Most-wanted German Nazi Sommer 'unfit for trial'

[micmichd]

The victimhood competition is ridiculous and why speak of Gaza about a Nazi torturer?

I think we should forget all indulgence toward mass criminals, not only by the spirit of justice but also send the message to current barbaric that there will be no forgiveness.

People here are sending a soldier to Israel for killing Italians 70+ years ago?? So speaking about Gaza is as close the topic as Israel.Anyway we are talking about murder in both cases. Personally I feel would be more beneficially to focus on present crimes against humanity.

To Italy in this case.

Guess it is extremely important to learn more about the way the Nazis used a bureaucracy, an industrial system and propaganda for Holocaust. If you don't know the mechanism behind it could happen again.

[thaibeachlovers]

Did he ever gave the benefit of being ' unfit ' before sending people to death under his

supervision? I doubt it very much... oh how civil can a German be when they want to.....

As much as I agree with the first part of your post.

Would you and the rest of the world accept if Germany execute a 93 year old, even so he deserve it?

If he was indeed a nazi, and that is easy enough to prove, yes, I'd accept it. Regardless if he killed loads or one person.

However, if it was up to me I'd put nazis naked in a small cage and allow small boys to poke them with sharp sticks.

[snowgard]

The Holocaust was the climax of it all, an industrially organized genocide.

Besides that, the Nazis exterminated all kinds of minorities that were in their way, even in hospitals and by medical experiments.

They also killed women and children, and that's a war crime. No excuse.

And what you say about the mass bombing and destroying the most german cities where in this time at most only womans, Kids and old People lived?

This was a war crime too but NO ONE was interested!!! Some 100.000 womans, Kids and old People died in the bombings and fire!!! This had nothing todo with WAR!!!

https://www.google.co.th/search?q=mass+destruction+german+cities&num=100&safe=off&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=JkRoVd7aAcbxUozWgcAE&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1264&bih=551

[sawadee1947]

Many survivors of the Holocaust can't sleep at night as long as they are not sure that things like this (industrially organized genocide) will never happen again. This Nazi should be taken to court in Israel.

No, hate and revenge is not a good judge

[sawadee1947]

Did he ever gave the benefit of being ' unfit ' before sending people to death under his

supervision? I doubt it very much... oh how civil can a German be when they want to.....

As much as I agree with the first part of your post.

Would you and the rest of the world accept if Germany execute a 93 year old, even so he deserve it?

If he was indeed a nazi, and that is easy enough to prove, yes, I'd accept it. Regardless if he killed loads or one person.

However, if it was up to me I'd put nazis naked in a small cage and allow small boys to poke them with sharp sticks.

Germany does not have any death penalty. No execution. Americans and IS are better in this

[snowgard]

Heeeeeeeeeeey , the UK civilians were bombed FIRST by the Germans, my mum endured this. The Germans reaped what they sewed........So, feeeerk of with that stuff..

And you think you are better as the NAZIS? It's same as if someone kill your mother you gone and kill the completly family from the killer. But not the killer self!!!

Who is more bad? This were all civilians and not the German Nazis or Army!!!

But I hope we learned ALL about it and this never happen again!!!

[snowgard]

Heeeeeeeeeeey , the UK civilians were bombed FIRST by the Germans, my mum endured this. The Germans reaped what they sewed........So, feeeerk of with that stuff..

You are completly wrong. The RAF bombed the Germans first. You can read it at Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_bombing_during_World_War_II

The RAF flew its first strategic bombing raid on Germany at Mönchengladbach on 11 May 1940 and in September 1940, the Luftwaffe began targeting British cities in 'The Blitz'.^[16] From 1942 onward, the British bombing campaign against Germany became less restrictive and increasingly targeted industrial sites and eventually, civilian areas.^[17][18] When the United States began flying bombing missions against Germany, it reinforced these efforts and controversial firebombings were carried out against Hamburg (1943), Dresden (1945), and other German cities.^[19]

^{And don't forget: The Brits declared the war to Germany and not different!!!}

[geriatrickid]

It's time to wrap up that nasty part of German history.

There is no "unfitness" for war criminals; his victims were also not asked if they were fit for torture and extinction.

On the other hand it is time to look forward. Once the last murderer has met his creator we should keep this period of history alive in museums and school books. Likewise also stop blaming the Germans for this terrible genocide as the Germans living today were not in a decision-making or understanding-what-happens-around-them age yet.

