Wouldnt This One Small Tweak Make 90% People Happy

[LivinLOS]

I understand Thailand is trying to 'clean up' its act and understand how longstay, living on 20k per month, el cheapo, visa runners seem the target of this.. Yet while attempting to target these people they are hitting a much larger section of the resident farang population who by and large are a net benefit to Thailand.

It seems to me.. The problem exists due to there simply not being a legal option for the under 50's who retire early and do not wish to marry. There are other segments effected (those working is poor sectors that Thais are not able to do yet still benefit Thailand, diving, english language, etc) but I will get to them in a minute.

Why not scrap the retirement 50 age and insist on seeing the 800k transfered from outside Thailand annually. This gives the people who claim to be a financial benefit to Thailand the chance to do so. This gives people a legal method to stay long term if they are a positive financial benefit, and does weed out those that work in Thailand illegally and just eek out a living getting by. It sorts out the so called poverty packers and legitimises those that (I think) thailand should want ??

Legit short term tourists are served by VOA's and Tourist visa's.

People can 'sniff the wind' about setting up home for the length of a tourist visa (multi) obtained in thier home country.

High net worth individuals are given a legal channel to exist long term and spend money into the Thai economy.

Illegal workers are either forced out or the industries are forced to raise standards and legallity to cover them, prices will inevitably rise in some industries to cover those costs but thats the breaks of legal workforces.

It could even be possible for some or all schools to have some break in minimum wage for English teaching (and even Diving if the net gain of tourism is deemed higher than the 'cost' of farang existing cheaply and working) as it is helpful to the long term development of Thailand. The mimum wage 'bar' can be set as high or low for this industry or for the 'approved and accredited' schools wherever the Thai gov feels that they can afford the correct level of trained staff v the cost to the industry and schools. All very easy to tweak and adapt through min wage for industry for registered businesses.

Sorry if this sounds like an oversimplification but doesnt his one 'tweak' pretty much mean they accomplish what they want and shut up 99% of the whining (legitimate complaining ??) thats going on here ??

Am I just not thinking 'Thai' about this.. Seems so simple to sort out.

[Colonel_Mustard]

I suspect/hope that this, or something similar, is what will ultimately happen.

[SamSipEt]

Sounds like a plan to me – when does it start?

[astral]

A good idea, but don't bank on it.

[lopburi3]

So the scammer sends his money overseas and then imports it. Same bad apples working here in violation of laws. Over age 50 at least there is a strong possibility of retirement - under that the factor of confidence drops sharply.

[drummer]

Except that the 'poverty packers' add to the Thai economy as well. Everyone one of them that I know gets infusions of cash from their folks or savings back home at regular intervals. Then there is the economic argument that they spend all their money in Thailand, and create jobs in other areas. Many taxi drivers, Beer Singha employees, travel agents, apartment managers, security guards, Som Tham ladies, and lawyers have jobs because of these guys. it is a net loss to the system.

Of course, Thailand would be better off if no one cheats the system at all, but kicking out offenders hurts the bottom line... throwing the baby out with the economic bathwater.

How about this:

Make it easy to stay legally, and hard to cheat the system.

Simplify, streamline, and reduce the requirements and process for work permits. Make opening a business easier, but actually watch the busniesses to make sure that appropriate levels of tax are being generated, that the jobs being done are the jobs being done, and that sort of thing. In addition, link up this list with Interpol, so that criminals and hoodwinks and known pedophiles and the like are kept out of the system - giving Thailand a much better International reputation.

This kind of system gives Thailand greater control and greater oversight as to what exactly is going on in their country, and allows for background checks and the like to be made much more easily (theoretically improving the ESL teacher quality) At the same time, it keeps Thailand friendly for legitimate people, and keeps money flowing in... at a greate rate because you now have more visa fees and more tax payers.

Hows that sound?

Edited September 16, 2006 by drummer

[Thaiquila]

Thailand isn't the only country with retirement visa programs. There are such all over the world in countries at a similar stage of development as Thailand. It is a hot ticket for many countries, and Thailand is competing with these countries for quality retirees. Some of these countries have come to the solution of the earlier retirement issue by having a TWO TIERED system of financial requirements. The younger retirees are asked to show MORE money.

retireaway.com

There is logic behind this. If you are 35 and claiming to be wealthy enough to retire, you certainly need more money to see you through an average life span than the 60 year old. Thailand could consider this, and attract a nice class of young playboys. Oops. Guess that's not what they want? Oh, jeez, who really knows what they want?

