Are Teachers Underpaid?

[Loaded]

2 posts from another thread:

Loaded

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Why do so many foreigners believe they are worth 3 or 4 times the salary of Thai teachers who do the same job?

OK, relative to the west wages are low. There are real economic reasons for this: it's a bloody poor country. Even the Thais who we think must be loaded because they drive good cars have them on credit and return home to homes valued less than the car outside. There are exceptions, but most of them won't be coming back to Thailand for a while!

The salaries in Thailand are low. You know this before you come here. Why come here and then complain? The salaries in Japan are high, we all had a choice.

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IJWT

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Some home truths:

1. Anyone who realises how much money the brigands who own/profit from most schools here make will quickly abandon the idea that Thailand (or Thai schools, anyway) is "poor." The salaries are poor because of the popularity of life here and the perception that the country is poor. If you don't understand what I mean, look at an EP program sometime with 1000 students or so paying 50-100K/term/head yet paying their two dozen or so foreign teachers 30-45K a month. An even better scam is a school charging, say, 1000B/student/month for one English lesson a week with the native speaker (I've heard of charges like this from Thai parents)- if a whole school of 1000 participates (and they're packed into, say, 20 classes of 50 students each) the program administrator gets 1,000,000B per month, losing a paltry 30-35K to the TEFL teacher.

To a lesser extent I have to agree with Fisher that the relative popularity of life here (compared to many other destinations) drives down salaries. But they are already artificially low in the region- even Vietnam, not a country well known for its market economics, pays more.

2. Japan does not have high salaries, except in absolute terms. A typical TEFLer in Japan earns a third or less what a "real" Japanese teacher does. In addition, expenses are much higher, on the order of 3-4x for most items (rent, transportation) and up to 10-15x for certain types of items (fruit, food, etc.). In effect, a TEFLer in Japan is a blue-collar worker, unless he hustles pretty darn hard and lives in very basic style.

3. We are worth more than the Thai teachers in teaching our native language using our native language by far. Anyone who's worked with a lot of Thai teachers knows how ineffective so many of them are even in communicating by themselves, much less transmitting the language to the students. In another sense, economically while there is a demand for foreign teachers we are more valuable by simple law of supply and demand. This is how the market works. If we were getting paid what Thais do, we wouldn't be here. We are here because we don't.

Samui-Spen, life in Thailand *is* confusing. That's one of the challenges. There aren't any guarantees, and to be perfectly honest, this is not a very good time to be starting a teaching career here no matter what your qualifications are.

"Steven"

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[Ijustwannateach]

And in the blue corner....

[Loaded]

Sure, EP students generate a lot of cash for a school, but they are still the minority within schools - certainly in CM. And, so what, in any business the owner or shareholders have risked their capital to build their business; if it's successful, why shouldn't they reap the rewards. Certainly, if there's debt, it falls on their shoulders.

There's nothing in a farang teacher's contract that mentions profit sharing. teachers are a commodity and their salaries depend on what the market (schools) can afford and is prepared to pay.

OK, as native speakers when we teach TEFL it's difficult for Thai teachers to match us, but this doesn't apply to subject teaching. Are we really worth 3 times more than a Thai science teacher?

[Loaded]

Not a boxing match Steven. I just want to explore why so many teachers feel they're underpaid and schools exploit them.

Edited September 27, 2006 by Loaded

[Ijustwannateach]

You need to explain what you mean by "worth." And it's going to be impossible to prove either side of this argument, but I guess that's what makes long threads possible...

You've shifted, I see, to science. Is that a concession that English teachers really are worth more than their Thai counterparts? Even in science one could argue that recent grads from U.S. universities might be exposed to more recent information/techniques/equipment than those in Thailand- but let's give your argument the biggest advantage we can.

Let's take math, for instance- a fairly objective discipline in which it can be argued that there are few linguistic or national advantages to being from one country or another- the math isn't going be different, only maybe the curriculum and the style of teaching.

If by "worth," you mean that there is an ability to impart greater amounts of absolute mathematical knowledge to students, the case is questionable. A truly well-educated and experienced Thai math teacher is pretty sharp. He's had years to figure out how to slog through the syllabus- and he can do it in the students' own language.