Most nations have bloody pasts; the Brits did a splendid job conquering the world which is written up nicer than reality in their history books. Ditto the French. The Americans can run Guantanamo bay, the whole world knows it and nobody brings those detainees (as they officially are called) to justice despite being there for many years.

It also means, that our Jewish friends should look forward and stop their bashing on Germans; keeping a guilty conscience alive is of no use either. After all, the official Israel has a nice, proven track of records as far as hostility (West Bank, Gaza come to mind) is concerned.

Take the man to trial, if found guilty then lock him up and throw away the key.

What are you on about? None of the scenarios you describe is really occurring today. Nor does the French/British colonial past have any relevance to this issue. Your sarcastic use of the term "Jewish" friends and your accusation of bashing aside from being idiotic is bogus. Convenient way for you to get a swipe at Israel though, right?

Let me make it very clear to you what the issue is. German soldiers massacred Italian civilians, including 130 children. Many were murdered when they were locked in a church basement where grenades were then thrown causing a fire such that the people were burnt alive. Despite the evidence, no legal action was brought for precisely the reasons you want everyone to now embrace, the old chestnut of le bygones be bygones, forgive and forget. Over a dozen murderers were living out their lives collecting pensions and having a grand old time in Germany. Finally, an investigation was launched. The Germans dragged their heels on this case. They didn't co-operate and they didn't want to be embarrassed by the revelations in regard to mass murderers having been allowed to escape responsibility for their deeds because of German government policy. That's what this case is about. Do you understand that there was an intentional delay of the case? Justice was denied. The end result is that you have a large number of Italians who lost family members and were denied justice. Do you understand why their might be some resentment?

Do you get it now? Or would you like to toss out another simplistic statement that excuses the atrocity and ignores the dereliction of legal and moral obligations?

[geriatrickid]

Heeeeeeeeeeey , the UK civilians were bombed FIRST by the Germans, my mum endured this. The Germans reaped what they sewed........So, feeeerk of with that stuff..

You are completly wrong. The RAF bombed the Germans first. You can read it at Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_bombing_during_World_War_II

The RAF flew its first strategic bombing raid on Germany at Mönchengladbach on 11 May 1940 and in September 1940, the Luftwaffe began targeting British cities in 'The Blitz'.^[16] From 1942 onward, the British bombing campaign against Germany became less restrictive and increasingly targeted industrial sites and eventually, civilian areas.^[17][18] When the United States began flying bombing missions against Germany, it reinforced these efforts and controversial firebombings were carried out against Hamburg (1943), Dresden (1945), and other German cities.^[19]

^{And don't forget: The Brits declared the war to Germany and not different!!!}

Despite you lacklustre effort at historical revisionism, you are wrong. France and Great Britain had signed a treaty with Poland to come to its defense if attacked by Germany. The agreement had been intended to keep the peace and reassure Europeans that Germany had a line that could not be crossed. Germany declared war on Poland, and invaded, forcing the hand of France and Great Britain.

In respect to the bombing of Germany, the Commonwealth and US air forces have nothing to apologize for. The target areas were all legitimate.. Every "civilian" was an integrated part of the German killing/destruction machine. As the war demonstrated, there were no German civilians. There were however, Hitler Youth trained from an early age to kill, and to give absolute loyalty to the German war machine. There were women women considered to be baby factories and part of the war effort. All of Germany was complicit All of Germany was an integrated part of the conquest strategy. No one was a conscientious objector, and no one was a non combatant. By the time of the bombing campaign, anyone who had opposed the Nazis was either murdered or in a concentration camp waiting to die.

Edited May 29, 2015 by geriatrickid

[thousandpercent]

Did he ever gave the benefit of being ' unfit ' before sending people to death under his

supervision? I doubt it very much... oh how civil can a German be when they want to.....

How do you know he sent anyone to death? Don't you think he should be allowed to put forth a defense before you decide?

Sommer and others had already been found guilty in 2005 by an Italian military court and sentenced to life in prison in absentia.

"In absentia" means the defendant did not put forth a defense. So, how do you know he sent anyone to death? Don't you think he should be allowed to put forth a defense before you decide?

[thousandpercent]

Did he ever gave the benefit of being ' unfit ' before sending people to death under his

supervision? I doubt it very much... oh how civil can a German be when they want to.....

How do you know he sent anyone to death? Don't you think he should be allowed to put forth a defense before you decide?

"Sommer and others had already been found guilty in 2005 by an Italian military court and sentenced to life in prison in absentia."

Did you miss reading that bit? Or is it a comprehension problem?