Edited September 16, 2006 by PeaceBlondie

[LivinLOS]

So the scammer sends his money overseas and then imports it. Same bad apples working here in violation of laws. Over age 50 at least there is a strong possibility of retirement - under that the factor of confidence drops sharply.

Easy to have an annual close exmination of financial records..

Although I agree that it does have its holes in this regard.. However surely shows in the main a large net influx of capital for Thailand.. And solves the majority of the issues.. While similarly stopping those with nearly no capital from being resident.

[Soju]

Legit short term tourists are served by VOA's and Tourist visa's.

I don't want to sound like a broken record, but to date there still hasn't been any offical unambiguous statement that frequent short-term visitors are covered. There's been lots of speculation that the 3 x 30 day stamp every 6 months rule will only apply to land crossings, or that it will be a total of 90 days rather than 3 stamps. But still no clear statement. In fact the latest news I saw seems to take a step backwards to being just 3 stamps regardless of the point of entry. I won't repeat again what I and others have said, but there are a significant number of us frequent travellers who cannot or only via extreme inconvenience can get a tourist visa to serve us.

The other short-term tourist affected are those that use Thailand as a hub, going in and out multiple times in a short period. Many of them will be affected even if airports are exempted from the rule.

Tourist visas cover some of these travellers, but by no means do the cover all.

[LivinLOS]

Except that the 'poverty packers' add to the Thai economy as well. Everyone one of them that I know gets infusions of cash from their folks or savings back home at regular intervals. Then there is the economic argument that they spend all their money in Thailand, and create jobs in other areas. Many taxi drivers, Beer Singha employees, travel agents, apartment managers, security guards, Som Tham ladies, and lawyers have jobs because of these guys. it is a net loss to the system.

While I tend to agree that these people are often a net gain for Thailand it would seem clear that Thailand is raiding the bar and no longer wants these pople..

Trying to find a situation where the new rules effect only those they claim to wish to push out was my intention.

Thailand claims to want to keep high net worth individuals who spend money here, they claim to want to push out the illegal workers and those struggling to get by. To me the above tweaks seem to solve the vast majority of thier wishes and doesnt through the baby out with the bathwater

[LivinLOS]

Thailand isn't the only country with retirement visa programs. There are such all over the world in countries at a similar stage of development as Thailand. It is a hot ticket for many countries, and Thailand is competing with these countries for quality retirees. Some of these countries have come to the solution of the earlier retirement issue by having a TWO TIERED system of financial requirements. The younger retirees are asked to show MORE money.

retireaway.com

There is logic behind this. If you are 35 and claiming to be wealthy enough to retire, you certainly need more money to see you through an average life span than the 60 year old. Thailand could consider this, and attract a nice class of young playboys. Oops. Guess that's not what they want? Oh, jeez, who really knows what they want?

Can certainly see some logic in this..

I would expect a fair bit of bellyaching from those that feel it unfair but as you say, to truly retire now and not expect to go back to work ever then you should be able to show considerable assets if young.

I would feel though that showing those assets purely in Thailand or invested into Thailand would be offputting.. Many young retirees are doing so by means of owning rental apartments, or other non cash assets. Also a lack of faith in bringing money into Thailands banking systems or simply the right to choose how large amounts of capital are tied up is I think the right of the individual..

But to simply show that your high net worth and not a drain to the economy is a fair and valid goal.. If your not going to work, if your going to spend a lot into the country.. Put up or shut up.. Seems fair.

[mouse]

If that is what they wanted then they would not scrap the investiment VISA for 3 million would they? They want the bad guys out. The guys that got their money through improper means and that come here to make more with their ill gotten gains through qurestionable businesses at the expense of Thailands reputation.

I spoke to a high ranking Police friend of mine and he is under the impression that a lot of Thailands undesirable activity is funded by farang or other visitors from Europe and other locations to include Russia, North America, Japan, China and other many places. It is this criminal element that they want to surgically remove from the Thai economy with the least amount of damage to the valid Retirement, Tourist and other longterm visitors to their country. He jokingly added that what in effect is being done is the "Nationalization of Crime"

After having explained the plight of many will be affected by a few, he agreed but, stated that policies will surely be adjusted to meet the needs of the valid visitors as time progresses. They do not want to rid themsleves of tourist, visitors and other valid guests bringing needed and welcomed income to the nation.