If by "worth," you mean that there is an ability to impart the ability to *speak* about such absolute mathematical knowledge in a second language, the case is pretty strong. Kids aren't going to get to talk about math in English with a Thai math teacher. For some of them, that ability is going to be pretty important in the future. If you place a value on that ability, coupled with the low number of English-speaking math teachers in the market who can handle the curriculum, we're worth a lot.

If by "worth," you mean that there is a greater likelihood that the foreign teacher is well-educated, the case is also questionable. Just as in any population, there are great Thai teachers and awful ones in just about every subject. I don't have any accurate information proving that some, most, or all of them are one way or the other. I have seen good and bad examples. Similarly, I have seen foreign teachers all across the board. So it would be hard to defend this point.

If by "worth," you mean that the foreign teacher is more likely to teach in a different style (more student centered, more project-based, more lab-oriented, etc.) than the Thai teachers, the case gets better- it is an almost universal remark of foreign teachers observing Thai teachers that their pedagogical style is old-fashioned and ubiquitous. This style may be effective in some areas, or not- but you're likely to get a different style if you hire a foreigner.

There's no way to prove any of these things absolutely. I'd say the strongest point is made in case #2- in a world of growing internationalization, it's the students who can move among various countries who will have the biggest advantages.

"Steven"

[PeaceBlondie]

Loaded, the first part of your statements, which I chose not to respond to originally, was false in my experience. In last full year of teaching, I was paid 287,500 baht for one full school year, and had to pay about 87,502 baht for visas. And, I was way, way too illegal. My Thai counterparts made from 216,000 to 396,000 baht per year, and they were legal. In other words, they made more than I did.

We cannot compare Thai teachers to farang teachers. The only similarity is that they are both homo sapiens, teaching in Thailand. Nothing else is the same; nothing of significance

[Loaded]

good points.

I would agree with you that a farang 'trained' teacher may have a better understanding of modern teaching techniques, but many farang teachers at universities are untrained ie no post graduate teacher training except possibly a TEFL qualification. Therefore, as subject teachers they are in general not better prepared for the classroom than their Thai counterparts. Thai unis are full of farangs with only a degree teaching a subject related to their degree studies that they may have earned 20 or 30 years ago.

PB's experience is fairly rare from my experience. Most private schools pay wp costs and pay farang more.

I don't think there's a definite answer to this, and everyone's experiences/opinions are different, just want to provoke a little thought in the staffroom.

[Gerontion]

Loaded, the first part of your statements, which I chose not to respond to originally, was false in my experience. In last full year of teaching, I was paid 287,500 baht for one full school year, and had to pay about 87,502 baht for visas. And, I was way, way too illegal. My Thai counterparts made from 216,000 to 396,000 baht per year, and they were legal. In other words, they made more than I did.

Which may or may not be true but is certainly not the norm. However, if it is true that

[flaming of moderators not permitted - IJWT]

[PeaceBlondie]

Loaded, the first part of your statements, which I chose not to respond to originally, was false in my experience. In last full year of teaching, I was paid 287,500 baht for one full school year, and had to pay about 87,502 baht for visas. And, I was way, way too illegal. My Thai counterparts made from 216,000 to 396,000 baht per year, and they were legal. In other words, they made more than I did.

Which may or may not be true but is certainly not the norm. However, if it is true that

flaming mods not permitted - IJWT

I started with the issue at point, showing the difficulty of trying to compare Thai and farang teachers as if they were somehow comparable.

I agree that my circumstance is not the norm. But it is certainly true. Now, the junior ajarns at my matayom schools were very few, because the age demography of Thai teachers is very abnormal throughout Thailand. At least where I was, most of them were ladies aged between 35 and 55, and since they had uni degrees, they did not come from lower class backgrounds. I never heard any of them say they earned less than 18,000 every month. None of them usually left the province, and only a handful had ever gone abroad. They had no concept of the travails of a farang to get visas, work permits, teachers license, trips to see sick family, etc. They would never go two months without seeing a blood relative. They are part of a social milieu, into which they fit. They were Thai citizens for whom English was a foreign language, sometimes painfully so. Thai matayom teachers don't think or teach the way farang do. The Thai English teachers usually teach - speak - 50% of class time, and 75% of that TTT is in Thai (call it TTTT). I could go on and on.