"In absentia" means the defendant didn't put forth a defense. I know you didn't miss reading that bit. It's obviously an education problem. In the future, look up the big words in a dictionary before you pretend to know what they mean.

[geriatrickid]

"In absentia" means the defendant didn't put forth a defense. I know you didn't miss reading that bit. It's obviously an education problem. In the future, look up the big words in a dictionary before you pretend to know what they mean.

You missed some key issues:

1. War crime and a military court. Different rules apply than in a basic criminal trial.

2. The defendants were aware of the court proceedings but has REFUSED to participate. More specifically;

- charges were served

- defendant was summoned to trial but declined to appear

- defendant had refused to co-operate with investigation and was aided and abetted by German prosecutors who did not help the Italians.

- the military tribunal had reviewed the evidence in respect to the defendant's refusal to participate and adjudicated that the trial could proceed.

The proceedings complied with EU norms and was not contested.

[Harveyg]

It's time to wrap up that nasty part of German history.

There is no "unfitness" for war criminals; his victims were also not asked if they were fit for torture and extinction.

On the other hand it is time to look forward. Once the last murderer has met his creator we should keep this period of history alive in museums and school books. Likewise also stop blaming the Germans for this terrible genocide as the Germans living today were not in a decision-making or understanding-what-happens-around-them age yet.

Most nations have bloody pasts; the Brits did a splendid job conquering the world which is written up nicer than reality in their history books. Ditto the French. The Americans can run Guantanamo bay, the whole world knows it and nobody brings those detainees (as they officially are called) to justice despite being there for many years.

It also means, that our Jewish friends should look forward and stop their bashing on Germans; keeping a guilty conscience alive is of no use either. After all, the official Israel has a nice, proven track of records as far as hostility (West Bank, Gaza come to mind) is concerned.

Take the man to trial, if found guilty then lock him up and throw away the key.

Basically I agree with what you say. Just want to add that when I meet a German my antennae reflexively sharpen involuntarily. Can't help it. I try and push it aside. German skinheads don't help either. Neither do German Holocaust deniers. And then there's a sometime perceived German arrogance. Hope it's just my problem...

[Harveyg]

The Holocaust was the climax of it all, an industrially organized genocide.
Besides that, the Nazis exterminated all kinds of minorities that were in their way, even in hospitals and by medical experiments.
They also killed women and children, and that's a war crime. No excuse.

And what you say about the mass bombing and destroying the most german cities where in this time at most only womans, Kids and old People lived?


This was a war crime too but NO ONE was interested!!! Some 100.000 womans, Kids and old People died in the bombings and fire!!! This had nothing todo with WAR!!!


If the above comment was made by a German it makes me wary of Germans too, for I think, obvious reasons

[Scott]

I would suggest that members steer clear of racist type posts aimed at an entire nation or nationality.

[micmichd]

The Holocaust was the climax of it all, an industrially organized genocide.
Besides that, the Nazis exterminated all kinds of minorities that were in their way, even in hospitals and by medical experiments.
They also killed women and children, and that's a war crime. No excuse.

And what you say about the mass bombing and destroying the most german cities where in this time at most only womans, Kids and old People lived?


This was a war crime too but NO ONE was interested!!! Some 100.000 womans, Kids and old People died in the bombings and fire!!! This had nothing todo with WAR!!!


If the above comment was made by a German it makes me wary of Germans too, for I think, obvious reasons

I'm from Heidelberg, Germany. Heidelberg surrendered to the allies, so it didn't get bombed. So, it *was* possible to say No.

[vogie]

It's time to wrap up that nasty part of German history.

There is no "unfitness" for war criminals; his victims were also not asked if they were fit for torture and extinction.

On the other hand it is time to look forward. Once the last murderer has met his creator we should keep this period of history alive in museums and school books. Likewise also stop blaming the Germans for this terrible genocide as the Germans living today were not in a decision-making or understanding-what-happens-around-them age yet.

Most nations have bloody pasts; the Brits did a splendid job conquering the world which is written up nicer than reality in their history books. Ditto the French. The Americans can run Guantanamo bay, the whole world knows it and nobody brings those detainees (as they officially are called) to justice despite being there for many years.

It also means, that our Jewish friends should look forward and stop their bashing on Germans; keeping a guilty conscience alive is of no use either. After all, the official Israel has a nice, proven track of records as far as hostility (West Bank, Gaza come to mind) is concerned.

Take the man to trial, if found guilty then lock him up and throw away the key.

