Re apply UK spouse visa after refusal

[7by7]

Don't wait for a reply from the Home Office before submitting the appeal; you only have 28 days to do so, remember.

The last time I submitted an enquiry to the Immigration Minister it took nearly three months to get a reply!

Hopefully, though, an enquiry from an MP will be dealt with more quickly.

[ukguy51]

Thanks 7by7 yes have this in back of my mind. just had reply from MP, home office rang this morning and reviewing our case. going to get back to me if anything else needed.

[bobrussell]

Don't expect too much from the Home Office. They are good at finding other reasons to reject an application. Continue with the appeal and make it clear you are continuing to do so!

Fingers crossed that they don't decide to dig their heels in.

It really is a disgrace that we have a system that allows this sort of situation to arise. It should be possible for almost all genuine applications to be processed successfully without searching out legal or forum advice!

[7by7]

Submit the appeal; don't wait until your MP hears from the Home Office.

If s/he does get them to overturn the refusal you can always withdraw the appeal.

But if that doesn't happen and you haven't submitted the appeal by the deadline then, unless you have a seriously compelling, compassionate reason for not so doing, that's it. Appeal out of time; new application required.

[ukguy51]

Thanks guys for he sensible advice. I think you are right, I will start putting the appeal bundle together and submit it ASAP. Bobrusel have you seen cases where they find other reasons to refsuse ? On our refusal he marked all other areas as supplied and only the 3 reasons I have now recified refused on. Surely an appeal court judge would not accept them changing their mind because they cant refuse again on the 3 they had would they ?

[bobrussell]

UKBA/UKVI just don't like being challenged and you are more likely to face little or no response. I have had experience of them not dealing with complaints. Replies that just do not deal with the issues seem to be the favorite. If you give people enough of a runaround they will eventually go away

Had this with dealings with the old UKBA and more recently the UKVI.

Most of my comments are linked to previous reports by the Independent Inspector of Borders & Immigration who made it clear that it was not acceptable to introduce new reasons for refusal when people re-apply after a refusal.

Appeals are there to determine whether the process has been carried out appropriately. It seems yours was borderline to say the least.

The reports are quite damning and worth reading for those with interest in the visa system!

An example is: http://icinspector.independent.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Family-Visits-Inspection-16.07.2015.pdf esp page 11. This suggests the removal of rights has not changed the statistics but highlights variable standards and inconsistencies. Interestingly the on-line form needs improvement! What a shocker!

[ukguy51]

Bobrussell

Just read the link it is a lot worse than I thought. All be it family visit visa have now gone it is shocking, I was under the impression especially settlement visa's that and ECM would look over eco refusals as a matter of course when such high stakes are at risk.

I agree that the 3 reasons of refusal on our case look border line and had it been my fault would wind it in, pay again and submit new app. I really don't hold up much hope of a turn around, like you say they will dig heels in and save face. The two departments that led to 2 of the refusals have at last put there hands up and sorted it so that should not need appeal although I will put it in the application so the Judge can see sometimes things are out of the applicants control. The other I do not believe the ECO had grounds to refuse but that's what needs to be appealed. If I do not appeal then I have to wait till middle of next year to re apply as I cannot rectify bank statements I never ever had. Just have to wait and see on that one.

[bobrussell]

Sorry they have targets to meet. Hopefully not pass/fail ones but targets nonetheless.

I have watched the Chief Inspectors reports over a number of years. He/She really should supervise all of the visa categories. The idea was to ensure fair treatment of people without the ability to appeal.

This means that those able to appeal really have nowhere to go until the courts are looming! It keeps ECO's well protected from having to respond to criticism. A lot of appeals were/are successful!

Of course the right thing to do would be to give them time and resources to process all applications correctly and fairly rather than the few minutes they get at the moment.

Edited August 26, 2015 by bobrussell

[bobrussell]

I have read on from the Inspectors report on Family visit visas and it is being clearly stated that ECO's should be contacting applicants for further information on a much more regular basis. ECO's standing by the line that it is the applicants responsibility to ensure all paperwork is provided.

Clearly David Bolt is of the opinion that visa applications should be processed fairly and where necessary additional information sought.

How at odds this is to the way the system is working at the moment.

Bit of a tangent to the original thread but a really important one IMO!

Also:

"With regard to the two cases where visas were issued on re-application, we believe it would have been good customer service to offer refunds, as the applicants had incurred additional costs as a result of poor decision-making."