[fruittbatt]

LivinLOS,

while your suggestion would certainly enable more foreigners to stay in Thailand, you are buying into the Thai government's argument that more financial security=better quality foreigner. This is sometimes the case - eg in the case of those farangs whose sole aim in being here is to live dirt cheap and drink or f-ck themselves to death, or those who maintain themselves via working illegally without seeking work permits.

However, in the last few days I have met 3 single/divorced people who don't have the required 800,000 available at call for a retirement visa, and whose o/s funds fall shy of the monthly income requirement. These are decent men and women who live frugally and work as volunteers in orphanages, and give free English lessons. Respectful and giving people, who would like the chance to stay but cannot. I feel sorry that these people are discriminated against by a government that equates "quality" with the size of a foreigner's bank balance.

Edited September 16, 2006 by fruittbatt

[LivinLOS]

I totally agree that using finance to define if someone is 'good' or 'bad' is a very poor yardstick..

However thats what the Governement are claiming to want to do and if so it seems such a minor adjustement to thier current rules yet meets all of thier specified aims.

Yes there are high moraled, good hearted, generous yet not financially solvent farangs.. I agree.. Yet It would seem that Thailand is saying they really dont weant these people for fear of them working illegally to get by.

[Thaiquila]

LivinLOS,

while your suggestion would certainly enable more foreigners to stay in Thailand, you are buying into the Thai government's argument that more financial security=better quality foreigner. This is sometimes the case - eg in the case of those farangs whose sole aim in being here is to live dirt cheap and drink or f-ck themselves to death, or those who maintain themselves via working illegally without seeking work permits.

However, in the last few days I have met 3 single/divorced people who don't have the required 800,000 available at call for a retirement visa, and whose o/s funds fall shy of the monthly income requirement. These are decent men and women who live frugally and work as volunteers in orphanages, and give free English lessons. Respectful and giving people, who would like the chance to stay but cannot. I feel sorry that these people are discriminated against by a government that equates "quality" with the size of a foreigner's bank balance.

Well these lovely people could still qualify for the retirement visa. If their pension is 500K, they would only need to show a 300K bank account. If they can't raise that amount of savings, they are kind of living on the edge.

I totally agree that some of the most wonderful people on earth are poor people. However, realistically, Thailand and any country is acting understandably in its best interest to not invite retirees with no resources. Why should they? They have enough Thais without resources, why invite foreign ones?

I am not aware of any retirement visa program in the world where showing some minimum amount of resources is not required. Some require much less than Thailand, some much more. I personally think the 800K is actually somewhat higher than is really needed to retire in Thailand for many people, but these fine points are of course, up to them. And of course, retirees are not compelled to spend the 800K each year.

[fruittbatt]

I totally agree that using finance to define if someone is 'good' or 'bad' is a very poor yardstick..

However thats what the Governement are claiming to want to do and if so it seems such a minor adjustement to thier current rules yet meets all of thier specified aims.

Yes there are high moraled, good hearted, generous yet not financially solvent farangs.. I agree.. Yet It would seem that Thailand is saying they really dont weant these people for fear of them working illegally to get by.

Perhaps the government should require all schools or organizations which employ foreigners to declare their hours and rates of pay if they are in fact being paid...that might help sort out who is employed

or it might just create an even bigger bureaucratic nightmare and opportunities for corruption. Such a system would still not catch the Ebayers or illegal bar owners, either.

It's a sad fact that no matter what rules are put in place, some deserving people will fall through the cracks However, I agree that your suggestion has considerable merit. Malaysia and the Philippines both have early retirement schemes to cater for younger would-be residents.

[Big Dogster]

If that is what they wanted then they would not scrap the investiment VISA for 3 million would they? They want the bad guys out. The guys that got their money through improper means and that come here to make more with their ill gotten gains through qurestionable businesses at the expense of Thailands reputation.

I spoke to a high ranking Police friend of mine and he is under the impression that a lot of Thailands undesirable activity is funded by farang or other visitors from Europe and other locations to include Russia, North America, Japan, China and other many places. It is this criminal element that they want to surgically remove from the Thai economy with the least amount of damage to the valid Retirement, Tourist and other longterm visitors to their country. He jokingly added that what in effect is being done is the "Nationalization of Crime"

After having explained the plight of many will be affected by a few, he agreed but, stated that policies will surely be adjusted to meet the needs of the valid visitors as time progresses. They do not want to rid themsleves of tourist, visitors and other valid guests bringing needed and welcomed income to the nation.