Basically I agree with what you say. Just want to add that when I meet a German my antennae reflexively sharpen involuntarily. Can't help it. I try and push it aside. German skinheads don't help either. Neither do German Holocaust deniers. And then there's a sometime perceived German arrogance. Hope it's just my problem...

Yes, definitely your problem!

[stevenl]

Heeeeeeeeeeey , the UK civilians were bombed FIRST by the Germans, my mum endured this. The Germans reaped what they sewed........So, feeeerk of with that stuff..

You are completly wrong. The RAF bombed the Germans first. You can read it at Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_bombing_during_World_War_II

The RAF flew its first strategic bombing raid on Germany at Mönchengladbach on 11 May 1940 and in September 1940, the Luftwaffe began targeting British cities in 'The Blitz'.^[16] From 1942 onward, the British bombing campaign against Germany became less restrictive and increasingly targeted industrial sites and eventually, civilian areas.^[17][18] When the United States began flying bombing missions against Germany, it reinforced these efforts and controversial firebombings were carried out against Hamburg (1943), Dresden (1945), and other German cities.^[19]

^{And don't forget: The Brits declared the war to Germany and not different!!!}

Despite you lacklustre effort at historical revisionism, you are wrong. France and Great Britain had signed a treaty with Poland to come to its defense if attacked by Germany. The agreement had been intended to keep the peace and reassure Europeans that Germany had a line that could not be crossed. Germany declared war on Poland, and invaded, forcing the hand of France and Great Britain.

In respect to the bombing of Germany, the Commonwealth and US air forces have nothing to apologize for. The target areas were all legitimate.. Every "civilian" was an integrated part of the German killing/destruction machine. As the war demonstrated, there were no German civilians. There were however, Hitler Youth trained from an early age to kill, and to give absolute loyalty to the German war machine. There were women women considered to be baby factories and part of the war effort. All of Germany was complicit All of Germany was an integrated part of the conquest strategy. No one was a conscientious objector, and no one was a non combatant. By the time of the bombing campaign, anyone who had opposed the Nazis was either murdered or in a concentration camp waiting to die.

I'm sorry, but that is simply not true and a complete distortion of the facts.

I do agree with you though that there is nothing to apologize for, we really have to stop looking at the past with our present day morals and values.

[thousandpercent]

Did he ever gave the benefit of being ' unfit ' before sending people to death under his

supervision? I doubt it very much... oh how civil can a German be when they want to.....

How do you know he sent anyone to death? Don't you think he should be allowed to put forth a defense before you decide?

Do you mean to say that he is not capable of saying "I was just acting on orders" which is what has been often said in the past.

I'm saying the blowhards in the ThaiVisa lynch mob have no idea if this man committed the crimes he's charged with, and should stop pretending they do. I'm saying dimwits who would judge someone without a full and fair opportunity to defend against the allegations are no better than Nazis. "I was just acting on orders" tells you nothing about what the orders were or what he did.

[thousandpercent]

"In absentia" means the defendant didn't put forth a defense. I know you didn't miss reading that bit. It's obviously an education problem. In the future, look up the big words in a dictionary before you pretend to know what they mean.

You missed some key issues:

1. War crime and a military court. Different rules apply than in a basic criminal trial.

2. The defendants were aware of the court proceedings but has REFUSED to participate. More specifically;

- charges were served

- defendant was summoned to trial but declined to appear

- defendant had refused to co-operate with investigation and was aided and abetted by German prosecutors who did not help the Italians.

- the military tribunal had reviewed the evidence in respect to the defendant's refusal to participate and adjudicated that the trial could proceed.

The proceedings complied with EU norms and was not contested.

In addition to a dictionary, you would benefit from an atlas. Hamburg is not in Italy.

[snowgard]

I'm from Heidelberg, Germany. Heidelberg surrendered to the allies, so it didn't get bombed. So, it *was* possible to say No.

Hahaha, this is the stupids comment what I readed in this thread. Hahaha!!!

When Heidelberg surrendered? After the allies knocked at the door!!! Hahaha.....

During the Nazi period (1933–1945), Heidelberg was a stronghold of the NSDAP, (the National Socialist German Workers' Party) the strongest party in the elections before 1933 (the NSDAP obtained 30% at the communal elections of 1930^[9]).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heidelberg#Nazism_and_the_war_period

[MikeOboe57]

[snip]

In respect to the bombing of Germany, the Commonwealth and US air forces have nothing to apologize for. The target areas were all legitimate.. Every "civilian" was an integrated part of the German killing/destruction machine. As the war demonstrated, there were no German civilians. There were however, Hitler Youth trained from an early age to kill, and to give absolute loyalty to the German war machine. There were women women considered to be baby factories and part of the war effort. All of Germany was complicit All of Germany was an integrated part of the conquest strategy. No one was a conscientious objector, and no one was a non combatant. By the time of the bombing campaign, anyone who had opposed the Nazis was either murdered or in a concentration camp waiting to die.

