lawyers long time ago.

By now it will only find what is supposed to be found. Just a general observation.

[NCC1701A]

sad there are still countries in the world where the defense does not get access to all the evidence far in advance. in the USA nothing can be presented in court without a very long period of time for the defense to prepare their case.

Edited May 1, 2015 by NCC1701A

[ALLSEEINGEYE]

Is that not standard practice here then ?

I find it hard to believe defence have to beg to be given the evidence before a trial.

In more enlightened parts of the world the prosecution must provide ALL evidence to the defence, even if it is evidence that goes against the prosecution case.

Did anyone else just hear the sound bite from Law and Order?

[ExPratt]

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Is that not standard practice here then ?

I find it hard to believe defence have to beg to be given the evidence before a trial.

In more enlightened parts of the world the prosecution must provide ALL evidence to the defence, even if it is evidence that goes against the prosecution case.

I guess you mean the US, because many other western countries like UK, Germany etc. have different rules - not enlightened by your standards I assume.

Of course we all know that the US have the perfect legal system (ever read a John Grisham novel?).

Dont assume.

I was talking of Australia, NZ, UK.

Yes the UK does also require the prosecution to divulge all evidence to defence whether it strengthens or weakens the case does not matter. That's where Oz and NZ get it from, the UK.

I would assume they must divulge all physical evidence , Guns , Knives, phones with weird messages ect ect.?

But obviously witnesses statements are made in court so I would assume that that evidence would not be divulged ?

[ableguy]

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Is that not standard practice here then ?

I find it hard to believe defence have to beg to be given the evidence before a trial.

In more enlightened parts of the world the prosecution must provide ALL evidence to the defence, even if it is evidence that goes against the prosecution case.

I guess you mean the US, because many other western countries like UK, Germany etc. have different rules - not enlightened by your standards I assume.

Of course we all know that the US have the perfect legal system (ever read a John Grisham novel?).

Yes novel, do you understand the meaning of the word ?

[jaapfries]

For a very quick verification of facts, why not contact Steve Wilkos ? ? ? - He and his brilliant team will have this enigmatic mystery solved in no time.

[Si Thea01]

now all they have to do is be sure that they get the genuine evidence not what the prosecution is claiming to be the real evidence, could be very interesting as I am sure there are certain things they will not want to come out.

So you're intimating that the prosecution may provide the defence team with fabricated or false evidence and conceal from them the real facts. Have you read what you have written? If this were to happen, which, in my mind, there is no doubt that it could not nor would not occur, as it would require not a major conspiracy but a monumental one to be in play.

How many police personnel, forensic staff, prosecutors, witnesses, court staff, and judges, to name just a few, do you think would have to be involved for something, such as you suggest, to occur. Think about it. Now, you're also sure the are certain things that they will not want to come out.

Please, you know as much as I do, sweet bugger all, so why do you think you know so much and post in such a manner. if you know as much as you're trying to suggest, then maybe you should go along and offer your two bob's worth to the defence team. There's an old saying that we have back home, "You would be laughed out of court."

[NongKhaiKid]

Once again this case is in the headlines and far more to come, again too lots of questions the answers to which may never be revealed.

I hate to be repetitive but I doubt the Met detectives were shown enough upon which they could make a reasoned judgement so if anyone has presented to the families there's a good case they are very unprofessional and extremely reckless.

I'd like to think it was done with caution and included words to the effect " this is what we were told, we couldn't verify anything, it all has to be tested in court "etc They would have / should have been aware of the possibility of the families talking to the press and spoken accordingly.

The Thais jumped in with both feet starting with the " i don't believe a Thai could have done this " then they were lining up to make contradictory statements to the media and it all started to unravel with possibly much more to come.

[murphya33]

3 pages and counting in the first few hours this story has been posted on this website. Still amazing energy on this case. Just noticing.

[tajtom]

VERY FUNNY,

What complete bullshit and UK police have the intelligence of a brick. They should have already strongly apposed the jury !

These two are innocent and the dirty little Thais are still at large, They are scum and if was my sister I keep you for as long as I can

Thai Police are uneducated in matters of forensic technology and only understand protect Thai and country. You will never see justice here>>> Good Luck

[NongKhaiKid]

VERY FUNNY,

What complete bullshit and UK police have the intelligence of a brick. They should have already strongly apposed the jury !

These two are innocent and the dirty little Thais are still at large, They are scum and if was my sister I keep you for as long as I can

Thai Police are uneducated in matters of forensic technology and only understand protect Thai and country. You will never see justice here>>> Good Luck

I sincerely hope you are trying to be a failed troll as this is nonsense.

" Appose the jury " ? What is to be laid side by side and if you mean oppose that's wrong too as there's no jury system here.

UK police have the intelligence of a brick why ? They came to a country where they have no jurisdiction and were supposed to do what under the constraints involved ?

