Pope asks pardon for church's 'crimes' against indigenous

[arjunadawn]

I am not religious. I am not a believer. I do not like Institutionalized Religion. I know enough of History.

I have read all the posts above. And I am disgusted. Not by what is said but by the way it is expressed.

The frothing on the mouth vitriol hatred expressed hysterically using a fishmongers vocabulary (with one exception only).

Shame on you.

As to the many rhetorical questions - here are some answers to ponder over:

1) Christianity is about 2000 years old. Of its three major schools the most morbid, backward and degrading is not Catholicism or Protestantism but Orthodox branch.

Without wishing to go into debates - enough to look at where are the countries embracing this religion - Greece and Russia. Enough said here.

2) The Holy Catholic Church has many sins on its conscience. However it has evolved, it is progressing. It is trying to atone and apologise for its sins and tragic mistakes.

Bad moment to badmouth it for these attempts. It might please you to know that the Orthodox brothers of Catholics are also badmouthing the Pope just like you as we speak.

3) To the 'lovers of comparison' between Catholics and Islamists - Islam in the 1300 years of its existence is responsible for over 100 million lives. True - they are more direct -

it is off with your head or limbs or conversion. Well, let me choose neither of the two. But Eternal Damnation in Hell is at least a delayed sentence and also very questionable.

4) It is absolutely useless to even mention Judaism in this comparison. Reason one - it is only embraced by approximately one in a million of humans.

Reason two - it is a 'closed' religion to any of us. In other words we do not even exist for them. Not only they will never try to convert you, but even if you decide to join - forget it!

The third reason I do not want to explain here as it is offensive to all of us.

5) Unfortunately ban on all Religions is not on unless you are willing to go to bleating in unison "Two legs good, four legs better".

IAW my beliefs I generally hold that religion provides a valid vehicle for humans to have the madness of existence assuaged externally until various individuals are able, of their own accord, to penetrate the interior and commune directly. When this happens these select become enlightened in spite of the church, not because of it. Until such a time as they reach escape velocity from the chains of the lay they are ostracized, condemned, labeled, marginalized, etc. When the few actually do escape and touch the mind of god they are beautified, adored, and worshiped as intercessors. I illustrate this point only to note christian religion provides a framework to manage existence in a collective flock, for the generally numb. When those select few commune more directly it is often not because of an inherent road-map offered by the faith it is often in spite of the obstacles to not run with the flock. But once madly insanely in love with god, and obviously beloved by god, they are then revered, and claimed as icons. But it nearly always happens in spite of the restrictions of faith. This is just my point of view. So, I hold that religion, on a number of levels, is not good or bad, it just is and to argue its existence or merit to exist is simply ignorant. It is the natural inclination of man and a cursory look at religion shows its relative maturing through the ages as well.

I indict Islam, I note muslims particularly when they are slaughtering others. I indict the papacy, I do not indict Christians. I indict islam and the papacy equally. They are both theocratic. Until the papacy again began inserting itself in global and national politics I refrained from any comments, and christians are not generally slaughtering planet earth, so I rarely comment on believers. The papacy and islam pose the same theocratic threat. Nearly 2,000 years of western history suggest I could hardly be mistaken. It might be argued that I am mistaken about current papal intent, but not about the fact that if I am correct theocracy is a threat. Islam, on the other hand, is a clear and present danger to all life on earth. You are not entirely correct with the figure of 100,000,000. There were approximately 90-100 million Indians alone killed during that great jihad. Various places have estimated the losses from islam's savagery at hundreds of millions. 100 million is way to conservative.

I found the comments on the orthodox church very interesting though I admit I do not understand. I ask how is the church atoning? I see apologies but this are vacant without works.

BTW, I do not bad mouth the pope. One has to recognize some spiritual or temporal legitimacy in order to accept the premise that an accommodation should be afforded. I reject the assertion the pope is entitled to any more sanctity or deference then a street cleaner, a taxi driver, or old lady living on cat food. He is entitled to the decency of my conscience and circumspection as a human but once he stops being a religious figure and enters politics it is game on. This pope has decidedly entered politics!

Note: There is no comparison between the catholic church and islam. The church is utterly enlightened in contrast. There could not be two greater contrasts to posit.

