Advice on moving to UK with Thai wife and step daughter, Europe first?

[bolx]

After 9 years of living in Thailand, my wife and i have decided that we would prefer to live in the U.K.

To meet the VISA requirements I have come back first to look for employment to satisfy the settlement VISA requirements, leaving behind my wife and step-daughter. I've got a few worries which if anyone could help with or point me in the right direction i would be very grateful:

1. Will there be any problems bringing my step daughter over as well, provided i meet the financial requirements?

2. I remember reading somewhere that if we lived in Europe for 3 months first we would be able to get the VISAs without the financial requirements? anyone know if this is correct?

I have been offered a job for 9 months in France and am trying to figure out if it is worth going there first, before trying to get my family to the U.K.

If this is true, what about getting my family VISAs to live in France first?

Any constructive advice would be appreciated a lot. Thank you

[tebee]

Assuming your English, your family will get an automatic free visa to go with you to France.

Once you have been there 9 months and have either got a French residence card or apply for a family permit for them, you can travel to the UK and settle without the normal financial requirements. Your wife can work and has entitlement to benefits and does not have to pass a language test and there a virtually no fees to pay.

For this route your stepchild is treated as your own - I don't know about if use the settlement visa.

To me that sound much easier?

[mixxer]

article 8 human rights act 1998

[fred Kubasa]

I believe, from personal experience twice, that taking the whole family would create a financial crisis worse then getting them their own credit cards. I suggest you go alone to the UK for 8 to 10 YEARS and then, decide re the family !

[Seekingasylum]

The problem now in acquiring EU rights as a British citizen who has been economically active in another EU state and wishes to return to the UK under the EU regulations, utilizing the Surinder Singh judgement, is that the British government has incorporated a new stipulation that in order to qualify the British citizen must demonstrate that he has made that EU state ( i.e. In your case, France ) the centre of your " life". This is actually unlawful and appears nowhere in the 2004 Directive from which member states transpose the regulations into their own legislation.

The issue is now under active scrutiny by the EU who have already intimated to the British that they should abandon the requirement but these things take time - the UK was the last member state to accept a residence card as sufficient documentation for a non - EU national dependent of an EU citizen to travel from another member state to the UK.

From a practical point if you do indeed wish to return and acquire EU rights in France you should first obtain EEA family permits for your wife and stepdaughter - evidence that you have accepted the latter as your dependent will have to demonstrated. Once established in France they then will have to apply for residence cards. Once issued, they will be able to accompany you to the UK without any further documentation. If they then submit an application for a residence card to the Home Office on the basis of a Surinder Singh application you will face the problem of having to demonstrate that in acquiring your EU rights you and your family made France the centre of your life. If you look at the relevant application form, some120 pages long, you will glean what you have to " prove ". You would have the right of appeal if refused which should succeed given the refusal will be based on flawed grounds and in breach of the EU Directive 2004.

Frankly,you should seek professional advice from a qualified practitioner

[Alwyn]

Hi, your option two is the best way. You have have been living and working in FRance (in your example) for a minimum of 3 months and show that France is your domicile. Then your family can get visa based on the EU freedom of movement act (allowing freedom of movement within the EU). It was an Indian guy that first tested this route and unfortunately I don't have time right now to search after the article.

This will get you started though https://eumovement.wordpress.com/

[Mister Fixit]

It's called the 'Surinder Singh route', and is do-able, but you will have to stay in another EU country for a minimum of 90 days and work.

It's all here - http://www.immigrationboards.com/eea-route-applications/eea2-surinder-singh-3-month-success-story-t169701.html

HTH

[agogohome]

Hi, your option two is the best way. You have have been living and working in FRance (in your example) for a minimum of 3 months and show that France is your domicile. Then your family can get visa based on the EU freedom of movement act (allowing freedom of movement within the EU). It was an Indian guy that first tested this route and unfortunately I don't have time right now to search after the article.

This will get you started though https://eumovement.wordpress.com/

... Providing the UK remains part of the EU!