You have been an asset to the visa issue discussion and I want to thank you dearly for that. I also want to state that last I checked, the bad guys were criminals. The bad guys don't make border runs. Criminals will do whatever they have to do to stay in business. They will A. overstay B. get set up with a visa from a sham marriage C. get a baseless Non O visa from a friendly consulate like Hull. These criminals were not racing out to get 3 mill baht visas so that suggestion is preposterous. Criminals will remain criminals and will break whatever law to stay in business. To suggest that these new visa regs will stop these crooks is ludicrous

[Big Dogster]

Livin' is right that the purpose of the new regs is to rid Thailand of the illegal workers as stated in the news article. Someone with a large bank account/pension is not going to toil around teaching English for 30K/month. Those folks are simply not going to enslave themselves for such a pittance when they are self made

[Big Dogster]

Here is a post in another thread:

Full Edit

Quick Edit

Johpa Today, 2006-09-16 06:09:37 Post #51

Senior Member

Group: Advanced Members

Posts: 951

Joined: 2004-04-27

Member No.: 9,366

QUOTE(The Coder @ 2006-09-14 19:12:08)

QUOTE(cclub75 @ 2006-09-14 19:03:21)

The real aim is to reduce (at least to control) the total number of foreigners living in Thailand.

While that may be the outcome, I don't think that is the goal. The goal is for everyone to obtain the appropriate type of visa for their situation.

I believe that the OP is correct, that there is a long term plan to lessen the recent trend of Farangs settling in with Thai wives around the country or investing in the country. This situation is percieved by the Bangkok elite as both a long term political and long term economic threat to the status quo, which benefits the existing elite, which remains vey much a Sino-Thai elite. Not wanting to shoot themselves in the foot, the elite will slowly tighten restrictions over time on various types of visas ranging from tourist to business to retirement visas. You want to stay then you must pay.

Although Farang based tourism as been one of the major economic engines for Thailand over the past three decades, the future of tourism, and other economic investment, will be more regional, with tourism from China becoming the major source of tourist money. If oil prices continue the long term sharp upwards trend, then affordable air travel to Asia from North America and Europe will become a thing of the past.

So don't kid yourself about the reasons for the trend towards tightening up visas.

Full Edit

Quick Edit

I think this poster raises an excellent consideration. The regs are to rid Thailand of the "undesireables or poverty packers". Several have suggested that these regs will have zero effect on the Thai economy. Bottom line is that when the crackdown hits those on the marriage visas who gloat in this very forum about how living expense of 20K per month is beyond adequate, they will not effect the Thai economy if and when they got the boot. These folks will be a very easy target for the next set of regs. These are the people who contribute the least of all to the economy.

[crocodilexp]

It is this criminal element that they want to surgically remove from the Thai economy with the least amount of damage to the valid Retirement, Tourist and other longterm visitors to their country.

I don't consider a jackhammer to be an ideal tool for surgery.

If they want to cut crime, why not do just that -- fight *crime*? Institute stringent identity checks/biometric IDs for all long term visitors (paid by the visitors, of course), and cross-check with interpol and bilaterally with other countries as often as possible. If a foreigner intends to be a criminal / fund crime in Thailand, I think there's an overwhelming likelihood that they have a record in their country of origin. There are so many other more efficient and less damaging ways to clean up foreign (and while we're at it, why not domestic?) crime -- the visa policy is pure irrational xenophobia.

What they're doing now is going to scare and affect mostly good, law-abiding people. Criminals have contacts, and will find a way to buy off a long term permit, by bribing officials, through fake marriage, WP etc. Thailand is NOT squeky clean, and people with money literally do get away with murder in the country. Criminals will have no qualms doing illegal things and will have few practical problems. Most honest people would balk at paying a major bribe (fake speeding tickets excluded), and even if they wanted probably wouldn't know who to turn to, and wouldn't care to ask. For criminals, this is not a problem at all.

