Greece, creditors dig in their heels on eve of meeting

[Anthony5]

Looks like Mr Tsipras gonna sign an agreement on Monday which he has no intention to keep, so all European citizen will be in bigger depth because of this gangster.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-19/greece-stumbling-to-euro-exit-as-talks-end-in-frustration-ib3d3x9x?cmpid=yhoo

“Tsipras issued a dovish statement this morning, indicating that he will blink and come to an agreement,” said Miranda Xafa, a former Greek representative to the IMF who now runs a consultancy in Athens. “The Greek premier overplayed his hand, believing that Greece is systemic and therefore creditors would accept his demands for fear of contagion.”

I don't see the part that you quoted in the article.. did they change it.. seems here the Greeks still don't want to cave in.

Yes they seem to have removed that statement for some reason. If you google the statement some other Bloomberg articles show up that should contain it, but also there removed.

Anyway, here it is from a source that tok over the article from Bloomberg.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-wp-blm-news-bc-greece19-20150619-story.html

[Anthony5]

"Gangster"?

Please don't insult the elected Greek PM.

He turns out to be the only honest man among these bunch of opportunistic unpoliticians (Angela Merkel & Co) He was elected to save Greek people from starvation, and he does his job.

Maybe people in European countries would have been off better with politicians like Mr Tsipras. If you think you get a reward from Big Money and their technocrats for your obedience, then keep on dreaming. Don't get shocked when you wake up and find out that all your money was already spent a long time ago.

Tsipras was elected because he promised that he would not give in to the austerity measures the EU requested, to get out of a situation that only exists because the Greeks together with Goldman Sachs pulled a scam to get in the EU.

And that makes him part of the crime.

[robblok]

They should pull the plug... even if the Greeks accept who is to say they will keep their word. They are real untrustworthy. There was an agreement before and they changed government and it had to renegotiated. Then we got all these problems who says they won't pull that stunt again. Just take the hit, let them sink and make sure they leave the EU.

Remember the Greeks also get loads of refugees, we can then just block the borders with Greece and let them have all the problems they want. Loose out on some money (too bad) but it will be far worse for them. They had their chance.

As I said even if we solve it, they probably never going to keep their promise and we will have this dog and pony show again and again.

[Anthony5]

They should pull the plug... even if the Greeks accept who is to say they will keep their word. They are real untrustworthy. There was an agreement before and they changed government and it had to renegotiated. Then we got all these problems who says they won't pull that stunt again. Just take the hit, let them sink and make sure they leave the EU.

Remember the Greeks also get loads of refugees, we can then just block the borders with Greece and let them have all the problems they want. Loose out on some money (too bad) but it will be far worse for them. They had their chance.

As I said even if we solve it, they probably never going to keep their promise and we will have this dog and pony show again and again.

It is a given that they will never pay back because

An advisory committee set up in parliament by members of the government said Wednesday it had recommended the non-payment of any remaining bailout debt, describing it as "illegal, illegitimate, and odious."

Edited June 20, 2015 by Anthony5

[micmichd]

@Anthony5:

Agree with the facts, disagree with your conclusion.

The foundation of the EU and the Euro zone was a big scam right from the beginning.

Remember the Maastricht criteria, meant to be prerequisite to join the Euro zone? All countries except Luxemburg faked their statistics - or came up with "soft interpretations" of the Maastricht criteria just to get the Euro as currency. Again: all countries did that, including Germany. Greek government and Big Money (Goldman Sachs et al) did the same.

But only Greece is forced into an austerity program that runs quite contrary to EU's proclamation of a Social Union.

In a situation like this, Greek government had to do something about it. Either sacrifice the population's welfare to Big Money's austerity program, or care about welfare first and let Big Money wait. Any Greek government would have had to make this decision.

The current Greek government is only trying to heal the injuries done to the people by Euro scam.

And that's not a crime.

