Thai education: Funding priorities deemed a key problem, not lack of cash

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EDUCATION
Funding priorities deemed a key problem, not lack of cash
CHULARAT SAENGPASSA
THE NATION



Education budget study shows little spent on improving quality, too much on primary schooling

BANGKOK: -- ALLOCATION of education funding needs to focus more on reducing gaps than giving an equal portion of money to all, researchers said at a recent forum.

"The government should take into account differences among schools - such as geographical differences and their students' different needs," Assoc Prof Chaiyuth Punyasavatsut told the Thailand Economics in Focus seminar.

He lamented that because Thailand did not manage its educational budget properly, it could only boost educational opportunities - but not yet increase the quality of education.

Chaiyuth has led efforts by lecturers from Thammasat University's (TU) Faculty of Economics - and their peers from University of Thai Chamber of Commerce - to list national educational expenses for the first time.

When their study was completed, it emerged that Thailand spent more than Bt800 billion on education in 2013 - a huge amount but one that did not really translate into good quality. Of the total sum, 80 per cent came from the government.

In 2013, the government dedicated about a quarter of the annual budget to education. Such a proportion was higher than the average for the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) countries.

The study therefore concluded that Thailand had adequate resources for the provision of educational services.

"Since 1999, Thailand has allocated a budget even bigger than Unesco recommends for education. But the country's educational performance remains low," Quality Learning Foundation's policy specialist Dr Kraiyos Patrawart said at the same forum.

When categorised into educational levels, the study found that 72 per cent of funding was allocated to basic education - and just 17 per cent to higher education.

"So much of the money goes to primary education, in particular. The amount of money for vocational education and secondary education, meanwhile, is too low," Chaiyuth said.

He noted that a close review showed educational costs were mainly related to teachers' salaries and only 5 per cent went to development of teaching or learning materials and student-development activities.

"In other words, the country has spent relatively little on improving educational quality," Chaiyuth said.

In his eyes, Thailand needs to adjust the allocation of its budget by shifting the focus to the need to reduce gaps - and to mobilise more resources from non-government organisations (NGOs) and the business sector for educational purposes.

The study by Chaiyuth's team revealed that schools supervised by the Office of Basic Education Commission (Obec) got Bt314 billion in funding in 2013. Of this amount, Bt301.5 billion or 96 per cent came from the government.

Obec received a budget of Bt302.76 billion. Local administrative bodies provided Bt19.5 billion for students' free milk and lunches. On top of this, the Student Loan Office channelled Bt17 million to Obec-run schools that year, while households forked out about Bt9.4 billion for these schools.

Non-government organisations (NGOs) gave a further Bt2.45 billion and groups overseas offered Bt140 million.

"NGOs and the private sector should be encouraged to contribute more to the country's education," Chaiyuth said.

He also believed the government should merge small schools in towns so resources can |be pooled to improve key schools in each tambon.

"The improved schools can then be good alternatives for parents and their children," he said.

His view echoed recommendations from the World Bank, which suggested that smaller rural schools be merged and reorganised into larger institutions as such moves could optimise teaching efficiency and offer better-quality education in the classroom.

According to the World Bank, Thailand could slash the number of classrooms with less than one teacher per class from the current 110,725, to 12,600 simply by merging its 9,421 "non-isolated large schools and 16,943 non-isolated small schools".

Thailand has more than 400,000 teachers and educational personnel for its 12 million or so students. Yet, efficiency and educational quality are lacking.

So far, Chaiyuth did not think the government should close small schools in remote areas where no investors would be interested in setting up educational institutes.

Kraiyos said the key to improving educational quality was no longer about finding adequate funds, but about budget efficiency.

"Thailand already has adequate budget for its education. The country's educational budget has clearly increased by 7 per cent annually on average. Thai children's educational performance, however, is low," he said.

Given that some countries spent less but achieved better results, Thailand's Education Ministry needed to seriously review its budgetary approach, he said.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Funding-priorities-deemed-a-key-problem-not-lack-o-30261838.html


-- The Nation 2015-06-08

[clockman]

There is only one word for it, Corruption!

[zaphod reborn]

The Nation tries to confuse the public with its convoluted flowchart. Here's one that is simple and truthful:

Lots of funding -> MOE and School Administrators Take Everything -> No Money Spent on Improving Student Education

[Praematura]

They spent a chunk of their budget giving out tablets, which for my wife's family never materialized so someone got paid.