This is sad beyond the visa issue -- in my mind, the main quality of the Thai nation was they were welcoming and accepting to everyone, not quick to pass judgement. The bureaucracy used to be a bit byzantine (requiring people to hop out and in every 30 days), but now it's becoming malicious, xenophobic and zealous to hurt the foreigners who are, on the balance, clearly contributing to Thailand's progress.

Edited September 16, 2006 by crocodilexp

[hopsing]

I understand Thailand is trying to 'clean up' its act and understand how longstay, living on 20k per month, el cheapo, visa runners seem the target of this.. Yet while attempting to target these people they are hitting a much larger section of the resident farang population who by and large are a net benefit to Thailand.

It seems to me.. The problem exists due to there simply not being a legal option for the under 50's who retire early and do not wish to marry. There are other segments effected (those working is poor sectors that Thais are not able to do yet still benefit Thailand, diving, english language, etc) but I will get to them in a minute.

Why not scrap the retirement 50 age and insist on seeing the 800k transfered from outside Thailand annually. This gives the people who claim to be a financial benefit to Thailand the chance to do so. This gives people a legal method to stay long term if they are a positive financial benefit, and does weed out those that work in Thailand illegally and just eek out a living getting by. It sorts out the so called poverty packers and legitimises those that (I think) thailand should want ??

Legit short term tourists are served by VOA's and Tourist visa's.

People can 'sniff the wind' about setting up home for the length of a tourist visa (multi) obtained in thier home country.

High net worth individuals are given a legal channel to exist long term and spend money into the Thai economy.

Us high net worth individuals are not concerned about this new law...we have property investments and Thailand Elite!!!

Illegal workers are either forced out or the industries are forced to raise standards and legallity to cover them, prices will inevitably rise in some industries to cover those costs but thats the breaks of legal workforces.

It could even be possible for some or all schools to have some break in minimum wage for English teaching (and even Diving if the net gain of tourism is deemed higher than the 'cost' of farang existing cheaply and working) as it is helpful to the long term development of Thailand. The mimum wage 'bar' can be set as high or low for this industry or for the 'approved and accredited' schools wherever the Thai gov feels that they can afford the correct level of trained staff v the cost to the industry and schools. All very easy to tweak and adapt through min wage for industry for registered businesses.

Sorry if this sounds like an oversimplification but doesnt his one 'tweak' pretty much mean they accomplish what they want and shut up 99% of the whining (legitimate complaining ??) thats going on here ??

Am I just not thinking 'Thai' about this.. Seems so simple to sort out.

[wpcoe]

However, in the last few days I have met 3 single/divorced people who don't have the required 800,000 available at call for a retirement visa, and whose o/s funds fall shy of the monthly income requirement. These are decent men and women who live frugally and work as volunteers in orphanages, and give free English lessons. Respectful and giving people, who would like the chance to stay but cannot. I feel sorry that these people are discriminated against by a government that equates "quality" with the size of a foreigner's bank balance.

Even if these decent men & women could obtain a Retirement Visa, they would be violating immigration law by doing volunteer work: even volunteer work requires a work permit and appropriate visa. Sad, but true.

One option they might have is if they know any folks (probably back in the home country) who could give them a short-term loan to beef up the Thai bank account until such time as their Retirement Visa is approved, they could export the money back to pay off the loan once they have the visa. I agree that it's a kludgy workaround, but maybe it could work for them? And, of course, it would be an annual event for visa renewal/extension.

[opebo]

Livin' is right that the purpose of the new regs is to rid Thailand of the illegal workers as stated in the news article. Someone with a large bank account/pension is not going to toil around teaching English for 30K/month. Those folks are simply not going to enslave themselves for such a pittance when they are self made

Good points, except I would note one caveat - most us in this category are not 'self-made', but rather simply come from well-off families.

[ovenman]

I spoke to a high ranking Police friend of mine and he is under the impression that a lot of Thailands undesirable activity is funded by farang or other visitors from Europe and other locations to include Russia, North America, Japan, China and other many places.

That's kinda funny. I've always had the impression that the majority of Thailand's criminal activity was perpetrated by Thais.

It is this criminal element that they want to surgically remove from the Thai economy with the least amount of damage to the valid Retirement, Tourist and other longterm visitors to their country.

If they want to cut crime, why not do just that -- fight *crime*?

Well put.

Mouse, if there were a way to ask your police friend the following politely, I wonder whether any of the powers-that-be have ever considered that the reason that any foreign criminal elements congregate in Thailand is more attributable to lax policing within the country rather than lenient immigrations policy?