[micmichd]

They should pull the plug... even if the Greeks accept who is to say they will keep their word. They are real untrustworthy. There was an agreement before and they changed government and it had to renegotiated. Then we got all these problems who says they won't pull that stunt again. Just take the hit, let them sink and make sure they leave the EU.

Remember the Greeks also get loads of refugees, we can then just block the borders with Greece and let them have all the problems they want. Loose out on some money (too bad) but it will be far worse for them. They had their chance.

As I said even if we solve it, they probably never going to keep their promise and we will have this dog and pony show again and again.

It is a given that they will never pay back because

An advisory committee set up in parliament by members of the government said Wednesday it had recommended the non-payment of any remaining bailout debt, describing it as "illegal, illegitimate, and odious."

Which government?

[Anthony5]

They should pull the plug... even if the Greeks accept who is to say they will keep their word. They are real untrustworthy. There was an agreement before and they changed government and it had to renegotiated. Then we got all these problems who says they won't pull that stunt again. Just take the hit, let them sink and make sure they leave the EU.

Remember the Greeks also get loads of refugees, we can then just block the borders with Greece and let them have all the problems they want. Loose out on some money (too bad) but it will be far worse for them. They had their chance.

As I said even if we solve it, they probably never going to keep their promise and we will have this dog and pony show again and again.

It is a given that they will never pay back because

An advisory committee set up in parliament by members of the government said Wednesday it had recommended the non-payment of any remaining bailout debt, describing it as "illegal, illegitimate, and odious."

Which government?

Let me make a wild guess. The Zimbabwean government ?

[micmichd]

"Gangster"?

Please don't insult the elected Greek PM.

He turns out to be the only honest man among these bunch of opportunistic unpoliticians (Angela Merkel & Co) He was elected to save Greek people from starvation, and he does his job.

Maybe people in European countries would have been off better with politicians like Mr Tsipras. If you think you get a reward from Big Money and their technocrats for your obedience, then keep on dreaming. Don't get shocked when you wake up and find out that all your money was already spent a long time ago.

It has, on Greece.

My money and property has gone to European banks and their pimps, institutions, and a corrupt government that supports a scam economy.

All in Germany, EU.

Maybe a tiny bit from my taxes went to Greece. Greece can keep this part, but please make sure the workers and pensioners get it.

[robblok]

My money and property has gone to European banks and their pimps, institutions, and a corrupt government that supports a scam economy.

All in Germany, EU.

Maybe a tiny bit from my taxes went to Greece. Greece can keep this part, but please make sure the workers and pensioners get it.

Seems you have some other problems if you lost your money and property. Probably someone who does not understand taxes and stuff like that.

[micmichd]

Sure, I didn't have time because they've stolen it, too.

Lessons learnt:

Never trust a German, whether person or institution, unless you're armed and rready to use your arms. And never pay your debts before they paid theirs. Don't do anyone a favour, they take it as a sign of weakness.

Edited June 20, 2015 by micmichd

[Anthony5]

My money and property has gone to European banks and their pimps, institutions, and a corrupt government that supports a scam economy.

All in Germany, EU.

Maybe a tiny bit from my taxes went to Greece. Greece can keep this part, but please make sure the workers and pensioners get it.

Seems you have some other problems if you lost your money and property. Probably someone who does not understand taxes and stuff like that.

Look at his post history. He claims to have been scammed by the governments of about every country he has ever entered. This guy clearly has a problem, and I wouldn't be surprised if mental was one of them.

Edited June 20, 2015 by Anthony5

[micmichd]

@Anthony5:

I had troubles only with the German government, which happens to be in the EU.

Maybe I would have troubles with other governments because I defend Greece (which is up to me).

I make a difference between capital and labour, if you allow me to. And I'm on the side of those who suffer from Imperialism or globalization or whatever you want to call it.

Call me a commie rat if you want to, I'm used to get insulted by people like you.