The masses will not progress because the elites know what happens if they move up the socio-economic ladder, they know their rights and vote. So in steps dear leader.

There is dear leaders faction happy to keep the status quo and then the countervailing desire to improve education levels so this country can transition into a service based economy.

Now they have labor costs of a middle income service economy with sub-standard quality workers that are basically good for farming or working in a factory. As these costs keep going up and the factories are moving so Thailand is left in a situation where you can't put the genie back in the bottle (roll back labor costs.)

Can't think of a country where this has been the case. Thailand should be the most fluent in English and becoming a hub for services yet most don't speak English.

[Robby nz]

No it isn't funding priorities it is quality of education.

I read a report this morning on a study, which I cant find now, which found that kids IQ actually dropped when they started school.

That's right school made them less intelligent.

What is needed is a huge lift in the quality of education in this country starting with the teachers and the conditions they work under, there are some good dedicated teachers and some not so good but the curriculums they are expect to teach and the rote or copying from books prevents them doing their best for the kids.

The first thing that is needed is dedicated teachers collages or universities, or what ever they want to call them, which teach teaching rather than a degree in general education at a standard Uni where they are then sent to schools as trainee teachers and taught to do things the old teachers way.

These collages need to be based on overseas models with specialist subjects taught so as well as basic primary teachers they can turn out math, English, science and other specialist teachers. There needs to be facility for those who are already teaching to do (be sent on) refresher courses to update their teaching skills.

The whole curricula needs revamping and in particular the culture of "Don't ask the teacher questions they will lose face if they don't know the answer".

Every school should have parent input, for instance; 'Parent teacher committees' that meet at least monthly.

There must also be school inspectors who would meet and work with the parents on these committees with parents having direct access to the inspectors.

Bad teachers would soon be weeded out and either dismissed of sent back to a training collage, school directors would have to be accountable.

All schools must audit accounts which must be approved by the parent committees and sent to a school audit office.

Some may say parents don't care but I will tell you this, there are enough parents of kids at any school who do care and want to see their kids get a better education and a better deal.

[Emster23]

I immediately thought of the $10,000,000 that went to FIFA VP in Trinidad to improve football, but all went to him. Putting more money into a crooked card game isn't going to raise your chances of winning. Why is education sector so opposed to education? Are they so daft they can't see what finally trickles down to students is not education?

[treehouse_ monkey]

I have been an educator for the past 47 years. I retired from formal teaching in 2006 but have continued to assist several schools to upgrade their English language curriculum and methodology for reaching students. I taught part-time for a private school for one term. When I arrived at the school they asked me to furnish them with lesson plans lesson plans and all the other types of materials. worksheets etc. I told them to relax since I had been a professional educator, a principal, an institute president and a director of English for an entire nation. They agreed to let me do it my way. The bag of tricks I utilized was based on successful teaching methodology and role play. The end of the three month term the students tested for the best high school in the province. 89 of the 94 grade six students succeeded in getting in. The students were confident in speaking English. No more :"tang - q t-shirt." The Thai approach to teaching English is most often programmed to fail. Unfortunately, even at the university level. Schools should focus on their ability to communicate in realistic situations.

[cumgranosalum]

Why spend the money on actual education when you can spend it on a magnificent marble-lined entrance hall?

[cumgranosalum]

No it isn't funding priorities it is quality of education.

I read a report this morning on a study, which I cant find now, which found that kids IQ actually dropped when they started school.

That's right school made them less intelligent.

What is needed is a huge lift in the quality of education in this country starting with the teachers and the conditions they work under, there are some good dedicated teachers and some not so good but the curriculums they are expect to teach and the rote or copying from books prevents them doing their best for the kids.

The first thing that is needed is dedicated teachers collages or universities, or what ever they want to call them, which teach teaching rather than a degree in general education at a standard Uni where they are then sent to schools as trainee teachers and taught to do things the old teachers way.

These collages need to be based on overseas models with specialist subjects taught so as well as basic primary teachers they can turn out math, English, science and other specialist teachers. There needs to be facility for those who are already teaching to do (be sent on) refresher courses to update their teaching skills.

The whole curricula needs revamping and in particular the culture of "Don't ask the teacher questions they will lose face if they don't know the answer".