[catweazle]

now all they have to do is be sure that they get the genuine evidence not what the prosecution is claiming to be the real evidence, could be very interesting as I am sure there are certain things they will not want to come out.

So you're intimating that the prosecution may provide the defence team with fabricated or false evidence and conceal from them the real facts. Have you read what you have written? If this were to happen, which, in my mind, there is no doubt that it could not nor would not occur, as it would require not a major conspiracy but a monumental one to be in play.

How many police personnel, forensic staff, prosecutors, witnesses, court staff, and judges, to name just a few, do you think would have to be involved for something, such as you suggest, to occur. Think about it. Now, you're also sure the are certain things that they will not want to come out.

Please, you know as much as I do, sweet bugger all, so why do you think you know so much and post in such a manner. if you know as much as you're trying to suggest, then maybe you should go along and offer your two bob's worth to the defence team. There's an old saying that we have back home, "You would be laughed out of court."

SiThea, while you basically call doubters of the official story here naive, your very own naiveness shines like a full moon in a crystal clear night sky. It does not take a monumental conspiracy to achieve what was achieved so far (the true murderers/rapists free and patsies caught and accused), especially after the DNA samples were allegedly stored in the headman's fridge. There was ample time and opportunity to mess with and remove/exchange evidence in the very beginning of the investigation, where prime suspects can be seen on photos trampling about the murder scene. A cigarette bud taken away here, while another is placed there, blood stained clothes removed and burned, changing the contents of the DNA samples in the fridge, etc. even messing with the hoe, was all possible even without the need of support by the RTP plus is there a big chance of postmortem rape of Hannah's body, or the possibility that she had consensual sex with someone prior to the time of the murder...

Edited May 1, 2015 by catweazle

[Basil B]

What ever the Thai law on "sub judice" I will expect the UK police, HO & FO to do nothing that would prejudiced the trial.

[PLW]

Wnat required to give as DNA samples? Blood or ejaculate. If the latter it could be manipulated and used against them. This is the real question are these DNA samples legitimate?

[razer]

Will a report from the British police be released?

[NongKhaiKid]

now all they have to do is be sure that they get the genuine evidence not what the prosecution is claiming to be the real evidence, could be very interesting as I am sure there are certain things they will not want to come out.

So you're intimating that the prosecution may provide the defence team with fabricated or false evidence and conceal from them the real facts. Have you read what you have written? If this were to happen, which, in my mind, there is no doubt that it could not nor would not occur, as it would require not a major conspiracy but a monumental one to be in play.

How many police personnel, forensic staff, prosecutors, witnesses, court staff, and judges, to name just a few, do you think would have to be involved for something, such as you suggest, to occur. Think about it. Now, you're also sure the are certain things that they will not want to come out.

Please, you know as much as I do, sweet bugger all, so why do you think you know so much and post in such a manner. if you know as much as you're trying to suggest, then maybe you should go along and offer your two bob's worth to the defence team. There's an old saying that we have back home, "You would be laughed out of court."

Laughed out of court ? This is a Thai court.

[SLESQ]

Thanks to all for your open and continuing interest.

Your help is still needed by the Defense Team; but TVF will not allow a post to that effect.

Please send me an IM or go Andy Hall on Face Book to find how you can add your meaningful help to the Defense Team.

[Alwyn]

This enforces the families of the deceased when they said "the public nor the media have all the facts and not to jump to conclusions". We are now witness to an independent analysis of the evidence and as time goes on I am sure more evidence will come out and then more. That should keep the TVF sleuths at bay until they find something else to cry injustice about.

This highlights yet again that the family seem to have been speaking from a position that we are or will never be privy too. Unless the sleuths suggest the family is part of the grand conspiracy too!

Surely you mean they were told stuff by the RTP and stuff from the British police that they in turn were told by the RTP? If - and I repeat 'IF@ the RTP were setting thi up so these Burmese took it on the chin they would hardly tell the kids families "don't worry, we got to foriegn lads and we're putting them in the frame otherwise it migh not get solved and tourism will suffer!, would they? Like you and me and all the other posters here, the family were not there at the time and only know what the police want to tell them, be that truth or fiction. People here on TV are great at jumping to their own conlusions and opinions, which we're all entitled to do. This latest part of the saga seems promising but ahain, they will only get access to what the police and defence decide they want to be given. The crime scene was madly trashed and evidence is not robust. It's going to get interesting.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Alwyn

[Falcon]

This won't go very far due to the embarrassment/face saving factor of anything already done by the police to force a confession on these 2 boys. They will never allow anything to come to light that will show their in efficiency or corrupt ways and will hurt anything and everything that could show this. I would even go as far as to say that the court would not allow anything to be entered in to the case that would make the RTP investigation team lose face.