What do you understand about mental problems?

Are you running out of arguments?

Edited June 20, 2015 by micmichd

[cookee68]

With 300-500 million dollars being withdrawn daily from banks by worried depositors,

how long before Greece will be bankrupt? and yet, the still want to keep their days

of wine, songs, siesta and working very little going on for ever,

with huge unemployment, despair and hopelessness every where how long will they last?

somehow, Greece assume that the world owe it some kind or debt of gratitude

for just being Greece, and that the EU will not let it fold, time will tell......

But they will still be in the EU even if they are kicked out, ( as immigrants coming over the borders )

[micmichd]

German SPIEGEL says ECB promised Greece credit (2nd Aid Package), last payments to Greece (7.2 bn EUR) to be made on June 30, 2015. Greece probably relied on that, and now ECB refuses to pay these 7.2 bn EUR and comes up with unrealistic conditions (cut down pensions) instead.

Greek pensions are low, and usually a whole family has to live on a pension because there's nothing like additional (tax-financed) social benefit like in most Western European countries. That's why pensions can't be reduced in Greece.

On the other side, Greece is supposed to pay back some older credits to IMF and ECB, and now ask for a prolongation without additional interest. That's all, it's now only 460 mio. EUR in question.

The 2nd Aid Package to Greece is open to private investors, so maybe some of the heiresses of those ultra-rich Greeks that never paid any taxes from their offshore companies might want to help?

A certain family name comes to my mind here, maybe I better leave it there and have breakfast instead.

Edited June 21, 2015 by micmichd

[Anthony5]

German SPIEGEL says ECB promised Greece credit (2nd Aid Package), last payments to Greece (7.2 bn EUR) to be made on June 30, 2015. Greece probably relied on that, and now ECB refuses to pay these 7.2 bn EUR and comes up with unrealistic conditions (cut down pensions) instead.

Greek pensions are low, and usually a whole family has to live on a pension because there's nothing like additional (tax-financed) social benefit like in most Western European countries. That's why pensions can't be reduced in Greece.

On the other side, Greece is supposed to pay back some older credits to IMF and ECB, and now ask for a prolongation without additional interest. That's all, it's now only 460 mio. EUR in question.

The 2nd Aid Package to Greece is open to private investors, so maybe some of the heiresses of those ultra-rich Greeks that never paid any taxes from their offshore companies might want to help?

A certain family name comes to my mind here, maybe I better leave it there and have breakfast instead.

You should read up a bit more on what has really been going on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government-debt_crisis

The Syriza Party won the election and formed a new government, which declared the old bailout agreement was now cancelled, while requesting acceptance of an extended deadline from 28 February to 31 May 2015 for the process to negotiate a new replacing creditor agreement with the Eurogroup.^[79] The Eurogroup responded by granting a further four-month technical extension of its current bailout programme to Greece; accepting the payment terms attached to its last tranche to be renegotiated with the new Greek government before the end of April,^[20] so that the review and last financial transfer could be completed before the end of June 2015.^[21]

http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/assistance_eu_ms/greek_loan_facility/index_en.htm

After intense negotiations between the newly-elected government and Euro-area Member states, assisted by the European Commission, the ECB, and the IMF, the Greek government requested on 18 February an extension of the Master Financial Assistance Facility Agreement for Greece. Following the agreement of the Eurogroup to extend the programme by four months, underpinned by the commitment of the Greek government to a comprehensive list of reforms and the completion of the national parliamentary procedures, the extension was finalised by a decision of the EFSF Board of Directors on 27 February. The extension allows the Greek authorities to design and implement, in close coordination with the EC/ECB/IMF, reforms that should lead to a successful conclusion of the review and the design of the follow-up arrangements.

[robblok]

German SPIEGEL says ECB promised Greece credit (2nd Aid Package), last payments to Greece (7.2 bn EUR) to be made on June 30, 2015. Greece probably relied on that, and now ECB refuses to pay these 7.2 bn EUR and comes up with unrealistic conditions (cut down pensions) instead.