[Cake Monster]

About 8 years ago now, I took my Thai wife and stepdaughter to the UK, but did not go via " Europe first "

I found some very helpful people at a company called " Orchid of Siam " who are based in Surrey UK. ( Tony and Lek )

These people are one of only a very few companies registered with UK Home Office, and Thai Authorities for this purpose.

Tony and Lek were most helpful, and made the whole process so easy.

If you really are not sure on the process,s required for your plan, I would seriously recommend to you, that you seek the correct professional advice, and possible help from said professionals, and not use a " take your girlfriend home visa company based in Thailand "

OK, this will cost you about 1K UK ( guessing ) for all the advice and help, but this will be small money compared with trying to do things yourself, and having things go wrong ( as well as time factor ).

Good Luck

Edited May 30, 2015 by Cake Monster

[Seekingasylum]

You should not be swayed by many of the posts appearing herein which, frankly, although well meaning, are mostly hall baked and worthless.

As I have said, you should seek professional advice from an OISC registered advisor or member of the Law Society. Family migration is a complex matter and should be treated with the importance it is due.

[Seekingasylum]

If you are minded to seek an opinion in Thailand, then the only company worth considering from my own knowledge would be the sponsor of this forum, Thaivisa Express, which employs a chap called Tony Martin who worked for the Home Office for over 30 years and I believe attained the rank of Chief Immigration Officer. He has a wealth of experience in visa matters and from his regular and frequent posts on this board keeps abreast of significant changes to legislation, practice and procedure.

If I were you I should discuss with him the prospect of a full consultation.

[tebee]

If the OP has a job in France to go to, he has sorted out the only hard part of the European route. If he's intelligent enough to read up on the internet what steps he needs to take and follow them without trying to take shortcuts then there is no need to employ visa agents as there is no shortage of free advice on the various forums and Facebook groups. While not everyone there knows what they are talking about any errors will soon be corrected by someone who does.

I suppose it all depends what sort of a person you are. If you are a cheapskate, do-it-yourself kind of guy who likes the challenge of finding out how things work themselves ( me!) then you can do it cheaply yourself. If you are a rich guy who like to pay others to solve your problems for you, then go find an agent to do it all for you.

I've done everything myself and my wife and step-son now have 6 month UK visas in their passports, though we don't intend to move back there full time yet .

The current UK regulations are ridiculous. They make you jump through so many hoops for no good reason other than so the government can say it is doing "something" about immigration. I run my own business in France ( OK not very profitable, but I'm working in my hobby), my wife is a doctor and in the family we own outright 4 properties in France and 6 in Bangkok. But we would not qualify for a UK spouse visa - if however we were to sell a couple of the houses and lose the rental income and stick the money in bank at 2% interest we would qualify !

[7by7]

article 8 human rights act 1998

Article 8 of the ECHR is a qualified right and does not apply in most family migration cases.

I believe, from personal experience twice, that taking the whole family would create a financial crisis worse then getting them their own credit cards. I suggest you go alone to the UK for 8 to 10 YEARS and then, decide re the family !

Whilst the financial requirement is unfair and difficult for many to meet, especially ex pats returning home with their non EEA family, and the fees for the visa, FLR and ILR plus the new NHS surcharge make the whole process over the 5 years expensive; your suggestion is complete and utter rubbish.

[7by7]

The problem now in acquiring EU rights as a British citizen who has been economically active in another EU state and wishes to return to the UK under the EU regulations, utilizing the Surinder Singh judgement, is that the British government has incorporated a new stipulation that in order to qualify the British citizen must demonstrate that he has made that EU state ( i.e. In your case, France ) the centre of your " life". This is actually unlawful and appears nowhere in the 2004 Directive from which member states transpose the regulations into their own legislation.........

With respect, SA, does the "centre of life" requirement not come from the case of O and B v The Netherlands?

From Free Movement

New case: O and B v The Netherlands

The most important change since Surinder Singh itself is the new case of O and B v The Netherlands Case C-456/12, handed down by the Grand Chamber of the Court of the European Union on 12 March 2014. Without much mentioning Surinder Singh, the judgment completely re-writes the legal basis of the earlier case and sets out important and binding new guidance........

