Interesting Straight Dope column about Thailand - Why are there so many "ladyboys" in Thailand?

[acepredator]

I have been a follower of The Straight Dope for countless years. Those enjoying the good life here (or maybe even those who aren't) might find the most recent column of interest.

Why are there so many "ladyboys" in Thailand?

July 31, 2015

Dear Cecil:

Why are there so many “ladyboys” in Thailand, and why are they such a huge part of the sex industry? Also, what’s up with the ping-pong-ball act?

— Luke, an Ohioan in Bangkok

Cecil replies:

“Pick sexier topics,” the Straight Dope staffers are always complaining. “Stop writing about the environment and give us something hashtaggable.” Well, here you go: a column on possibly the most notorious sex industry in the world. But the joke’s on them, because half of this is going to be about Buddhism, and the other half about the foreign-economy-warping might of American military power. Still: sex, religion, and guns — what’s more compelling to the American demographic than that?

To start with the possibly obvious, the Thai sex trade is booming: it’s estimated there are some 200,000 prostitutes in the country, and the industry produces $2.5 billion to $4 billion each year, or around 1 percent of GDP. (A comparable percentage in the U.S. comes from “arts, entertainment, and recreation” — which I suppose might cover some of the same things.) Kathoey — Thai slang for transgender women; the English term “ladyboy” is widely considered pretty offensive — are often the most visible part of the industry, even if the estimated rate of transgender people in the population is the same as in most other countries, roughly 0.3 percent.

Even outside the sex industry, transgender women in Thailand may be more socially integrated than their peers elsewhere in the world — in one study of 200 trans women there, the subjects were found on average to be better educated and more affluent than the country as a whole. And contrary to the suspicions of some, every participant in the study identified as female or transgender; none were men dressing up as women solely in order to attract tourist cash. But, thanks in large part to the sex trade, Thai trans women have become a more visible part of the cultural landscape than their counterparts in the U.S. and most other countries. So what gives?

Much of it, it turns out, is probably Buddhism. The religion was adopted in Thailand by way of India about 800 years ago, and 95 percent of Thais now identify as Buddhist. Traditional Buddhists were never exactly sold on the whole sex idea in general. Reaching nirvana means achieving the absence of all desire, and sticking anything into pretty much any bodily orifice amounts to spiritual defeat for a monk, “even if only the width of a sesame seed” (not an optimistic bunch, these guys). It wasn’t for lack of thinking about it: the Buddhist code of monastic conduct called the Vinaya lists 27 categories of people, creatures, and objects that one shouldn’t have sex with, including men, women, dead women whose flesh has or hasn’t been eaten away by animals, female monkeys, wooden dolls . . . you get the picture. Amid this overall disdain for getting off, heterosexual sex and homosexual sex were viewed as (at least for monks) equally sinful.

Transsexualism is also surprisingly well-defined in Buddhist scripture, and is described in great detail in several stories. The historian Peter Jackson has argued that pre-existing Thai notions of gender interacted with Buddhist thought in a way that uniquely conflated gayness with transness; for many years gay men were simply understood as having women’s desires, and often referred to as kathoey too. But while same-sex inclinations were long thought in Thai Buddhism to be sinful, they were also thought to be congenital — meaning they couldn’t be changed during a person’s lifetime, and therefore had to be accepted.

Of course, this doesn’t exactly constitute a Caitlyn-Jenner-on-the-cover-of-Vanity Fair level of public acceptance — no one’s claiming Thailand is a perfect role model for the equal-rights movement. But compared to Christianity’s effects in the West, Buddhism has helped create a society that's probably more accepting of divergence from traditional orientation and gender norms; Jackson describes Thai gay and trans subcultures that are notably vibrant, if idiosyncratic.

The sex-industry part of the story is much simpler. When American troops fought in the Vietnam War, roughly 700,000 of them passed at some point through Thailand, the U.S. military’s official rest-and-relaxation area. Their spending in restaurants, bars, and brothels exceeded 40 percent of Thailand’s export earnings, all happily paid for by the American government, and produced a proliferation of sex-based businesses. See also: the Philippines while the U.S. had bases there, and Korea during the Korean War and since.