Edited July 16, 2015 by arjunadawn

[gerryBScot]

Mostly a load of anti-Catholic gibberish and now I wish I hadn't read the thread! I accept folk don't like the Church and Catholics. I come from a part of the world where sectarianism in the form of anti-catholicism was and is rampant. I stand up to bigots and racists. Anglo-saxon culture is underpinned by a profound level of anti-catholic and anti-Irish sentiment. It really gets people going for reasons I don't understand. The Church did not invent evil, the Church does not monopolise paedophilia, sure it has a problem, but so does the British establishment and the Mother of Parliaments, leave us alone <deleted>. This Pope is a great guy, a breath of fresh air and commands revulsion in some quarters, here and elsewhere, because he is media savvy and has a good grasp of the real issues in the world. Give credit it where it is due. Fortunately Francis willl not be taking much notice of what is written here including this apologia.

[h90]

a key one being the need to change what he called an unjust global economic system that excludes the poor. He said it should be replaced with a "communitarian economy" involving the "fitting distribution" of the Earth's resources.

I'm sure he will be at the forefront leading the charge by distributing the multi-billion dollar wealth of the Vatican to the poor.

He did a lot already....specially with the Vatican bank and about cardinals who spend too much money. As well he doesn't order clothes for millions like the previous popes did.

So indeed he is doing something.

[thaibeachlovers]

The Catholic church is obscenely wealthy from exploiting poor and foolish people all over the globe..and they are tax exempt!

They should be held responsible and forced to pay retribution to all they have harmed.

But if I recall my childhood indoctrination to Catholicism, you can be wrong and evil for your entire life, but if you confess and say you are sorry before you die, all is forgiven...

Good luck with that!

An apoligy just does not cut it here Pope..pay up!

I believe there is a bit more to repentance than merely saying sorry. As I recall, it was actually Jesus that said if you truly repent of your sins you shall enter Heaven. He also had something to say about what is in your heart as opposed to what you say.

I guess if that is true, Heaven will have few souls in it.

[thaibeachlovers]

Mostly a load of anti-Catholic gibberish and now I wish I hadn't read the thread! I accept folk don't like the Church and Catholics. I come from a part of the world where sectarianism in the form of anti-catholicism was and is rampant. I stand up to bigots and racists. Anglo-saxon culture is underpinned by a profound level of anti-catholic and anti-Irish sentiment. It really gets people going for reasons I don't understand. The Church did not invent evil, the Church does not monopolise paedophilia, sure it has a problem, but so does the British establishment and the Mother of Parliaments, leave us alone <deleted>. This Pope is a great guy, a breath of fresh air and commands revulsion in some quarters, here and elsewhere, because he is media savvy and has a good grasp of the real issues in the world. Give credit it where it is due. Fortunately Francis willl not be taking much notice of what is written here including this apologia.

One of the tenents of Christianity is to give to the poor "if you have 2 coats give one to the poor" and all that, plus camels, eye's of needles and heaven etc, yet the clergy that reside in the vatican do so in unimaginable splendour to the poor of the world. If Christ were to return to the earth today, I imagine he'd be casting them out of the House of God, as he once did to the money changers.

I condemn the Catholic church for it's hypocrisy.

I come from a part of the world where sectarianism in the form of anti-catholicism was and is rampant

Assuming you mean Ireland, that's political, rather than religious. The same behaviour was exibited against the American Indians by the European invaders and was nothing to do with religion.

Edited July 17, 2015 by thaibeachlovers

[willyumiii]

The Catholic church is obscenely wealthy from exploiting poor and foolish people all over the globe..and they are tax exempt!

They should be held responsible and forced to pay retribution to all they have harmed.

But if I recall my childhood indoctrination to Catholicism, you can be wrong and evil for your entire life, but if you confess and say you are sorry before you die, all is forgiven...

Good luck with that!

An apoligy just does not cut it here Pope..pay up!

I believe there is a bit more to repentance than merely saying sorry. As I recall, it was actually Jesus that said if you truly repent of your sins you shall enter Heaven. He also had something to say about what is in your heart as opposed to what you say.

