Advice on moving to UK with Thai wife and step daughter, Europe first?

[Seekingasylum]

The problem now in acquiring EU rights as a British citizen who has been economically active in another EU state and wishes to return to the UK under the EU regulations, utilizing the Surinder Singh judgement, is that the British government has incorporated a new stipulation that in order to qualify the British citizen must demonstrate that he has made that EU state ( i.e. In your case, France ) the centre of your " life". This is actually unlawful and appears nowhere in the 2004 Directive from which member states transpose the regulations into their own legislation.........

With respect, SA, does the "centre of life" requirement not come from the case of O and B v The Netherlands?

From Free Movement

New case: O and B v The Netherlands

The most important change since Surinder Singh itself is the new case of O and B v The Netherlands Case C-456/12, handed down by the Grand Chamber of the Court of the European Union on 12 March 2014. Without much mentioning Surinder Singh, the judgment completely re-writes the legal basis of the earlier case and sets out important and binding new guidance........

........The following important points emerge:

1. A residence period of at least three months is required (para 54)

2. Weekend visits and holidays do not count as residence for this purpose (para 59)

3. Any citizen of the Union can potentially benefit from this right, not just workers and the self employed (references to Article 7 of Citizens Directive 2004/38 , e.g. para 56, and to Article 21 of the TFEU, e.g. para 54)

4. During the period of residence family life must have been “created or strengthened” (para 51)

5. Abuse is impermissible (para 58)

Surely points 1,2 and 4, especially 4, are the reasoning behind the "centre of life" requirement?

However, whilst the UK has been quick to implement this part of the ruling, they have yet to implement point 3, and still insist that the British citizen has been working, employed or self employed, in the other EEA state.

But as the OP says he will have a job in France for 9 months, he will be ok on this point.

No, this is wrong.

The Home Office's current view is that their interpretation of the judgement, i.e a period of residence in the EU state must comprise a core change in the 'centre of one's life', is EU compliant - it isn't. They have stretched the creation or strengthening of family life to mean something else entirely and interpreted it as moving one's centre of life from the UK to the other member state. In practical terms they are demanding that Surinder Singh applicants should demonstrate this by means that include a forsaking of any financial interest in their home state ( mortgages, property ownership) in favour of establishing a financial bedrock in the adopted EU state and, my own personal favourite, show for example any charitable works they may have undertaken in the new state.

The issue of non compliance notices against the UK is moving ahead inexorably to force them to give up their daft interpretation but, so far, they are digging their heels in and dragging the issue out but the consensus is that they will have to accept the O and B judgement as it was intended.

Anyone thinking they are going to breeze through a Surinder Singh application because they and their family lived together for three months in wherever better think again. A refusal is likely and a wait of another year for the appeal is inevitable.

[beano2274]

I am looking at this route back to the UK, my wife has been in Germany with me for 20 months, has a Residence Permit, has even learned German, so no worries about showing family life moved to Germany. It is a route I would recommend to anyone if they have the opportunity to work in Europe first, the next stage is getting a job in the UK.

[7by7]

<snip>

The Home Office's current view is that their interpretation of the judgement, i.e a period of residence in the EU state must comprise a core change in the 'centre of one's life', is EU compliant - it isn't. They have stretched the creation or strengthening of family life to mean something else entirely and interpreted it as moving one's centre of life from the UK to the other member state. In practical terms they are demanding that Surinder Singh applicants should demonstrate this by means that include a forsaking of any financial interest in their home state ( mortgages, property ownership) in favour of establishing a financial bedrock in the adopted EU state and, my own personal favourite, show for example any charitable works they may have undertaken in the new state........

As far as I am aware, regulation 9 of the Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006 (as amended) does not contain such requirements.(The linked to site is a private one, not a UK government or EU one).

Also; from the European Operational Policy Team guidance

7. Regulation 9(3) specifies the factors to be considered when deciding whether a British citizen has transferred the centre of their life to another member state. These include, but are not limited to:

a. the period of residence in another EEA member state as a worker or self-employed person;

b. the location of the British citizen’s principal residence; and

c. the degree of integration of the British citizen in the host member state.

The criteria are indicative and it is not necessary to meet all three.

In the examples which follow (Paras 8 to 14) I can see no mention of the draconian ones you have listed.

That guidance is dated 1 Jan 14; has a more strict one including the requirements you list been issued since?

Edited May 30, 2015 by 7by7

[bolx]

Thanks for your help everyone, Its certainly given me a lot to think about and France looks like it might be the best option first. I appreciate everyone taking the time to help and send me messages, it certainly shows the value of this site.

I might contact a lawyer as suggested and make a decision from there. I'm still a little worried about this route with my step daughter but hopefully will be able to work everything out.