Mr Bolt is either a great but hopeful man or a sadly deluded one! Time for complainants to include sections of the reports with their complaints!

Edited August 26, 2015 by bobrussell

[Tony M]

UKBA/UKVI just don't like being challenged and you are more likely to face little or no response. I have had experience of them not dealing with complaints. Replies that just do not deal with the issues seem to be the favorite. If you give people enough of a runaround they will eventually go away

Had this with dealings with the old UKBA and more recently the UKVI.

Most of my comments are linked to previous reports by the Independent Inspector of Borders & Immigration who made it clear that it was not acceptable to introduce new reasons for refusal when people re-apply after a refusal.

Appeals are there to determine whether the process has been carried out appropriately. It seems yours was borderline to say the least.

The reports are quite damning and worth reading for those with interest in the visa system!

An example is: http://icinspector.independent.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Family-Visits-Inspection-16.07.2015.pdf esp page 11. This suggests the removal of rights has not changed the statistics but highlights variable standards and inconsistencies. Interestingly the on-line form needs improvement! What a shocker!

Although the ICI says that the refusal numbers in family visit visa applications did not rise, that is disputed. See this article by Colin Yeo of Free Movement, in which Colin says :

If we drill down into the detail of the report it turns out that the claim that the removal of appeal rights has had no impact on decision making is anecdotal. There is no analysis of global refusal rate and not even any analysis of benchmarks on quality.

The report itself includes this :

Seemingly, the ICI did not use data to reach his conclusion, and that does seem strange when Colin Yeo has found some data on the subject that shows that refusal numbers in visit visa applications rose by around 25% almost immediately after the right of appeal for family visits was removed. See Colin's article here :

https://www.freemovement.org.uk/inspection-of-family-visit-visa-system-serious-problems-remain/?utm_source=FM+master+list&utm_campaign=b519f053e7-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_DAILY&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_792133aa40-b519f053e7-105100321&mc_cid=b519f053e7&mc_eid=2b5f179930

[ukguy51]

I think in the end if they do nothing to change then not much point of reports. Throughout the system they talk about Customer service and improving yet they dont. Until they are made accountable for wrong decisions that are serious in that they ruin peoples lives and familys then nothing will improve.

Along with getting appeal fees back thay should be made to pay compensation when it is shown the ECO should have granted. Maybe then the ECM's will pay a lot more attention and those who constantly get it wrong given the boot. The mere fact they are unanswerable for the work they do leaves it wide open for abuse.

If any of us who run a business or work in management acted the way ECO's do we would be out of business/sacked £1000 for 10 minutes tick boxing, no contact to the customer is a disgrace. And to dump it on the applicant and say its your fault with absolutely no help is bloody robbery. You should not have to be an expert in immigration, you should not have to pay high amounts for legal help you paid near on a grand for a service. Automatically advice and fairness to get missing documents or explain why they are missing should be part of the customer service.

My priority is getting my wife home after that I will throw the lot at the Parliamentary Ombudsman about the lack of service I will put the above reports in with it so thanks for the links guys. I have been screwed over by DWP, Local Council and the UKVI yet I am the one made to feel its my fault and it is my family ripped apart.

Edited August 27, 2015 by ukguy51

[ukguy51]

In an earlier post someone did sue the home office however the Judge although sypathetic to the applicant said the Home Ofiice do not have a duty of care to applicant or spouse disallowed and he had to pay costs.

Maybe they are above the law they certainly act like it.

Edited August 27, 2015 by ukguy51

[durhamboy]

Yes ukguy51 that was me who tried to sue them - see my post #96 above.

That was over 15 years ago but I doubt if anything has changed. I was looking for compensation because my then wife had to make 2 settlement visa applications even though she/we fully satisfied all the requirements in getting the first visa and, in fact, because she had been in the UK for over a year she was entitled for ILR which we had applied for! So even if you comply with all the rules you still don't necessary get what you are entitled to.

Another little quirk in the system is that it seems that there is no such legal entity as the Home Office! When I sued them I had to put their solicitors as the defendants of the case! Crazy!

[ukguy51]

Thanks Benroon I will certainly consider it. Priority is to get wife home first. I will seek advice and given that there are three government departments I hold accountable felt the Ombudsman would be the place to go.

[durhamboy]

In an earlier post someone did sue the home office however the Judge although sypathetic to the applicant said the Home Ofiice do not have a duty of care to applicant or spouse disallowed and he had to pay costs.