........The following important points emerge:

1. A residence period of at least three months is required (para 54)

2. Weekend visits and holidays do not count as residence for this purpose (para 59)

3. Any citizen of the Union can potentially benefit from this right, not just workers and the self employed (references to Article 7 of Citizens Directive 2004/38 , e.g. para 56, and to Article 21 of the TFEU, e.g. para 54)

4. During the period of residence family life must have been “created or strengthened” (para 51)

5. Abuse is impermissible (para 58)

Surely points 1,2 and 4, especially 4, are the reasoning behind the "centre of life" requirement?

However, whilst the UK has been quick to implement this part of the ruling, they have yet to implement point 3, and still insist that the British citizen has been working, employed or self employed, in the other EEA state.

But as the OP says he will have a job in France for 9 months, he will be ok on this point.

[tebee]

It's not the human right act that applies when using the European route to return to the UK, its Directive 2004/38/EC concerning the rights of citizens of the Union and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the EU and EEA member states.

[a99az]

I have sent you a PM yes EU route is good free and easy.

Edited May 30, 2015 by a99az

[7by7]

Teebee, from what you have said, I think the Surinder Singh route is ideal for your purposes.

As well as the links already provided by myself and others, see this from UKVI.

But should you decide to move directly from Thailand to the UK, a couple of points:-

<snip>

in the family we own outright 4 properties in France and 6 in Bangkok. But we would not qualify for a UK spouse visa - if however we were to sell a couple of the houses and lose the rental income and stick the money in bank at 2% interest we would qualify !

Rental income from property owned in the UK and/or overseas can be used to meet the financial requirement. See part 6 Non employment Income and specifically 6.2. Property rental further guidance in Appendix FM Section 1.7 - Financial Requirement.

If you want further guidance on this point I suggest you contact an OISC registered advisor in the UK or Thailand. As far as I am aware, the only OISC registered advisor operating in Thailand is one of the forum sponsors; Thai Visa Express.

As seekingasylum says earlier, a solicitor in the UK can also legally advise for a fee; but if you decide to follow this route you should choose one who specialises in immigration law.

Bolx from what you have said in your OP, I think the Surinder Singh route is ideal for your purposes.

As well as the links already provided by myself and others, see this from UKVI.

But should you decide to move directly from Thailand to the UK, a couple of points:-

You ask in your OP

1. Will there be any problems bringing my step daughter over as well, provided i meet the financial requirements?

The main hurdle in such cases is showing that your wife, the girl's mother, is exercising sole responsibility over the child and has been for some time.

See SET7.8 What is sole responsibility?

As you can see from that, this should be relatively easy to do in cases such as yours where parent and child are applying together and have been living together prior to the application.

The difficulties more often arise when the parent is already in the UK and the child is applying to join them.

But if you do follow the Surinder Singh route, this wont be a problem. Step children are qualifying family members under the directive.

Edit: I got the OP and another poster confused, so have edited this to differentiate between the two. Apologies for my error.

Edited May 30, 2015 by 7by7

[a99az]

Just to say having taken the EU route with my family (wife and two girls) I found it easy fast (total time 13weeks) and free. So now we live in the UK wife has NI number British residents card for five years no need to do more just renew it in 2018. We are now permanent and habitual residents. I am now drawing pension the girls doing very well in school. So to all the guys with silly comments I guess you don't know how to sort things properly and make life hard for yourselves.

[transam]

Just to say having taken the EU route with my family (wife and two girls) I found it easy fast (total time 13weeks) and free. So now we live in the UK wife has NI number British residents card for five years no need to do more just renew it in 2018. We are now permanent and habitual residents. I am now drawing pension the girls doing very well in school. So to all the guys with silly comments I guess you don't know how to sort things properly and make life hard for yourselves.

Wish I was accepted in LOS after taking care of LOS kids....................

[hawksway]

This is a minefield and you should refrain from taking any advice from unqualified opinion on these forums. It's going to cost you, but the most sensible approach is to get an Immigration specialist Lawyer in the UK to handle this for you.