Thanks again x

[fred Kubasa]

article 8 human rights act 1998

Article 8 of the ECHR is a qualified right and does not apply in most family migration cases.

I believe, from personal experience twice, that taking the whole family would create a financial crisis worse then getting them their own credit cards. I suggest you go alone to the UK for 8 to 10 YEARS and then, decide re the family !

Whilst the financial requirement is unfair and difficult for many to meet, especially ex pats returning home with their non EEA family, and the fees for the visa, FLR and ILR plus the new NHS surcharge make the whole process over the 5 years expensive; your suggestion is complete and utter rubbish.

I did, in fact marry 2 Pilipino women, who had children of previous alliances, ( not marriages ), and while they were in the Philippines they lived under extreme hardships but, when and shortly after their arrival in the US they became " I wannas" I want this, I want that, ordering secret credit cards, embezzling from family funds & actually stealing. One was a senior nurse with a master's degree and, after meeting at least 35 other US/Pilipino matches found every woman, yes, every one, acted the same and some, much worse, one even trying to arrange, on a Philippine's holiday, her husbands assassination ! Now tell us about your PERSONAL experience with a situation of this type which qualifies you to call my comment rubbish !

"rubbish " !

[beano2274]

Fred Kubsa, just cause it happened to you does not mean every woman is the same.

My Thai wife has been in Germany for 20 months, has her own bank account, into which I give her money, but she does not spend all of it, saves it and also does not steal or anything like that.

Suggesting a guy goes to live in the UK alone without his wife and kids for 8 to 10 years is a bit of a prattish thing to suggest, that would make more problems in any marriage.

[tebee]

If you are worried about your step daughter then definitely use the European route . Her EEA rights under this are much better and automatic.

Under European free movement regulations ( the Directive 2004/38/EC I mentioned earlier) step children are considered full family members and given the same rights as spouses and full children.

You need only apply for a free short term Schengen visa for them to go there and can apply for the carte de sejour when you get there.

Maybe I'm just getting to be an old cynic, but I've seen too many cases where the lawyer seems to recommends what will make the most money for the lawyer, not what is best for the client.

[Seekingasylum]

Err, why would the OP's family apply for Schengen visas and then carte de sejours?

Listening to lay people offering their unqualified advice on a forum without any personal responsibility is better than a professional opinion?

[Seekingasylum]

7by7,

The UK has yet again invented a regulation which has no basis in the EU Directive 2004, the EU Regulations 2006 or any subsequent judgement from the Courts. Their regulation 9(2)c etc relating to Surinder Singh case applications for residence cards is not compliant with EU law and is quite simply an invention dreamed up by May and her lawyers.

But, if you wish to see how the Home Office are interpreting their own nonsense then I suggest you actually read the relevant application form, now 129 pages long.

It is no different to the regulation the Home Office inserted back in 2006/7 in their transposition of the EU Regularions 2006 which sought to curtail freedom of movement of non- EU spouses of EU nationals entering the UK from outside the EU. That was blown out of the water by Akrich/ Metock in 2008 as indeed will be this " centre of life " nonsense.

There is no requirement in the Directive 2004 to demonstrate one has shifted one's centre of life to qualify for freedom of movement.Period.

Their European Policy group is simply churning out self serving twaddle at May's behest to close a loophole that annoys her,,as if freedom of movement was a loophole.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Seekingasylum

[dbrenn]

Just to say having taken the EU route with my family (wife and two girls) I found it easy fast (total time 13weeks) and free. So now we live in the UK wife has NI number British residents card for five years no need to do more just renew it in 2018. We are now permanent and habitual residents. I am now drawing pension the girls doing very well in school. So to all the guys with silly comments I guess you don't know how to sort things properly and make life hard for yourselves.

A UK permit for 5 years? So this bypasses all the UK visa / FLR / ILR / Language and health test requirements. Wow, and well done.

What happens when the 5 years is up? Can your wife apply for ILR or ciizenship?

And is it possible to apply having just spent time (no job) in the EU country)?

[Seekingasylum]

Have you not understood any of the previous posts?

[dbrenn]

If you are worried about your step daughter then definitely use the European route . Her EEA rights under this are much better and automatic.

Under European free movement regulations ( the Directive 2004/38/EC I mentioned earlier) step children are considered full family members and given the same rights as spouses and full children.

You need only apply for a free short term Schengen visa for them to go there and can apply for the carte de sejour when you get there.

Maybe I'm just getting to be an old cynic, but I've seen too many cases where the lawyer seems to recommends what will make the most money for the lawyer, not what is best for the client.

I'm British / Thai / Australian, and my Wife is an Australian / Thai dual national.

If I'm reading this correctly, we could both go to France for a three month holiday, get a residence card for my wife there, then she could go to the UK and bypass the requirement for a partner visa, being allowed to stay there for a full five years?

Is this doable with no job in France?