Maybe they are above the law they certainly act like it.

Did the judge mention negligence ? Duty of care and negligence are entirely different.

Duty of car is a huge subjective argument and that gives the Home Office a lot of wriggle room. However negligence is negligence. That's the keyword . I'm not aware of the details of that case but if you can prove negligence then you're onto a winner. As in every case its how confident you are of your case in that they followed their own guidelines and if not that you are out of pocket as a result. If not this is negligence.

Duty of care only means they could have done better - ie picked up the phone, asked for clarification etc etc none of which they are obliged to do. (would be nice of course but not obliged)

Some barristers (and I emphasise a barrister not Joe Bloggs High Street solicitor) will give you a percentage chance of winning your case before you start handing over wads of cash for legal fees.

Interesting angle Benroon and you may be right although, in my opinion, I don't think a negligence claim would work.

As I'm sure you know the expression "duty of care" is a formal legal term that determines whether someone is liable to someone else if something goes wrong.

Duty of care covers innumerable situations in our lives e.g. I think it can even extend to crazy situations where a burglar injures himself in a house by falling through weak floorboards and the owner of the house has a duty of care to ensure that the condition of the house is not such that anyone would be injured in it. So the owner could be sued by the burglar for negligence.

But, as I found out to my cost, the Home Office owes no duty of care to immigrants or their sponsors. Therefore I think a negligence claim would fail although I would love to see it succeed.

[ukguy51]

I think it all boils down to what I said earlier. Civil Servents are not personaly accountable they hide behind their departments and just dont give a stuff.

In one part of my issue DWP even knowing my MP is involved still a week later have not supplied me the requested information i.e. It was their cock up that I could not show my Class 2 Insurance even though I had asked them to sort it some 3 months before my wife returned to Thailand and application was submitted I explained fully that this needs to be submitted with application. Nope nothing I rang them 3 days before my wife was due to fly back to Thailand and appointment at VFS was on the day she landed in Bangkok. Here I might add on that day I rang UKVI in the UK who after I explained the situation giving the DWP's member of staffs name told me to put it in writing in an explanation to the ECO and that will be ok.

I did ECO refused missing document !

The member of staff for DWP last week said to me its not our fault it is the system it had a had a glitch, I said hang on I rang you 5 times over 3 months and it took you 5 months to put it right, yes I do hold you responsible and the information I am now requesting is because my MP ask me to request from you. Now over a week later no contact yet again even though another promise to call me back..

[bobrussell]

There is another option and that is to make a complaint to the parliamentary ombudsman.

http://www.ombudsman.org.uk/make-a-complaint

It is necessary to give the government department the chance to deal with the complaint first but nothing to stop anyone contacting them for advice. Will it work? Probably not but then little seems to work anyway.

I do think the Independent inspection reports have an effect on UKVI as the reports are presented to parliament and often make the press. UKVI say they will implement agreed changes but not always that well. I think training levels have improved but it is the continuing inconsistencies that are the big worry.

UKVI have got quite smart at avoiding bad results. In Geneva the visa application centre refused to process an EEA Family permit at all. Told them to do it again and come back despite the 9 hour round trip. Not processed, not refused, no right of appeal, no clear explanation. Not a surprise that the applicant became stressed and refused to continue with the application.

The system continues to be unfit for purpose except when massaging figures to look better!

[ukguy51]

Yes bobrussell already looked at that route and like you say have to wait for them to put things right hence MP has at least got Home Office to look at our case again. Unless the refusal is overturned which I really dont hold much hope on given the ECO could not be bothered to check my explanations on all 3 of the missing parts he refused on in the first place. I think appeal first and then Ombudsman and local papers if we don't shout loud enough we just simply will not get heard and this will continue.

Makes me seriously wonder if as in our case it affects a 6 year old disabled child how a few missing pieces of paper that I had no control over yet still provided enough evidence of meeting the £18,600 out ways my family's human rights as the ECO had said.

[7by7]

Just a couple of points.

Sorry they have targets to meet. Hopefully not pass/fail ones but targets nonetheless.

What targets, Bob?

£1000 for 10 minutes tick boxing,

In most categories, all except 6 month visit visas if memory serves, according to the government's own figures visa and leave to remain fees are actually way above the actual cost of processing the application.

This policy was introduced by Labour and continued by the Coalition and now the Tories.

The profits made do not go to UKVI, they go to the general exchequer.