To complete the equation, transgender populations all over the world are much more heavily involved in prostitution than the population at large, because thus far no society is so accepting of transness that it’s simple for a publicly transgender person to find other employment. Here in the U.S., the National Trans Discrimination Survey reported in 2011 that 26 percent of transgender people had lost their jobs due to gender identity/expression and 11 percent had done sex work for income. With Thailand’s high-profile sex trade, these trends stand out all the more.

As for that ping-pong-ball trick, let’s just say the physics behind it is pretty simple. The rest I’ll leave to your imagination and/or your Google search history.

— Cecil Adams

Send questions to Cecil via [email protected].
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/3240/why-are-there-so-many-transgender-women-in-thailand

Edited August 2, 2015 by george
formatting

[bangkapi]

I attribute it to so much soy in the Thai diet which mutates and feminizes male chromosomes.

And more recently, the huge amount of hormones injected into the chickens has also messed up male chromosomes.

That, in my opinion, is why there are so many ladyboys. And I stand by it.

[toonsai]

It has always been a big question mark for me... Buddhism does not explain all. Not only Thailand is Buddhist but it is only in Thailand that you can see that huge proportion of ladyboys. There must be some rational explanations. Food might be one. More exactly food poisoning with all the chemicals and pesticides they use here...

But in all cases, I believe Thailand is the only country in the World with this huge proportion of ladyboys and transgenders.

[green job]

Most are not real transgender,they are men in drag scamming for punters. Ladymen A good earner

[Jdiddy]

I attribute it to so much soy in the Thai diet which mutates and feminizes male chromosomes.

And more recently, the huge amount of hormones injected into the chickens has also messed up male chromosomes.

That, in my opinion, is why there are so many ladyboys. And I stand by it.

+insane amount of plastic everywhere

[willyumiii]

I attribute it to so much soy in the Thai diet which mutates and feminizes male chromosomes.

And more recently, the huge amount of hormones injected into the chickens has also messed up male chromosomes.

That, in my opinion, is why there are so many ladyboys. And I stand by it.

If you get out of the cities most of the chicken they eat is raised in the village without any hormones or any kind of drugs at all. There is a very high percentage of lady boys here in the rural areas...and I will bet a good many f them in the city and other sex tourist come from rural Thailand, just like many of the bar girls do.

Can you please explain how any diet can mutate chromosomes?

Is this new science or just something you came up with?

I believe DNA and chromosomes are established before birth and can't be altered after birth.

[Chicken George]

Soy milk and plastics. Thats the reason.

[Jaggg88]

I attribute it to so much soy in the Thai diet which mutates and feminizes male chromosomes.

And more recently, the huge amount of hormones injected into the chickens has also messed up male chromosomes.

That, in my opinion, is why there are so many ladyboys. And I stand by it.

If you get out of the cities most of the chicken they eat is raised in the village without any hormones or any kind of drugs at all. There is a very high percentage of lady boys here in the rural areas...and I will bet a good many f them in the city and other sex tourist come from rural Thailand, just like many of the bar girls do.

Can you please explain how any diet can mutate chromosomes?

Is this new science or just something you came up with?

I believe DNA and chromosomes are established before birth and can't be altered after birth.

The best theory to date is that a hormone unbalance in the mothers womb can cause a male foetus to develop a female brain and visa versa for the female foetus. This theory is based on the level of Testosterone in the early development of the foetus. Too much and the female foetus develops a male brain and too little and a male foetus will develop a female brain. This hasn't been proven yet but it does make sense.

[weegee]

"It beats working in a real job"...why work when you can get something for nothing more than a night out.....

[alanrchase]

There are two next door to me. Nothing to do with the sex industry, they are who they choose to be. No one bats an eyelid. Not just Thailand, seems quite common in SE Asia.

[Seastallion]

Soy milk and plastics. Thats the reason.

If you read and comprehended the OP, and read a bit more about the subject, you would know that there is not a greater proportion of trans in Thailand than the world average....they are just more in your face.