Greek pensions are low, and usually a whole family has to live on a pension because there's nothing like additional (tax-financed) social benefit like in most Western European countries. That's why pensions can't be reduced in Greece.

On the other side, Greece is supposed to pay back some older credits to IMF and ECB, and now ask for a prolongation without additional interest. That's all, it's now only 460 mio. EUR in question.

The 2nd Aid Package to Greece is open to private investors, so maybe some of the heiresses of those ultra-rich Greeks that never paid any taxes from their offshore companies might want to help?

A certain family name comes to my mind here, maybe I better leave it there and have breakfast instead.

You should read up a bit more on what has really been going on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government-debt_crisis

The Syriza Party won the election and formed a new government, which declared the old bailout agreement was now cancelled, while requesting acceptance of an extended deadline from 28 February to 31 May 2015 for the process to negotiate a new replacing creditor agreement with the Eurogroup.^[79] The Eurogroup responded by granting a further four-month technical extension of its current bailout programme to Greece; accepting the payment terms attached to its last tranche to be renegotiated with the new Greek government before the end of April,^[20] so that the review and last financial transfer could be completed before the end of June 2015.^[21]

http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/assistance_eu_ms/greek_loan_facility/index_en.htm

After intense negotiations between the newly-elected government and Euro-area Member states, assisted by the European Commission, the ECB, and the IMF, the Greek government requested on 18 February an extension of the Master Financial Assistance Facility Agreement for Greece. Following the agreement of the Eurogroup to extend the programme by four months, underpinned by the commitment of the Greek government to a comprehensive list of reforms and the completion of the national parliamentary procedures, the extension was finalised by a decision of the EFSF Board of Directors on 27 February. The extension allows the Greek authorities to design and implement, in close coordination with the EC/ECB/IMF, reforms that should lead to a successful conclusion of the review and the design of the follow-up arrangements.

Yes there was a deal all was good but the Greeks changed their mind they are to blame. But Antony as you said Micmichd is having other problems. I have seen guys like him before. They are not worth the trouble they think they were treated unfairly by banks while it was their own stupid mistake.

[micmichd]

The keyword is "reforms", and EU insists on Greece to cut down pensions.

Here's the current social and legal situation:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/17/greece-pension-crisis-people

Note that the highest Greek court found that cutting down pensions would be illegal.

So, former Greek governments made agreements contra legem. The current government would have to break Greek law if they would cut down pensions now, and any Greek government is bound to obey Greek law and Greek jurisdiction.

The case Greece vs EU might be taken to the European Court in Straßburg. There would hardly be a final decision before the end of this month. So, EU should do best not to ruin Greece. If they lose a case against Greece, then compensations could amount to unbelievable sums, not talking about the foreseeable domino effect caused by this precedence case.

Maybe European Court could make an intermediary decision to avoid irreversible damages to either party, I don't know.

Edited June 21, 2015 by micmichd

[robblok]

The keyword is "reforms", and EU insists on Greece to cut down pensions.

Here's the current social and legal situation:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/17/greece-pension-crisis-people

Note that the highest Greek court found that cutting down pensions would be illegal.

So, former Greek governments made agreements contra legem. The current government would have to break Greek law if they would cut down pensions now, and any Greek government is bound to obey Greek law and Greek jurisdiction.

The case Greece vs EU might be taken to the European Court in Straßburg. There would hardly be a final decision before the end of this month. So, EU should do best not to ruin Greece. If they lose a case against Greece, then compensations could amount to unbelievable sums, not talking about the foreseeable domino effect caused by this precedence case.

Maybe European Court could make an intermediary decision to avoid irreversible damages to either party, I don't know.

The Greek courts can say what they want, the government agreed to it and on that basis the EU loaned them money. So they are breaking the deal (Greek government and made an illegal deal) So there is only one country to blame and that is Greece.