I'm sure that, like me, no one here expects the tax payer to subsidise visa and LTR applications; but I do expect to be charged a fair fee set to recover costs; not one which makes a profit for the government!

[bobrussell]

Most obvious target is processing times. ECO's have to clear applications within the targets given.

They should have more targets, based on performance. What proportion of decisions are considered correct and reasonable based on independent scrutiny?

The reports regularly state percentages related to decision making for example:

"we considered that 19 (10%) cases failed one or more decision making quality indicator because the decision had not been in line with available evidence."

Regularly the various reports produce very unflattering figures for the quality of UKVI work but these figures should already be measured and action taken to improve performance. Without scrutiny there is little or no drive to raise standards.

Poor/variable/inconsistent standards will not improve if nobody is looking at those standards. The new Chief Inspector seems a little kinder to UKVI than the previous one. Few of the reports are that complementary. Good bedtime reading!

If I failed to treat 1 in 10 cases adequately I would have been struck off!

[ukguy51]

Update.....

As we all expected Home Office protected ECO didnt give a stuff it was DWP and Council who screwed me over and totally ignored

9.3.8. Self-employed income can be cash-in-hand if the correct tax is paid. In line with paragraph 3.1.5 of this guidance, it would generally be expected that the person’s business or personal bank statements would fully reflect all gross (pre-tax) cash income. Flexibility may only be applied where the decision-maker is satisfied that the cash income relied upon is fully evidenced by the relevant tax return(s) and the accounts information.

​

So a year now before can reapply and as I just said to MP it is not even worth the heart ache or money applying for another visit visa because I already know the answer. Refused don't believe wife will go back after visit. My grandfather would turn in his grave fighting for this sh** hole for freedom.

[bobrussell]

Not sure a further visit visa is out of the question but there is always a risk of refusal.

In the covering letter you can clearly document what happened and what you are doing to correct the situation. A visit is a partial stop gap until this is resolved. You appreciate and accept that a further settlement visa will involve a return to Thailand for the applicant. Wording such as 'we understand that failure to return or overstaying might adversely affect future visa applications' might help matters.

It is possible that they will refuse to admit they should have done better but could accept that on the balance of probabilities the applicant is likely to comply with the terms of the visa.

Are you appealing formally?

[ukguy51]

Thanks Bobrussell. Yes putting together appeal bundle now. I have no choice i have to get it over to the judge that bank statement were not missing how could something that never existed be missing and that i was realying on this section in my FM-SE proof and that I satisfied this to the letter.

9.3.8. Self-employed income can be cash-in-hand if the correct tax is paid. In line with paragraph 3.1.5 of this guidance, it would generally be expected that the person’s business or personal bank statements would fully reflect all gross (pre-tax) cash income. Flexibility may only be applied where the decision-maker is satisfied that the cash income relied upon is fully evidenced by the relevant tax return(s) and the accounts information.​

My wife only went back in June so I think they will throw that in to many visits and using it to live in UK.

No point until I get it accepted on the Bank Statements that 9.3.8 is acceptable in my case to apply for new spouse visa because as said I cant produce something that never existed. Catch 22.

[ukguy51]

when doing the appeal do I just put evidence of the three items missing and full explanation to why I did/could not supply in the first instance or a full set of documents as if i was reapplying ? Thanks

[Tony M]

There have been several reports recently of ECOs not taking submitted evidence of finances into account. I'm wondering if it is just one ECO doing this, or whether it is more widespread. If you are happy to let me know who signed the refusal notice then please send me a PM. It will be signed with either a number (BKK/....) or initials (BKK/.....).

You could try submitting a complaint (after your, hopefully, successful application), but UKVI seem to be currently refusing to accept any complaints. It is likely that they will respond with something along the lines of " We are unable to assist you with your enquiry as this is regarding applying from overseas for an Entry Clearance Visa and issues arising from this or regarding a refund for your visa application from overseas. Please refer to the link below for further assistance; https://ukvi-international.faq-help.com/........", and refer you to the International Enquiry Service. The IES will respond along the lines of "As we are not involved in the decision making of UK visa applications we do not have any access to the information required and we are not able to provide any specific information regarding your query." I'm still trying to work out how a complaint becomes an enquiry in their minds. If you do decide to submit a complaint, then please let me know if it is accepted by UKVI (or not, as the case may be), as I am trying to compile an over-arching "complaint" on the current complaints "system". If anyone else has had a similar experience, then please let me know.