[Alwyn]

It doesn't matter what the truth is, either way they will be found guilty.Can you inagine the loss of facefor the 'PM' if they were found not guilty after personally awarding the efficiency of the police with cash? That on it's own might be enough for the citizens of Thailand to kick off about this junta and it's self-appointed PM so not guilty? Not an option.

[NanLaew]

Once again questions about the role of the police who came from Britain and I really don't know what some posters expected.

They were here where they have no jurisdiction and were reliant on their hosts being forthcoming or otherwise. They could ask to see things but if refused that was it, no authority or right to demand.

I'm sure their report would have reflected views on co-operation or lack of it and that's their role completed. Release of their findings, in whole or in part, is out of their hands and is all down to what the Foreign office thinks should be made public and i would think nothing will be said until after the two lads have been tried.

Diplomacy trumps many things.

Maybe (UK style) due process trumps it all? What if the UK police did come across any evidence to the contrary? They, and the UK authorities aren't about to jeapordize whatever passes for a credible trial in another country. As mentioned earlier, the time for any (if any) startling revelations from their visit is after any trial or appeals process.

If a Thai had been murdered in high-profile manner the UK and the Thai police invited to observe the UK plods investigation and then went back to Bangkok and publicly declared their conclusions before any trial in the UK, I am pretty sure any half-witted defense lawyer would manage to get at least a mistrial.

Edited May 1, 2015 by NanLaew

[Thai at Heart]

Incredibly this isn't standard. Thank God I never ended up in trouble with the law in Thailand. What hope does a defendent have if they can't review the evidence?

[matman]

Yes the UK does also require the prosecution to divulge all evidence to defence whether it strengthens or weakens the case does not matter. That's where Oz and NZ get it from, the UK.

This is the theory of what should happen but in reality it is not.

I do not speculate on this I speak from my own personal experience of vital evidence and details of events that show allegations against me were a 'state created crime' I had details of vital evidential phone calls deleted by the police from my mobile phone (but they didn't realise they would appear on my phone bill) Tape recordings were made of conversations without the correct authorisation being in place, The original tape recordings were 'edited' by the police, and my defence team were never allowed to hear either the original or the edited recordings, only given a transcript.

There is as much corruption in the UK police as there is in the Thai police, In Thailand it is financially motivated, in the UK a high rate of convictions will result in promotion and of course a larger salary. Do I have to quote such cases as the 'Birmingham 6' or the Guilford 4' to highlight this, and currently the enquiries into the Hillsborough disaster are now being told that the senior officers in charge covered up evidence and lied in statements to cover their backsides.

I laugh so many times when the efficiency and credibility of the UK police is lauded

[mango66]

who will guaratee that they will get the original samples,

and not the !!"" Correct samples ""!! collected from the police after weeks ??

As this defence team is not a thai authority, how trhey will get access to all this datas ?

Never ever - you are in Thailand, not in EU !!

[jdinasia]

It doesn't matter what the truth is, either way they will be found guilty.Can you inagine the loss of facefor the 'PM' if they were found not guilty after personally awarding the efficiency of the police with cash? That on it's own might be enough for the citizens of Thailand to kick off about this junta and it's self-appointed PM so not guilty? Not an option.

Cash?

[mango66]

how a judje can court correctly, if he will be supported by false and fake evidences ?

Is it all forgotten what the RTP played there around with the DNA samples ?

There is absolutely no security that this samples which were analized really still the samples taken in koh tao from the victims;

There were hundred chances to exchange them;

If our BIg brother over the Ocean - ther CI... agents do it daily,

so why do you think such thinks not can happen in LOS ??

The mafia from KT, RTP and Politics have decided thiis 2 guys are guilty, so they will be guilty also by cord !!

[aslimversgwm]

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Once again questions about the role of the police who came from Britain and I really don't know what some posters expected.

They were here where they have no jurisdiction and were reliant on their hosts being forthcoming or otherwise. They could ask to see things but if refused that was it, no authority or right to demand.

I'm sure their report would have reflected views on co-operation or lack of it and that's their role completed. Release of their findings, in whole or in part, is out of their hands and is all down to what the Foreign office thinks should be made public and i would think nothing will be said until after the two lads have been tried.

Diplomacy trumps many things.

I wonder if the report from the British police is included in the evidence made available to the defendants lawyers?

Please see my post no. 61 - I've tried but failed

[berybert]

If they have any DNA evidence from Hannah's body then hang them high. Personally I believe the only DNA evidence they have is from a cigarette butt.

So the DNA which would be from sperm is the killer here. They must prove the DNA is actual sperm and not from the fag butt.

Is that possible, I don't know. But now the woman expert is on the scene I expect we will find out.

As for bloodied clothes, seems to be a new one. No mention of bloody clothes in any police reports from the time when they were reporting every detail.

Even David's clothes managed to be clean shiny and new despite being surrounded by blood on the beach.