Indeed soy can have an affect with it's oestrogen-like componant.....in high doses over a long time....but there is no evidence to suggest Thailand's soy consumption is higher than anywhere else.

Plastics....I think can have an effect on us...but to ladyboy...I'm not so sure. Otherwise, long-term farang would be turning.

[Seastallion]

"Here in the U.S., the National Trans Discrimination Survey reported in 2011 that 26 percent of transgender people had lost their jobs due to gender identity/expression"

I think Thai employers don't give a stuff. Unless it's the army.

So that is not a contributing factor to drifting to the sex industry.

[acepredator]

I lived in South Korea for many years. Koreans eat far more soy than Thais, and yet ladyboys there are unheard of, except maybe in Itaewon, the G.I. and foreigner area of Seoul. Even there, you might see two or three at most on a weekend night. There's one ladyboy bar, which is very small with exorbitantly priced drinks, in all of Itaewon, with hardly a customer (at least that's what I was told ). So the "excess soy in the diet" theory doesn't seem to hold up, at least in my experience.

[Pinot]

Soy? That's silly.

It's all about the money. What can you make as a ladyboy vs. what you can make not being a ladyboy. And it's easy, pleasurable work, for some. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[Crazy chef 1]

Demand and supply...

[chingmai331]

Here's some info on soy and estrogen

http://healthyeating.sfgate.com/eating-soy-increase-estrogen-production-2870.html

make your own decision.

[JakeSully]

Stupid question..

1. Why are there so many hijras in India?

2. Why are there so many transsexuals in Brazil?

3. Why are there so little in the US? - They are murdered.. that's why.

Thailand, India, Brazil have tolerant cultures where there is intermixing of ideals.. and Thailand has Issan (lao) culture intermixing.

[Toknarok]

Living here in Isaan (Buriram) I see them all the time. In the small village where I live (155 houses) there are at least three.

[otherstuff1957]

IMHO this is the real key to the number of kathoeys in Thailand: The historian Peter Jackson has argued that pre-existing Thai notions of gender interacted with Buddhist thought in a way that uniquely conflated gayness with transness; for many years gay men were simply understood as having women’s desires, and often referred to as kathoey too.

People tend to act according to their cultural expectations. In the US, for instance, gay men are expected to be neat, fussy and well dressed. Once men realize that they are gay, many of them will subconsciously act and dress according to their culture's expectations. I suspect that the same is true in Thailand. Gay men are expected to be feminine, sometimes to the point of looking like, dressing like or surgically becoming a woman.

So, in the west gay men are expected to be men who just have sex with other men, but in Thailand gay men are expected to become women and both groups tend to follow those expectations.

[daoyai]

TVF reading comprehension at it's typical low level, the article states that the percentage of trans gender males in T-land is average to other locations ..but as they are more accepted they are more public. Also stated is that the vast majority are not in the sex trade.

[simon43]

It's all about the money. What can you make as a ladyboy vs. what you can make not being a ladyboy. And it's easy, pleasurable work, for some.

Yes I agree. when I visit the beauty shop to buy my hair tonic, the ladyboy sales assistant always looks happy.

In case some posters don't get my sarcasm, some TV posters have fallen into the same old trap of thinking that ladyboys work in bars and nothing else.

IMHO - most hold down 'normal' jobs or study at college. Working in a ladyboy bar is NOT the norm

Edited August 3, 2015 by simon43

[Bakseeda]

Living here in Isaan (Buriram) I see them all the time. In the small village where I live (155 houses) there are at least three.

Which one is your favourite..?

[Berkshire]

Stupid question..

1. Why are there so many hijras in India?

2. Why are there so many transsexuals in Brazil?

3. Why are there so little in the US? - They are murdered.. that's why.

Thailand, India, Brazil have tolerant cultures where there is intermixing of ideals.. and Thailand has Issan (lao) culture intermixing.

That's right. The fact is, there are just as many gays, transgenders, lesbians, etc., in almost any other country in the world. But they're persecuted elsewhere--sometimes harshly--but not so much in Thailand. That's one of the things I love about Thailand, their tolerance and live-and-let-live attitude. It's so obvious an answer that I can't believe people are constantly trying to come up with ridiculous explanations.

