Inquiry on forming a Usufruct

[makio67]

Hello to All,

An acquaintance of mine who is a British National residing in Cambodia is buying a condo in Jomtien Thailand for investment purposes. In return for partial payment from me of the condo, he is giving me (Canadian Expat with OA Visa been in Thailand for two years) a Usufruct for the rest of my life. I am 63. The Brit. will cover condo fees, insurance as well as maintenance.

Question: Is this straightforward with the land Office?

Where do we get a contract, that the land office will honor and accept?

I understand there is a tax, but I read different numbers 1%, 1.5%, 0.1%.

Will an Attorney help or hinder at the land office?

Do we declare what was paid for the Usufruct or does the land office determine the value?

Any remarks, comments, suggestions, advice will be appreciated.

[h90]

Can't help on that, but want to warn you that there a million of stories like that that went bad.

Like he bought the condo, you see the condo, you see the documents, you make the contract and the partial payment and at the end he did not buy the condo, everything was a setup.....

Having seen exactly that, just with: Buying land, build bungalows on a nice islands at the end many nice people lost a lot money.....

(All involved person were Swedish so surely not your friend)

[cdnvic]

Try the real estate forum. You'll get more knowledgeable advice here.

[blackcab]

The first question I would ask is how is he calculating the returns on his investment? A lot of people do not make money on condos. Some people do, to be fair, but in general these people know the market well.

Do the usufruct the same day the property is purchased. Then everyone can go to the Land Office together and you can take your payment to the Land Office at the same time. That way everyone can be happy.

Usufructs cost just a few baht to register but make sure first that the Land Office in your area will register them. Go speak to the Land Office first.

You do not need a lawyer but I seriously suggest you take a Thai speaker who has good English skills with you.

[taiping]

Strange story - why would someone in the process of buying a condo give a lifetime Usufruct to you for a "partial payment"?

I bought my condo in Thailand with a Usufruct in 1983, before a farang could legally buy a condo. The law was changed in around 1992, allowing foreigners to buy condos (up to 49% of total ownership), when the condo owner/developer transferred the title deed to my name.

But to do this I had to bring in foreign currency again to register the title at the Land Department. In other words, I had to bring in the funds twice, firstly to buy the condo on the Usufruct, and then to transfer the title deed. Fortunately, I had sufficient funds available to do this.

At the time I did not consult a lawyer, but I did rewrite parts of the Usufruct Agreement to be more to my liking, and the condo developer agreed with the changes.

I think you should think long and hard on all the possible pitfalls of your friend's proposal and consult a lawyer.

There are generally so many problems with condo management in Thailand that I don't recommend buying a condo here, even with the title deed.

[sanuk711]

Like most of the other posters makio67-------its odd to say the least, do you mean you will then pay rent to him--- or he has to wait untill you die before he can get any return on his property .?....................How old is he ..........????

Has the Condo been built ?? --- re the tax its regulated on how long the last owner held it for (with a 5 year cap) so if you buy then sell quickly you pay the maximum amount, then it goes down with each year you have owned it (it was supposed to stop property speculation). You can massage the figurs of the sale in the land office (if it is a 2nd hand Condo) Just dont go to over the top.

Buying & selling in Thailand is relativly easy---but I really would see a lawyer for this one..................

I dont want to be over dramatic--but they have this saying in Thailand that usually pertians to marrying a Thai lady------ dont be worth more dead then you are alive.

Edited July 11, 2015 by sanuk711

[Langeman]

NEWER DO that in your life.Scheme

[nithisa78]

An attorney is the land office. One can only help. Ask the lawyer would be a much safer bet than ask the world.

[GOLDBUGGY]

I am also a Canadian around your age and who did this just recently. But I did this for a house and also several parcels of land. My wife bought this from another Thai which means there was a transfer of land ownership, which you will not have to do. That cost was 56,000 Baht, but the seller agreed to pay this himself.

For the Usufruct my wife and I went to see a Lawyer together about this. We got her draw up the Usufruct for us as my Wife was soon to be the the owner of this property now. It cost us 15,000 Baht but as I said it included several parcels of land besides the house. I am sure it would be much less for you. My Wife (Owner) and myself (Leasee) signed this document in the presence of the lawyer, who then signed as a Witness.

After the transfer of the land to my wife, we gave the Land Titles Office our Unufruct as well. They kept it and are were supposed to attached it to the tile they keep there. My wife said the cost of that was free, but I am not so sure about that. I did see the Land Titles take my Usufruct.

Having said that, and especially if you are new to Thailand, I would never get int the deal you are looking at for several reasons. One reason is that because it is a Condo, you have no control over the people who live next to you. You have no idea how bad that can be. I lived in a Condo in the same place as you want to, for 2 years, and that was like a life time to me.

The beautiful quiet place you see in the days time may turn into a hell hole, from the sing-long bar that newly opens across the street. That new air-conditioner breaks down and nobody will fix it. So many things My Friend. Also I made this deal with My Wife. Even if everything went South I have some protection through marriage. You will have nothing. There is also so many empty places there already that you could choose and barter the price down a lot.

My Advice it don't do it!