As always Immigration Officials at UK Border have wide powers of discretion and are being pressurised by the UK Government to apply them conservatively.

[7by7]

Edit: I got the OP and another poster confused, so have edited this to differentiate between the two. Apologies for my error.

Still made a mistake, and the window for editing closed!

Teebee, please ignore the first three lines in above post; they should have been addressed to Bolx.

Many apologies again for my stupid errors and any confusion they have caused.

[tebee]

We are already in France - at least for about 50% of the time ! Both my wife and son have their French residence cards already and have already used them to visit the UK.

Longer term, I'm not sure if we will return to UK or not. Problem is both wife and son are doctors, but France does not recognize their qualifications. Am currently trying to find out my my son can do his postgraduate training here and end up with a recognized qualification. If not he can do it in the UK, so we will all probably be moving back there.

Problem with the houses is they want the income in my name and the houses in BKK are in the wife's name - she bought most of them before we got together anyway. We are trying to sell most of them now, but the ones we are buying in France, we are putting in my stepson's name as I'm 61 and I see no point in giving the French state 30% of their value when I die in inheritance taxes.

My point is to conform to the UK's requirements is possible, but stupid from my point of view. If we sold a couple of houses and I put the money in the bank in my name I'd qualify under the savings rule, but we'd be £500 a month worse off due to the loss of rental income!

[tebee]

@7by7 Ah ! ok I replied to it anyway - will now know to ignore it in the future ...........

[bob009]

Don't do it you will regret moving back. 9-5 wearing a watch wear long trousers and socks and people queing.You won't be able to handle it.!!!!!!

[MaeJoMTB]

Via France or Spain looks good to me, no VISA fee to pay, no difficult forms to fill out or evidence to provide, Euro at 1.4 to the GBP.

[thejcb]

My advice is simple. Don't do it !

[7by7]

<snip>

Problem with the houses is they want the income in my name and the houses in BKK are in the wife's name.......

For the initial visa, if using earned income only the British partner's income can be used; which is ridiculous.

However, for unearned income the appendix says;

6.1.2. Unless otherwise specified, the specified non-employment income which the applicant’s partner and/or the applicant have received in the 12 months prior to the date of application can be counted towards the financial requirement.

6.1.3. The relevant asset on which any income is based must be in the name of the applicant, their partner or both jointly and held or owned at the date of application.

I cannot see anything that says rental income comes under "Unless otherwise specified" so I think your wife's property in Bangkok can be used; but I suggest you seek conformation of that from someone more knowledgeable on the intricacies of the financial requirement than I.

But if your wife and step son already have French residence cards then they may possibly qualify under Surinder Singh, though that you only spend about 50% of your time there may disqualify them on the "centre of life" requirement. Again, I suggest you seek professional advice on this.

One major point, you say your step son is looking to do post graduate training. If he is over 18, he no longer qualifies as your family member under the EEA rules nor as a dependent under the UK's immigration rules and so will have to qualify for UK settlement in his own right.

[tebee]

We are currently trying to sell off the BKK houses as they become empty, once we have done that wife will be back in France 100% of the time. It is unfortunately taking longer than we hoped, but the wife has a temporary job at an international hospital while she is back, so that helps make up for the lost rental income. Son will finish Uni soon, then he will be back too.

I got him his French residence card on the basis him being a dependant adult as he was already over 21, but still at university, so we are still supporting him. He can use this card to return to the UK, though, as a dr, his postgraduate training is paid employment, so I'm not sure what will happen when he applies for his EAA2, but by this time he will have his licence to practise and could get in as a skilled immigrant. After 5 years he will have permanent residence in his own right anyway.

[MaeJoMTB]

One major point, you say your step son is looking to do post graduate training. If he is over 18, he no longer qualifies as your family member under the EEA rules nor as a dependent under the UK's immigration rules and so will have to qualify for UK settlement in his own right.

EEA

I thought it was 21?

Edited May 30, 2015 by MaeJoMTB

[7by7]

You're right; my mistake.

Plus, as tebee says, over 21 if still dependent on their parent(s).

Edited May 30, 2015 by 7by7