Every school should have parent input, for instance; 'Parent teacher committees' that meet at least monthly.

There must also be school inspectors who would meet and work with the parents on these committees with parents having direct access to the inspectors.

Bad teachers would soon be weeded out and either dismissed of sent back to a training collage, school directors would have to be accountable.

All schools must audit accounts which must be approved by the parent committees and sent to a school audit office.

Some may say parents don't care but I will tell you this, there are enough parents of kids at any school who do care and want to see their kids get a better education and a better deal.

"which found that kids IQ" - As IQ is a totally fallacious concept the whole premise of your argument falls flat on its face.

Edited June 8, 2015 by cumgranosalum

[Your Thainess]

I can tell you that an enormous amount of school money is wasted on junkets for administrators, 'training' and 'educational' trips around the country and abroad for teachers which amount to nothing but paid-for holidays, parties and social events, ridiculous uniforms and more nonsense.

One school I know spend B4.5 mil on a trip to a resort in another province where 130 teachers/staff did SFA for three days but drink and eat on the school's dime. Another sent 40 teachers to Japan for some unclear reason. Another bought B3,500 custom-tailored gaudy uniforms for teachers to be worn once a month...and the school had over 200 staff. Yet another built a huge multimedia lecture hall, had a royal inaugurate it, and then only uses it for huge parties, with no student ever having stepped into it for the purpose of study.

The administrators are corrupt and rubbish at the tasks that don't involve personal gain.

The teachers are poorly trained in pedagogy and never want to learn anything new.

The students are led to believe that they are fulfilling patriotic duty 'learning' they way they do.

The parents don't give a shit because they grew up with the same thing and at least the kids are out of the house.

Everybody smile, wai, repeat.

Utterly ridiculous.

[zyphodb]

No it isn't funding priorities it is quality of education.

I read a report this morning on a study, which I cant find now, which found that kids IQ actually dropped when they started school.

That's right school made them less intelligent.

What is needed is a huge lift in the quality of education in this country starting with the teachers and the conditions they work under, there are some good dedicated teachers and some not so good but the curriculums they are expect to teach and the rote or copying from books prevents them doing their best for the kids.

The first thing that is needed is dedicated teachers collages or universities, or what ever they want to call them, which teach teaching rather than a degree in general education at a standard Uni where they are then sent to schools as trainee teachers and taught to do things the old teachers way.

These collages need to be based on overseas models with specialist subjects taught so as well as basic primary teachers they can turn out math, English, science and other specialist teachers. There needs to be facility for those who are already teaching to do (be sent on) refresher courses to update their teaching skills.

The whole curricula needs revamping and in particular the culture of "Don't ask the teacher questions they will lose face if they don't know the answer".

Every school should have parent input, for instance; 'Parent teacher committees' that meet at least monthly.

There must also be school inspectors who would meet and work with the parents on these committees with parents having direct access to the inspectors.

Bad teachers would soon be weeded out and either dismissed of sent back to a training collage, school directors would have to be accountable.

All schools must audit accounts which must be approved by the parent committees and sent to a school audit office.

Some may say parents don't care but I will tell you this, there are enough parents of kids at any school who do care and want to see their kids get a better education and a better deal.

You are quite right but the "establishment" here are going to fight tooth & nail to keep it where it is now, a nice little earner for the "right" people whilst keeping the poor, stupid & easily manipulated, which is exactly what certain people want... Don't hold your breath...

[zyphodb]

I can tell you that an enormous amount of school money is wasted on junkets for administrators, 'training' and 'educational' trips around the country and abroad for teachers which amount to nothing but paid-for holidays, parties and social events, ridiculous uniforms and more nonsense.

One school I know spend B4.5 mil on a trip to a resort in another province where 130 teachers/staff did SFA for three days but drink and eat on the school's dime. Another sent 40 teachers to Japan for some unclear reason. Another bought B3,500 custom-tailored gaudy uniforms for teachers to be worn once a month...and the school had over 200 staff. Yet another built a huge multimedia lecture hall, had a royal inaugurate it, and then only uses it for huge parties, with no student ever having stepped into it for the purpose of study.

The administrators are corrupt and rubbish at the tasks that don't involve personal gain.

The teachers are poorly trained in pedagogy and never want to learn anything new.