[blackcab]

I am also a Canadian around your age and who did this just recently. But I did this for a house and also several parcels of land. My wife bought this from another Thai which means there was a transfer of land ownership, which you will not have to do. That cost was 56,000 Baht, but the seller agreed to pay this himself.

For the Usufruct my wife and I went to see a Lawyer together about this. We got her draw up the Usufruct for us as my Wife was soon to be the the owner of this property now. It cost us 15,000 Baht but as I said it included several parcels of land besides the house. I am sure it would be much less for you. My Wife (Owner) and myself (Leasee) signed this document in the presence of the lawyer, who then signed as a Witness.

After the transfer of the land to my wife, we gave the Land Titles Office our Unufruct as well. They kept it and are were supposed to attached it to the tile they keep there. My wife said the cost of that was free, but I am not so sure about that. I did see the Land Titles take my Usufruct.

Having said that, and especially if you are new to Thailand, I would never get int the deal you are looking at for several reasons. One reason is that because it is a Condo, you have no control over the people who live next to you. You have no idea how bad that can be. I lived in a Condo in the same place as you want to, for 2 years, and that was like a life time to me.

The beautiful quiet place you see in the days time may turn into a hell hole, from the sing-long bar that newly opens across the street. That new air-conditioner breaks down and nobody will fix it. So many things My Friend. Also I made this deal with My Wife. Even if everything went South I have some protection through marriage. You will have nothing. There is also so many empty places there already that you could choose and barter the price down a lot.

My Advice it don't do it!

Have you checked the Chanotes to see if the usufruct is recorded on them?

[GOLDBUGGY]

I am also a Canadian around your age and who did this just recently. But I did this for a house and also several parcels of land. My wife bought this from another Thai which means there was a transfer of land ownership, which you will not have to do. That cost was 56,000 Baht, but the seller agreed to pay this himself.

For the Usufruct my wife and I went to see a Lawyer together about this. We got her draw up the Usufruct for us as my Wife was soon to be the the owner of this property now. It cost us 15,000 Baht but as I said it included several parcels of land besides the house. I am sure it would be much less for you. My Wife (Owner) and myself (Leasee) signed this document in the presence of the lawyer, who then signed as a Witness.

After the transfer of the land to my wife, we gave the Land Titles Office our Unufruct as well. They kept it and are were supposed to attached it to the tile they keep there. My wife said the cost of that was free, but I am not so sure about that. I did see the Land Titles take my Usufruct.

Having said that, and especially if you are new to Thailand, I would never get int the deal you are looking at for several reasons. One reason is that because it is a Condo, you have no control over the people who live next to you. You have no idea how bad that can be. I lived in a Condo in the same place as you want to, for 2 years, and that was like a life time to me.

The beautiful quiet place you see in the days time may turn into a hell hole, from the sing-long bar that newly opens across the street. That new air-conditioner breaks down and nobody will fix it. So many things My Friend. Also I made this deal with My Wife. Even if everything went South I have some protection through marriage. You will have nothing. There is also so many empty places there already that you could choose and barter the price down a lot.

My Advice it don't do it!

Have you checked the Chanotes to see if the usufruct is recorded on them?

Actually you raise a very good point. I am not sure as I am not sure what to look for.

I do know that when we bought he property the house and land were clear title. I saw the Land Title Certificate and it was survey but I can't read Thai. So I trusted my Thai Wife, who I have been with now for 8 years, and her father, who is the Headman in the Village. The people we bought from have lived here a long time and my wife grew up knowing them.

I do know we had to wait a week or so to get something from Land Titles. Some books showing our new residence I think, but never really looked, as again it is all in Thai.

What exactly do I need to look at and more importantly were can i find this?

[blackcab]

When you look at the inside page of the Chanote you will see a list of transactions. You will clearly see this because they are in date order. The date is in the first column. Older entries might use Thai numbers for the date but new entries will use regular numbers.

You are interested in the entries with the latest dates. (If the page is full there will be an insert sheet stapled into the Chanote, but it will be very obvious it's a continuation page).

Take a photo of those entries and either post it here or PM me. Either someone here will translate it or I'll get my staff to do it.

Either way you'll get an unbiased reply.

If you post on the forum remember to obscure your wife's name unless you want to check it's her name on the Chanote.

[makio67]

Thank You everyone from Makio67.

As always, there is the full spectrum of opinions. But to answer a few of the questions to my questions;

1) Yes I will definitely use a Lawyer (one that is familiar with Usufruct).

2) The seller and the buyer did not know each other. I have initiated the connection as I've known both parties for a number of years.

3) I believe both parties are of good faith, but as Reagan was fond of saying "Trust and VERIFY, then, VERIFY AGAIN."

4) Condo was bought by seller three years ago and I was present at the buildout (completion of the interior).

5) I will be using Land Office documentation AND will declare the payment AND pay the tax.

Once again Thank You and I will keep Thai Visa undated on the outcome of this venture.

Different subject: I have done an in depth survey on Vaccines available in ChonBuri and Bangkok. Location, cost, availability etc. Am I allowed to post this on Thai Visa as it names Hospitals, prices and many other commentaries???? I do not know how to post this?

[blackcab]

Post in the Health forum, which I find to be very good indeed.