What a post. But I appreciate it, as it - albeit unintentionally - shows that you have to pick from the lowest drawer to justify the indiscriminate killing of women and children, or, to stay in your terminology, "destruction of baby factories and preemptive strikes against future enemy combattants".

I see you in decent company with your statements. Radovan Karacic and Ratko Mladic used the same wording to legitimize the ethnic cleansing of Kosovo, as did the Interahamwe in Ruanda. Al Qaeda also considers every American or "Western" civilian a legitimate target and IS uses the same argument for its mass murders in the Middle East. And let us not forget what all of these persons and groups have been labelled as.

To get back on topic I suggest that Mr. Sommer - if found to be fit to stand trial and found guilty - receives the same sentence as the American officer who commanded the unit that carried out the My Lai massacre in Vietnam (with a similar number of civilian victims): 3.5 years house arrest (the only participant to be tried and found guilty btw.)

[MikeOboe57]

Edit to previous post: It was of course Bosnia-Herzegovina not Kosovo.

[Lukecan]

It's too late to send him to jail, I bet he came to Bangkok a couple of times and enjoyed all those soapies.

[micmichd]

I'm from Heidelberg, Germany. Heidelberg surrendered to the allies, so it didn't get bombed. So, it *was* possible to say No.

Hahaha, this is the stupids comment what I readed in this thread. Hahaha!!!

When Heidelberg surrendered? After the allies knocked at the door!!! Hahaha.....

During the Nazi period (19331945), Heidelberg was a stronghold of the NSDAP, (the National Socialist German Workers' Party) the strongest party in the elections before 1933 (the NSDAP obtained 30% at the communal elections of 1930^[9]).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heidelberg#Nazism_and_the_war_period

I'm afraid you're right.

"Inner resistance" is a common myth in Heidelberg, but obviously only a myth.

Edited May 31, 2015 by micmichd

[micmichd]

Those Nazis were not only killers, they were robbers, too.

Maybe too late to send Herr Sommer to jail, but he might have robbed Italian property which - incase of conviction - he might had to give back.

Edited May 31, 2015 by micmichd

[micmichd]

Sorry to say:

The Germans (at least in Heidelberg) *are* masters of dehumanizig in the name of their Gods, ie in the name of money and "science" (psychiatry), and with the help of media spreading prejudices and rumours.

The USA at least finally managed to get rid of their highest warlord, with the help of an independent press. The Germans had to be liberated by the allies, and, as far as I can see, many Germans now really want these old days of "law and order" back.

Edited May 31, 2015 by micmichd

[Scott]

Off-topic, troll posts removed. The topic is about a German Nazi.

[Pakboong]

This has to be the strangest thread I have tried to read. I have said "Huh" after a great number of posts. There were atrocities committed on both sides. The Soviets lost 27,000.000 and that is a lot of folks. I am wondering of course, whether we will be going after the children and grand children of the Nazis. At the beginning of the war, the Italians were on the same side as the Nazis. That could make those Italians guilty of treason but who knows. There are too many variables to waste any more time and money on this one. It is just not that clear what happened and why.

There were very strange facts coming out of that period. For example, how many people actually know that the safest place to spend the war was in a German POW camp. The mortality rate for Americans in those camps was barely 1%. http://guestsofthethirdreich.org/home/ That was despite many orthopedic injuries for Air Crews forced to bail.

I have never encountered a single person who was aware of that siimple fact. It is strange and applied equally to Allied Jews as POWs. They got hungry after D-Day when the rails were bombed and the Red Cross deliveries stopped.

It leaves us thinking about how much of what we have learned about that war was the victors writing their story to their benefit.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Pakboong

[micmichd]

The Nazis were quite aware that the International public opinion would send them to hell if the truth about the Holocaust would come out. In the end of WWII they seeked to destroy their concentration camps, so nobody should ever find out the truth.

In the wake of a lost World War they granted privileges to American pow's, just in case...

In the Nuremberg trials, most Nazis suddenly suffered from severe amnesia.

That's why it is so important to make a Nazi talk.

Psychiatrists say they have a way to make *everybody* talk about his past. Well, here's a case of public interest, now please demonstrate your arts.

Edited May 31, 2015 by micmichd