If 2 governments make a deal and one did it on basis of things that are illigal in their country then that country is to blame (Greece) because they made a deal they knew they could not upheld. They should pay damages to the EU for the mess they made.

[micmichd]

If you came from a country where people ever made a revolution against the government you would have learned fairly well to distinguish between Greek people and (former) Greek government.

Guess you even come from such a country, you only forgot.

Anyway, Greece (as a geopolitical unit) is maybe not so poor as you believe.

They have sun there (good for solar energy), they have oil and gas, and they can make a deal with the Russians for a gas pipeline. There's also a lot of qualified people in Greece, don't forget. Greek eeconomy is already improving.

So, there's a good chance that they can pay the bill one day. EU should just leave it up to them which way they run their economy.

[Anthony5]

If you came from a country where people ever made a revolution against the government you would have learned fairly well to distinguish between Greek people and (former) Greek government.

Guess you even come from such a country, you only forgot.

Anyway, Greece (as a geopolitical unit) is maybe not so poor as you believe.

They have sun there (good for solar energy), they have oil and gas, and they can make a deal with the Russians for a gas pipeline. There's also a lot of qualified people in Greece, don't forget. Greek eeconomy is already improving.

So, there's a good chance that they can pay the bill one day. EU should just leave it up to them which way they run their economy.

If they are so rich, why they had to fake their balance sheet, and why they need financial help?

[SheungWan]

If you came from a country where people ever made a revolution against the government you would have learned fairly well to distinguish between Greek people and (former) Greek government.

Guess you even come from such a country, you only forgot.

Anyway, Greece (as a geopolitical unit) is maybe not so poor as you believe.

They have sun there (good for solar energy), they have oil and gas, and they can make a deal with the Russians for a gas pipeline. There's also a lot of qualified people in Greece, don't forget. Greek eeconomy is already improving.

So, there's a good chance that they can pay the bill one day. EU should just leave it up to them which way they run their economy.

There's an even better chance that they will never pay the bill any day. Good luck with the Russian threat. Let's face it Greece is all played out with the threats to do this and do that but bottom line no structural changes. So off you go and bon voyage with the New Drachmas.

Edited June 21, 2015 by SheungWan

[Pakboong]

I seriously doubt that Greece is really the issue. The Euro is connected in various ways to as many as hundreds of trillions in derivitives. I doubt that anyone knows the exact amount. I also expect keeping Greece operating by giving them billions in order to avoid losses in the trillions has been and will continue to be on the table. Another unknown is letting Russia take on Greece. Be assured that Russia has little or no interest in saving the Euro. But, there are many interconnections that the big money guys are trying to evaluate as we type.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Pakboong

[micmichd]

It's probably all under the control of Germany, and I doubt that any of these German Eurocrats work on weekends. If they have a full time job, German bureaucrats work from Mondays through Fridays, no more than 8 hours a day. Most of the work is done by foreigners (eg Greeks) or computers anyway - if they have people that know how to handle computers.

If they find out on Monday morning that the Euro Ponzi scheme crashed, they already have a scapegoat which they can blame. That's probably what this is all about.

Edited June 21, 2015 by micmichd

[micmichd]

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0P10JN20150622?irpc=932 Edited June 22, 2015 by micmichd

[micmichd]

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0P10JN20150622?irpc=932

rejected by Mr Schäuble, Germany.

[Basil B]

Going to tax the rich and businesses...

How long before the back track on that?

[micmichd]

Now IMF querulating. Mme Lagarde says the Greeks didn't pay their taxes in the past, so they won't in the future.

Mme Lagarde forgot something. Greece is still a sovereign country, neither EU nor IMF are lawmakers in Greece. The new Greek socialist government should well be able to change some laws and introduce harsh penalties for tax evasion. But a political change seems to be out of imagination to the "creditors"