This all reminds me of the old Thai urban myth that in a vehicular accident involving a farang and a Thai, the fault always lies with the foreigner because were the foreigner back home where they belonged, the accident would have never occurred.

[loveandlaughter]

I always thought international criminals would be cash rich anyway......

[endure]

Thailand isn't the only country with retirement visa programs. There are such all over the world in countries at a similar stage of development as Thailand. It is a hot ticket for many countries, and Thailand is competing with these countries for quality retirees. Some of these countries have come to the solution of the earlier retirement issue by having a TWO TIERED system of financial requirements. The younger retirees are asked to show MORE money.

Which is what Thailand had until 1998. The criteria were 55/500,000bt and 60/200,000bt. In 1998 they lowered the age to 50 and uppped the cash to 800,000 (or relevant income instead).

[joka]

Isn't there some sort of human rights issue involved in marriage? I mean, the government can seperate families and deport people because they don't have enough money? Maybe they can cut out their liver and sell it to the rich alcoholic to come up with the cash!

[drummer]

Except that the 'poverty packers' add to the Thai economy as well. Everyone one of them that I know gets infusions of cash from their folks or savings back home at regular intervals. Then there is the economic argument that they spend all their money in Thailand, and create jobs in other areas. Many taxi drivers, Beer Singha employees, travel agents, apartment managers, security guards, Som Tham ladies, and lawyers have jobs because of these guys. it is a net loss to the system.

While I tend to agree that these people are often a net gain for Thailand it would seem clear that Thailand is raiding the bar and no longer wants these pople..

Trying to find a situation where the new rules effect only those they claim to wish to push out was my intention.

Thailand claims to want to keep high net worth individuals who spend money here, they claim to want to push out the illegal workers and those struggling to get by. To me the above tweaks seem to solve the vast majority of thier wishes and doesnt through the baby out with the bathwater

But there is already the Thai Elite club. You can buy a premanent visa for a million THB...

[drummer]

I spoke to a high ranking Police friend of mine and he is under the impression that a lot of Thailands undesirable activity is funded by farang or other visitors

hahahaha ... thats a good one. These people get by anywhere in the world. They have enough money to buy whatever and whomever they want, generally speaking. Thai Residency is no problem! They could do make the laws as strict as they want and still not keep these people out. They could, in fact, kick out every foreigner in Thailand... every european, Japanese, Chinese, malaysia, Philipino, and all the luuk kungs and still not make it go away.

Why?

There is money to be made and it it was a matter of buying residency, well, thats no problem. (they already have the Thai Elite Club - its not even that expensive) If that was impossible, then it would be quiteeasy to get Thai business partners to go in for them. I have been given to understand that the foreign mafias here all have Thai partners anyway.

But then, mafias are everywhere. There isn't a country without organized crime, probably never has been.

If they really wanted to catch these people(as they should!) , they'd link up to Interpol and clean up corruption locally...

[drummer]

However, in the last few days I have met 3 single/divorced people who don't have the required 800,000 available at call for a retirement visa, and whose o/s funds fall shy of the monthly income requirement. These are decent men and women who live frugally and work as volunteers in orphanages, and give free English lessons. Respectful and giving people, who would like the chance to stay but cannot. I feel sorry that these people are discriminated against by a government that equates "quality" with the size of a foreigner's bank balance.

There is another aspect to consider, though - one of the reasons I am quite likely to be off soon:

If they have money, its because they were outstandingly good people in their last lives. Apparantly Thaksin was a Mother Theresa of sorts. And while many Thais are not particularly fond of Thaksin, they still give him massive respect because his spirit in his last life was amazingly good. Any bad deeds he does in tis life will be visited upon him in the next, and if he backslids he backslids.

Also true, is that if you are poor, dark, deformed, or just plain poor and ugly its because you were pretty dispicible in your last life. Not only do you deserve to be treated badly, as punishment (you social status is all the proof one needs) but your spirit is obviously that of a criminal.

Thus, getting rid of poor people = getting rid of the criminals.

While I have MASSIVE, MASSIVE respect for Buddhism, (I can talk for hours about it, I really can) this is one aspect that is misapplied and, to speak straight, extremely distasteful to me. You can tell if an idea is good or bad by its effects, and the effects of this idea is to hurt others and cloud your vision.