I guess if that is true, Heaven will have few souls in it.

Jesus said that?

Really?

In what language was he speaking?

To be honest, I have never heard a word he spoke or read anything he ever wrote.

So, who said that he said that?

Do you believe it is the truth?

Christianity is an extremely profitable superstition consisting of many lies and fantasies.

Eternity is a very long term commitment.

I would seek some real proof before investing....

[thaibeachlovers]

The Catholic church is obscenely wealthy from exploiting poor and foolish people all over the globe..and they are tax exempt!

They should be held responsible and forced to pay retribution to all they have harmed.

But if I recall my childhood indoctrination to Catholicism, you can be wrong and evil for your entire life, but if you confess and say you are sorry before you die, all is forgiven...

Good luck with that!

An apoligy just does not cut it here Pope..pay up!

I believe there is a bit more to repentance than merely saying sorry. As I recall, it was actually Jesus that said if you truly repent of your sins you shall enter Heaven. He also had something to say about what is in your heart as opposed to what you say.

I guess if that is true, Heaven will have few souls in it.

Jesus said that?

Really?

In what language was he speaking?

To be honest, I have never heard a word he spoke or read anything he ever wrote.

So, who said that he said that?

Do you believe it is the truth?

Christianity is an extremely profitable superstition consisting of many lies and fantasies.

Eternity is a very long term commitment.

I would seek some real proof before investing....

[tartempion]

AYJAYDEE and notmyself - go back to home work.

Very poor knowledge of the subject.

As for myself - as mentioned - no vested interests. I am not going into debates on religious matters.

Let me point out a few more things I have missed in my yesterday's post.

1) people here forget the "positive" aspects of any Religion - great impact on Culture. Neither Architecture, nor Painting or Music would be the same without Rome.

Forgetting Cultural aspect is not surprising given the language they use here.

2) whether they are right or wrong - there is about 900 million Catholics. Why insult the lot? Or are you encouraged by the fact that non of you miserable sods will get blown up to pieces?

I think it is not nice and not wise.

Finally, you didn't answer my direct accusation. I repeat it again:

I was and still am disgusted not so much by most of the posts content but by the language they used.

Any objections to this?

Als of The age of 10 I have been brainwashed by adults (teachers an priests) to put my fate and faith into the Catholic Church, I had to take their dogmas as the only truth on earth. Please read the first 10 pages of the catechismus. I found These dogmas to be not just wrong but also inhuman. It is my freedom to loathe all religions.

I am for the eradication of religion, does that offend you?

[thaibeachlovers]

The Catholic church is obscenely wealthy from exploiting poor and foolish people all over the globe..and they are tax exempt!

They should be held responsible and forced to pay retribution to all they have harmed.

But if I recall my childhood indoctrination to Catholicism, you can be wrong and evil for your entire life, but if you confess and say you are sorry before you die, all is forgiven...

Good luck with that!

An apoligy just does not cut it here Pope..pay up!

I believe there is a bit more to repentance than merely saying sorry. As I recall, it was actually Jesus that said if you truly repent of your sins you shall enter Heaven. He also had something to say about what is in your heart as opposed to what you say.

I guess if that is true, Heaven will have few souls in it.

Jesus said that?

Really?

In what language was he speaking?

To be honest, I have never heard a word he spoke or read anything he ever wrote.

So, who said that he said that?

Do you believe it is the truth?

Christianity is an extremely profitable superstition consisting of many lies and fantasies.

Eternity is a very long term commitment.

I would seek some real proof before investing....

Sorry, I did not intend for the off topic icon to stay on, but the software confused me and it got on at the top by mistake.

[fang37]

Compensation should be determined in a similar fashion to the masses.

Problem is that religious have had it too good for too long eg an exemption from income tax, property tax. Religious bodies own prime real estate.

Do the crime; do the time.

[ThaiKneeTim]

Who committed more crimes to humanity than the Holy Catholic Church?

Any one?

The Christian Church would be top o' the heap.

The Catholic Church is a Christian church, just one of the many factions of christianity, and Christianity is, like Islam, an Abrahamic breakaway from Judaism. Jesus was a Jew.

Just joining the dots for you there!