The students are led to believe that they are fulfilling patriotic duty 'learning' they way they do.

The parents don't give a shit because they grew up with the same thing and at least the kids are out of the house.

Everybody smile, wai, repeat.

Utterly ridiculous.

Only just noticed this, sums it up nicely....

[doremifasol]

"Thailand could slash the number of classrooms with less than one teacher per class"

Uh?

Edited June 8, 2015 by doremifasol

[Robby nz]

No it isn't funding priorities it is quality of education.

I read a report this morning on a study, which I cant find now, which found that kids IQ actually dropped when they started school.

That's right school made them less intelligent.

What is needed is a huge lift in the quality of education in this country starting with the teachers and the conditions they work under, there are some good dedicated teachers and some not so good but the curriculums they are expect to teach and the rote or copying from books prevents them doing their best for the kids.

The first thing that is needed is dedicated teachers collages or universities, or what ever they want to call them, which teach teaching rather than a degree in general education at a standard Uni where they are then sent to schools as trainee teachers and taught to do things the old teachers way.

These collages need to be based on overseas models with specialist subjects taught so as well as basic primary teachers they can turn out math, English, science and other specialist teachers. There needs to be facility for those who are already teaching to do (be sent on) refresher courses to update their teaching skills.

The whole curricula needs revamping and in particular the culture of "Don't ask the teacher questions they will lose face if they don't know the answer".

Every school should have parent input, for instance; 'Parent teacher committees' that meet at least monthly.

There must also be school inspectors who would meet and work with the parents on these committees with parents having direct access to the inspectors.

Bad teachers would soon be weeded out and either dismissed of sent back to a training collage, school directors would have to be accountable.

All schools must audit accounts which must be approved by the parent committees and sent to a school audit office.

Some may say parents don't care but I will tell you this, there are enough parents of kids at any school who do care and want to see their kids get a better education and a better deal.

"which found that kids IQ" - As IQ is a totally fallacious concept the whole premise of your argument falls flat on its face.

I don't have an argument, I attempt to put forward reasoned and helpful suggestions based on what I have seen work in other places.

Try it sometime.

[cumgranosalum]

No it isn't funding priorities it is quality of education.

I read a report this morning on a study, which I cant find now, which found that kids IQ actually dropped when they started school.

That's right school made them less intelligent.

What is needed is a huge lift in the quality of education in this country starting with the teachers and the conditions they work under, there are some good dedicated teachers and some not so good but the curriculums they are expect to teach and the rote or copying from books prevents them doing their best for the kids.

The first thing that is needed is dedicated teachers collages or universities, or what ever they want to call them, which teach teaching rather than a degree in general education at a standard Uni where they are then sent to schools as trainee teachers and taught to do things the old teachers way.

These collages need to be based on overseas models with specialist subjects taught so as well as basic primary teachers they can turn out math, English, science and other specialist teachers. There needs to be facility for those who are already teaching to do (be sent on) refresher courses to update their teaching skills.

The whole curricula needs revamping and in particular the culture of "Don't ask the teacher questions they will lose face if they don't know the answer".

Every school should have parent input, for instance; 'Parent teacher committees' that meet at least monthly.

There must also be school inspectors who would meet and work with the parents on these committees with parents having direct access to the inspectors.

Bad teachers would soon be weeded out and either dismissed of sent back to a training collage, school directors would have to be accountable.

All schools must audit accounts which must be approved by the parent committees and sent to a school audit office.

Some may say parents don't care but I will tell you this, there are enough parents of kids at any school who do care and want to see their kids get a better education and a better deal.

"which found that kids IQ" - As IQ is a totally fallacious concept the whole premise of your argument falls flat on its face.

I don't have an argument, I attempt to put forward reasoned and helpful suggestions based on what I have seen work in other places.

Try it sometime.

QED - "I don't have an argument" - no you haven't and as your "reasoning" is flawed that fails too.....how can using false criteria be helpful?

BTW - If your knowledge of education is anything to go by, then the last thing Thai education needs is the involvement of the parents.

"The whole curricula needs" - is this a typo or do you not know this is incorrect too?