Sounds too good to be true.

Edited June 1, 2015 by dbrenn

[dbrenn]

Have you not understood any of the previous posts?

I'm just trying to summarise my understanding, so if you don't want to respond in a sensible and informative way, then please don't respond at all.

Thank you.

Edited June 1, 2015 by dbrenn

[dbrenn]

If you are worried about your step daughter then definitely use the European route . Her EEA rights under this are much better and automatic.

Under European free movement regulations ( the Directive 2004/38/EC I mentioned earlier) step children are considered full family members and given the same rights as spouses and full children.

You need only apply for a free short term Schengen visa for them to go there and can apply for the carte de sejour when you get there.

Maybe I'm just getting to be an old cynic, but I've seen too many cases where the lawyer seems to recommends what will make the most money for the lawyer, not what is best for the client.

I'm British / Thai / Australian, and my Wife is an Australian / Thai dual national.

If I'm reading this correctly, we could both go to France for a three month holiday, get a residence card for my wife there, then she could go to the UK and bypass the requirement for a partner visa, being allowed to stay there for a full five years?

Is this doable with no job in France?

Sounds too good to be true.

And I'm wondering whether people actually succeed in getting the UK residence card by simply residing in an EU country with no job.

[tebee]

Err, why would the OP's family apply for Schengen visas and then carte de sejours?

Listening to lay people offering their unqualified advice on a forum without any personal responsibility is better than a professional opinion?

Because that's exactly the way the French government advise you do it. I did exactly this 3 years ago and researched extensively - this way was suggested on one of their sites as it was all fairly simple paperwork and free. Unfortunately I've not got the link to hand now.

You apply for the Short term Schengen visas as family of EEA citizen in Bangkok as you need to get to France - these are free and you normally get 90 days in 6 months easily.

Once you are in France within that 90 days you go to your local Prefecture to apply for their carte de Sejours. First visit they will give you a list of papers they require - this is not standardised in France, so the list will vary depending on where you apply. They may indeed ask for more than they are allowed to under EU law, you have the choice just to give them this or argue the point with Solvit. I took the easy way.

When you have got everything, which may include 3 months payslips, you go back, hand in your dossier and they should issue you with a récépissé de demande de titre de séjour, which is in effect a temporary card. This should be issued immediately. In practice they take a few months to do this ( this is France!) they will send you a registered letter, which you have to take back to collect the récépissé.

Some months later, if your papers where all in order, they will repeat this for the proper card , which should be for 5 years. In practice they seem to issue a one year one first. As the OP is only there for 9 months it's very probable it will not have got the card proper by the time he want's to go.

Easiest thing then is to apply for a UK family permit for his family to return to the UK.

French link for the procedures http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F2653.xhtml

Edited June 1, 2015 by tebee

[transam]

Are folk talking "loop holes" here..............?

[tebee]

@dbrenn no you can't go for a holiday - the UK government's current definition of exercising treaty rights is working there - this does include self-employment, so you can set yourself up as on online eBay seller for instance. You also need to have moved your centre of life to that country. This definition may be illegal and does not exactly conform to what the courts have suggested , but it is the one that is currently in force.

As to it being a loop hole - I'm sure the British government consider it as one, but it's part of the law and a consequence of EEA freedom of movement. It's no more of a loophole than say paying yourself dividends instead of salary to avoid NI contributions.

[dbrenn]

@dbrenn no you can't go for a holiday - the UK government's current definition of exercising treaty rights is working there - this does include self-employment, so you can set yourself up as on online eBay seller for instance. You also need to have moved your centre of life to that country. This definition may be illegal and does not exactly conform to what the courts have suggested , but it is the one that is currently in force.

As to it being a loop hole - I'm sure the British government consider it as one, but it's part of the law and a consequence of EEA freedom of movement. It's no more of a loophole than say paying yourself dividends instead of salary to avoid NI contributions.

Thanks for the reply. Hmmm ... "centre of life" could mean leasing a room for 3 months and working on ebay. I suppose that 'Jobseeking' qualifies and means just that, i.e., not necessarily finding a job but looking for one.

Interesting.

[jpinx]

Fascinating thread and a good point of reference for many.

[tebee]

There is a good guide specificity for people using Ireland, but with much applicable whichever country you use - look or google for "Surinder Singh for newbies"

one copy here https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B64cBIJj_CKucGF3UlF3cG5qdVE/view

[Donutz]

Err, why would the OP's family apply for Schengen visas and then carte de sejours?

Listening to lay people offering their unqualified advice on a forum without any personal responsibility is better than a professional opinion?