Even in my home country of the USA, in the year 2015, many gays are still in the closet for fear of discrimination or worse. If America ever became completely open to homosexuals and devoid of gay hatred, we'd find out how many gays we really have. Unfortunately, it won't happen in my lifetime.

[opalred]

i am still green as i grew up in nz and only had my pet sheep as

i am a bit green as grew up in nz and only had a pet sheep as my friend

and new to me if i meet one do they give or take

my friend

do they give or take?

[Ghostnigel]

I attribute it to so much soy in the Thai diet which mutates and feminizes male chromosomes.

And more recently, the huge amount of hormones injected into the chickens has also messed up male chromosomes.

That, in my opinion, is why there are so many ladyboys. And I stand by it.

If you get out of the cities most of the chicken they eat is raised in the village without any hormones or any kind of drugs at all. There is a very high percentage of lady boys here in the rural areas...and I will bet a good many f them in the city and other sex tourist come from rural Thailand, just like many of the bar girls do.

Can you please explain how any diet can mutate chromosomes?

Is this new science or just something you came up with?

I believe DNA and chromosomes are established before birth and can't be altered after birth.

The best theory to date is that a hormone unbalance in the mothers womb can cause a male foetus to develop a female brain and visa versa for the female foetus. This theory is based on the level of Testosterone in the early development of the foetus. Too much and the female foetus develops a male brain and too little and a male foetus will develop a female brain. This hasn't been proven yet but it does make sense.

Makes sense? That was a similar theory given about gays, are LB's just gays in drag?

[green job]

i am still green as i grew up in nz and only had my pet sheep as

i am a bit green as grew up in nz and only had a pet sheep as my friend

and new to me if i meet one do they give or take

my friend

do they give or take?

Only one!! my mate in Wales was married to four

[hellohello123]

Years ago when i was a student. There was a thai exchange student and we got to know eachtoehr and one day i asked her . Why so many ladyboys in thailand?

To which she replied "because its trendy"

I rmemebr being shocked and thinking to myself "<deleted>. I dont care how trendy it is. Im not attracted to men. Im just not going to change sides because its trendy"

Maybe it is line of thinkijng that we non thai people dont understand!

[hellohello123]

This is a completely personal belief that has no scientific evidence. But whenever i listen to a thai male speak thai. To me it comes across as quite feminine. The sounds are soft and there are no firm sounds.

Ive spoken a few thai words and i feel quite 'feminine' speaking them.

Maybe remotely the language's sounds contributing to the higher then usual ladyboy/gay phenemon

[Thongkorn]

I think becasue daddys nut sack over heats, in the midday sun, Mammy wants a girl, they get a boy then dress him in a frock and call him gloria, he grows up confused, Just my thinking,

[starky]

I don't have a dog in this fight but what saddens me is that I think I am becoming immune to the hate filled, bigoted rubbish that gets spouted on TV every day. Lets look at what some of the learned scholars have thrown up. They are ladyboys because.... hormone imbalance, plastic, chemicals, pesticides, soy milk and my favourite and probably the stupidest comment ever made about katoeys "they do it for the money". Yes because some young boy in Isaan wakes up and thinks I know, I will identify with the opposite gender and start dressing and living like a woman, maybe undergo a couple of (countless?) painful surgeries to alter my body, take hormones daily and then prostitute myself to make a few extra baht because apparently " it's easy, pleasurable work" yeah right. We should turn the clock back 70 years for some of you, so you can go back to wearing white hoods and burning crosses. These are probably the same mental giants that think people in the LGBT community "choose" to be gay or bi, because life isn't hard enough with out "choosing" to expose yourself to ridicule, bigotry, prejudice, violence and possibly the non-acceptance of who you are by friends, family and society in general. You need to get your own house in order before you start judging others. If people aren't hurting themselves or anyone else, are happy and living life who really cares what their colour, religion or sexual orientation ? For <deleted> sake live and let live I say. Rant over