Edited June 8, 2015 by cumgranosalum

[Muhendis]

There are many really bright young academics in Thailand who are very well educated to world class standards, but they don't come from the sticks. In Isaan, if your child shows aptitude he or she can advance to a higher level and go on to university to become "well educated to world class standards". There is a problem with this and that is the level of available funding for the parents to spend on their child's education. The teacher will demand that they pay for additional courses which cost around 5,000 Baht/ term. This money should come from central government because generally the parents of children in Isaan cannot hope to find such funding. I am suspicious that this extra money goes directly into the teacher's pocket. It is quite likely that the additional courses (beyond the age of 16) are already paid for by central govt.

[pauleddy]

I can tell you that an enormous amount of school money is wasted on junkets for administrators, 'training' and 'educational' trips around the country and abroad for teachers which amount to nothing but paid-for holidays, parties and social events, ridiculous uniforms and more nonsense.

One school I know spend B4.5 mil on a trip to a resort in another province where 130 teachers/staff did SFA for three days but drink and eat on the school's dime. Another sent 40 teachers to Japan for some unclear reason. Another bought B3,500 custom-tailored gaudy uniforms for teachers to be worn once a month...and the school had over 200 staff. Yet another built a huge multimedia lecture hall, had a royal inaugurate it, and then only uses it for huge parties, with no student ever having stepped into it for the purpose of study.

The administrators are corrupt and rubbish at the tasks that don't involve personal gain.

The teachers are poorly trained in pedagogy and never want to learn anything new.

The students are led to believe that they are fulfilling patriotic duty 'learning' they way they do.

The parents don't give a shit because they grew up with the same thing and at least the kids are out of the house.

Everybody smile, wai, repeat.

Utterly ridiculous.

Only just noticed this, sums it up nicely....

[cumgranosalum]

There are many really bright young academics in Thailand who are very well educated to world class standards, but they don't come from the sticks. In Isaan, if your child shows aptitude he or she can advance to a higher level and go on to university to become "well educated to world class standards". There is a problem with this and that is the level of available funding for the parents to spend on their child's education. The teacher will demand that they pay for additional courses which cost around 5,000 Baht/ term. This money should come from central government because generally the parents of children in Isaan cannot hope to find such funding. I am suspicious that this extra money goes directly into the teacher's pocket. It is quite likely that the additional courses (beyond the age of 16) are already paid for by central govt.

Sweeping generalised and inaccurate remarks about demographics don't help very much either.

Yes if you come from a poor background in Thailand, you are less likely to succeed in education.......exactly what the figures are I don't know off hand but there ARE people from very poor backgrounds at Uni for instance........

the problem with the poor missing out is not particularly just a Thai thing = it's a universal problem....what IS a Thai thing is the inherent corruption nepotism and graft in in the system. (next time you see a Thai doctor, give a thought to how easy it was for him to pass all those exams - but he still can't tell the difference between flu and dengue)

For instance, a huge proportion of the police and other government employees are from very poor backgrounds, but their children actually do get the opportunities to get a "better" education because of the position of their parents.......and let's face it some may succumb to temptation and abuse their position to advance their children's education - whether or not they are worthy of it is another matter.

One result of a corrupt education system is that ineptitude breeds ineptitude.....people who are not up to a job get it all the same.......the result is a system that no-one can respect ANY of the qualifications handed out or the abilities of those who are its product...even good teachers and students are engulfed by the system; it's not just those who have "shonky" qualifications it degrades the achievements of those who genuinely worked hard and were obtained genuinely good results....

Edited June 8, 2015 by cumgranosalum

[kaorop]

and see the farang stupidity in this?

140 mill from foreign govs

so, many of 'our' countries are sending tax payers money to line the pockets of greedy corrupt officials

but would not lift a finger or spend a dime on you if you needed help,

nice isnt it?

[cumgranosalum]

and see the farang stupidity in this?

140 mill from foreign govs

so, many of 'our' countries are sending tax payers money to line the pockets of greedy corrupt officials

but would not lift a finger or spend a dime on you if you needed help,

nice isnt it?

Not true - Thailand no longer receives aid from foreign governments - least of all your taxes!

[quandow]

They spent a chunk of their budget giving out tablets <snip>

I worked at a school which received some of these Android based tablets. I COULD NOT BELIEVE MY EYES!!!

There was a video lesson on how to use an ATM!!! You CAN'T make this stuff up!