The general advice (which obviously may be different in individual cases) which I've read from experienced immigration lawyers and experts for those who live outside the EU and wish to return home via the European route is to get a free, minimal paperwork Schengen type C visa for the family members (see Schengen sticky thread) and after arrival apply for ressidency, get the EU/EEA family member residence card sorted out (details are different for each EU country) , settle in and after a while (atleast 3 months) you may migrate to your home EU country with the family. One could for example also start the immigration process from abroad (Thailand) but some countries take (many) months to complete this, time which very well could be better spend actually staying in Europe together.

Tebee's post seem very sound to me. If for the OP a different approach would work better would depend on the OPs specific details and preferances. If the OP read's more in the SS route it shouldn't be too hard to figur out what is most likely to work best for them.

[7by7]

Now tell us about your (7by7) PERSONAL experience with a situation of this type which qualifies you to call my comment rubbish !

"rubbish " !

Does living in the UK with my Thai wife for over 15 years, during which she has not run up any debts and also supported me during periods of unemployment and sickness, count?

[transam]

Now tell us about your (7by7) PERSONAL experience with a situation of this type which qualifies you to call my comment rubbish !

"rubbish " !

Does living in the UK with my Thai wife for over 15 years, during which she has not run up any debts and also supported me during periods of unemployment and sickness, count?

UK Laws were very different then..

[7by7]

dbrenn, this post in another topic goes into the Surinder Singh requirements in some detail.

You will see it is a bit more complicated than simply "leasing a room for 3 months and working on ebay."

You will also see that, at present, the UK will only consider Surinder Singh applications if the British partner has been working in the other EEA state; not from jobseekers or others.

[dbrenn]

dbrenn, this post in another topic goes into the Surinder Singh requirements in some detail.

You will see it is a bit more complicated than simply "leasing a room for 3 months and working on ebay."

You will also see that, at present, the UK will only consider Surinder Singh applications if the British partner has been working in the other EEA state; not from jobseekers or others.

OK thanks. Interesting info which I was hitherto unaware of, and may be useful in the future, if the UK remains in the EU that is. I came across more info here http://surinder-singh-route.info/

[tebee]

Surinder Singh is under EEA free movement laws not EU laws, so the UK would have to leave the EEA free trade area as well for it to end.

[MaeJoMTB]

Surinder Singh is under EEA free movement laws not EU laws, so the UK would have to leave the EEA free trade area as well for it to end.

What he says.

Swiss are EEA but not EU, and have the same rights of free movement.

While the UK might possibly leave the EU, no way they will leave the EEA.

No votes in it 'cos none of the plebs in the UK know what the EEA is.

Edited June 1, 2015 by MaeJoMTB

[Mister Fixit]

Just to say having taken the EU route with my family (wife and two girls) I found it easy fast (total time 13weeks) and free. So now we live in the UK wife has NI number British residents card for five years no need to do more just renew it in 2018. We are now permanent and habitual residents. I am now drawing pension the girls doing very well in school. So to all the guys with silly comments I guess you don't know how to sort things properly and make life hard for yourselves.

In that case, I think it would be helpful if you were to write an account of the process you took to achieve this, so that you can help others without the experience you have gained ...

[DDuval]

Now tell us about your (7by7) PERSONAL experience with a situation of this type which qualifies you to call my comment rubbish !

"rubbish " !

Does living in the UK with my Thai wife for over 15 years, during which she has not run up any debts and also supported me during periods of unemployment and sickness, count?

I guess your of the same age, I always think these horror stories are the 60 year old men with 20 year old wives/GF who get conned :-)

[a99az]

Hi

I have made the move to the UK with my wife and two girls. I did this via Spain. It was very easy cost nothing and was all done in just over 12 weeks. So let me fill you in on the facts.

1) If you are married or with a partner your wife / partner can apply for a FREE visa to any EU country you fly together. We went to Spain.

2) once in the EU your wife/ partner needs to apply for her residents card free or just admin charge of a few euros you will need one too. You also need to be there rather working ( I became self employed and paid min wage tax and did nothing for 12 weeks) They must provide her with residents card within 90 days under EU law or have a very good reason why not.

3) Then once she has her Card you can apply for a family permit from British Embassy and this will be provided within 14days again free of charge.

4) Then just go to the UK. Once there get your wife a NI number then apply for her British residents card. That is all she will ever need after five years she can simply renew it. Nothing else to do unless she wants Brit citizen ship then she needs to do the English knowledge but she does not have to do it.

NOTE

It is best if you have marriage cert that is certified by Thai foreign office dated within last few weeks before you leave and a copy of this and marriage cert in the language of the country you intend to go to.

When you get to the UK you are best off getting both of you settled in fast and join get everything you can so you can show this to the bodes that need it that you both are Habitually Resident in the UK. Doctors Bank Dentist Library club

Like I said it's fairly straight forward many go to southern Ireland as it's near to the UK and same language also easy to pop to the UK if you need to but YOU must be able to work or be in full time study.

GOOD LUCK