Even better, it was an older Western-looking man sporting a moustache helping a teen girl. When you got the lesson right, it showed a 500 baht note being spit out the slot. And this was for grade 2 students, 7 and 8 years old.

Train 'em young . . .

[selftaopath]

I can tell you that an enormous amount of school money is wasted on junkets for administrators, 'training' and 'educational' trips around the country and abroad for teachers which amount to nothing but paid-for holidays, parties and social events, ridiculous uniforms and more nonsense.

One school I know spend B4.5 mil on a trip to a resort in another province where 130 teachers/staff did SFA for three days but drink and eat on the school's dime. Another sent 40 teachers to Japan for some unclear reason. Another bought B3,500 custom-tailored gaudy uniforms for teachers to be worn once a month...and the school had over 200 staff. Yet another built a huge multimedia lecture hall, had a royal inaugurate it, and then only uses it for huge parties, with no student ever having stepped into it for the purpose of study.

The administrators are corrupt and rubbish at the tasks that don't involve personal gain.

The teachers are poorly trained in pedagogy and never want to learn anything new.

The students are led to believe that they are fulfilling patriotic duty 'learning' they way they do.

The parents don't give a shit because they grew up with the same thing and at least the kids are out of the house.

Everybody smile, wai, repeat.

Utterly ridiculous.

Thank you for your post. These actions IMO are purely criminal in nature. But in a land WITHOUT rule of law/oversight/accountability etc. etc. there will be little or no change. I find it interesting how many teachers I see in various shopping venues throughout the day and EVERY one drives a new vehicle. I don't get it. Oh and at first glance I thought these "educators" NOT were war veterans with all the medals etc hanging from their chests. Why - pray tell - should they get paid if they do not produce the "product" i.e. educated children?????

[selftaopath]

and see the farang stupidity in this?

140 mill from foreign govs

so, many of 'our' countries are sending tax payers money to line the pockets of greedy corrupt officials

but would not lift a finger or spend a dime on you if you needed help,

nice isnt it?

Not true - Thailand no longer receives aid from foreign governments - least of all your taxes!

Really? Didn't US declare aid would less when the recent coup started? I think The UK gives aid to Land of Scams also.

Edited June 9, 2015 by selftaopath

[qwertyuiop]

The first thing that is needed is dedicated teachers collages or universities, or what ever they want to call them

They exist already - The Rajabhat institutions which you will find all over the country.

Although now given university status they are basically teacher training institutions where the vast majority of students enroll on subject specific courses - English, Mathematics, Chemistry etc. Graduates obtain B.Ed degrees in English etc. Then in order to obtain a teacher's position in a school they must pass a couple of exams - one general teaching issues and one subject specific - in the province in which they would like to teach

IMO the structure by and large exists. The curricula exist. The quality does not.

[cumgranosalum]

They spent a chunk of their budget giving out tablets <snip>

I worked at a school which received some of these Android based tablets. I COULD NOT BELIEVE MY EYES!!!

There was a video lesson on how to use an ATM!!! You CAN'T make this stuff up!

Even better, it was an older Western-looking man sporting a moustache helping a teen girl. When you got the lesson right, it showed a 500 baht note being spit out the slot. And this was for grade 2 students, 7 and 8 years old.

Train 'em young . . .

...and what is your criticism, educationally speaking, of this video? what were its aims? I presume you consider that it had no educational merit....can you tell us on what you are basing this ?

[cumgranosalum]

and see the farang stupidity in this?

140 mill from foreign govs

so, many of 'our' countries are sending tax payers money to line the pockets of greedy corrupt officials

but would not lift a finger or spend a dime on you if you needed help,

nice isnt it?

Not true - Thailand no longer receives aid from foreign governments - least of all your taxes!

Really? Didn't US declare aid would less when the recent coup started? I think The UK gives aid to Land of Scams also.

The "aid" given by US is largely military as for the UK - I think you'll find it is similar. the main "aid" giver on industrial partnerships....to Thailand is Japan in the form of civil engineering projects - these are usually in the form of cheap loans and engineering projects - they of course directly benefit Japanese investments in industry here.

Thailand paid off it's international debts under Thaksin.

The concept that taxpaying money is going into education in Thailand is not true - there may be NGOs and charities both national and international involved but the amount against billions is minute......and international education charities run in countries all over the world both developing and developed.

Edited June 9, 2015 by cumgranosalum