We're all homo sapiens, teaching in Thailand. That's about it.

[TerryLH]

PB

"and had to pay about 87,502 baht for visas."

Over the course of a year, by your posted numbers, you were paying about 30% of your salary, each month, for visas?

I'm dumbfounded.

[Ijustwannateach]

I have already stated that statements of the type, "all/most teachers are...." with a negative object will be interpreted as defamatory and inflammatory. I now also state that statements of the type, "all/most posters on this/other teaching forums" followed with a negative object will be interpreted as defamatory and inflammatory. Posters who make such statements will have their posts deleted in their entirety, and if repeat attempts to defame our posters are made in this way, warnings and suspensions will quickly follow.

Have a nice day.

"Steven"

[Jersey_UK]

On one level the answer to the question "Are Teachers Underpaid?" is simply..........no.

Why? because they are paid whatever "the going rate is", as proved by BOTH parties agreeing to the transaction.

In practice the "going rate" is artificially reduced because of the numbers of Farang who want to be in Thailand for purposes "other than" purely the joy of teaching English. (I make no comment about what these reasons may be), the evidence? Well IMO someone (unless they had another source of "real" income) would have to be pretty dumb to think that spending a long term CAREER teaching English in Thailand will not result in them having a sh#tty lifestyle and eventual retirement in COMPARISON with what the same person could do back in Farangland. Therefore because of the artificially lowered "going rate" it can only attract the transients (even if for years at a time), or IMO the terminally stupid, or the very very small category of those with outside income who do the job as a little more than a hobby - and in all honesty I cannot see most of these sticking with the job for many years........after all, why work when you don't HAVE to, especially for what is, in western terms, peanuts. I am not only talking here of those on B40k a month, but also those on that a week.

I would prefer the question to be "Does the approach that Thailand utilises for teaching English work for BOTH cost and results"......and IMO the answer is clearly............no!

The proof is that if the current model (of employing large numbers of native Farang speakers) was succesful then by now they surely would have a much larger pool of Native Thais who could teach English to the same level as a Native (!) Farang. Whilst of course many folk will say "The Thai's prefer Farang for teaching English", IMO this IS true, but only partly because of their "attutudes" (I say no more ), but mainly because they KNOW that on average Native Thai teachers of English are just not good enough (even in Thailand the rule of "Those who can etc" IS also true ). The Thais are in general NOT dumb enough to just throw away good money to a Farang, when a local cheaper alternative is available. English teaching is the only area I can think of (offhand) where their is this preference for a Farang. IME it is usually quite the reverse of that for "cultural reasons" (I say no more ).

In general Farangs are employed as Teachers because even a cr#p teacher who knows his subject IS better even than a good teacher, who doesn't know his subject.

(MODS, this is NOT meant to be having a "go" at Teachers (Farang or Thai), I do not have any axe to grind - please feel free to edit anything or delete the full post if I have crossed any "Lines" - I hope I haven't, but.........)

Edited September 27, 2006 by Jersey_UK

[PeaceBlondie]

Jersey UK, offhand I see nothing in your post to delete or edit. Although, I must say that, for someone who kept saying ("I say no more " ), you then went on to say something else, and no more.

I've been challenged (by the parts deleted) to consider whether my remarks in post #9 are racist. No, they're not. They're based on 3.5 semesters of teaching full time every school day, observing other teachers, having lunch with them, talking together. Yes, some had been abroad; most had not, and many seldom leave the province of their birth, except to earn bachelor and master degrees.

TerryLH is dumbfounded that I spent so much; I'm found dumb. In my first two months in Thailand, I spent 28K baht in air fares to get here, 41K for a TEFL school, two months' lodging and deposit for two months ahead (35K), a new bike to commute 35km each way (64K baht), before receiving my first, partial paycheck. No pay for October, March, April, or half of May (per contract). I wasn't found dumb; I was foolish or stupid. But I have this old habit of being willing to work for the government at half what other people earn, and I had a pension. And, my home was 11 time zones away. I researched for a year, and could find no friendly consulate closer than Perth, and wanted to see my family.

As TerryLH alludes, but says no more , many TEFLers come to Thailand for personal reasons other than to make a lifelong professional career of it.

But, I digress. At least in their first year or two, how much does the average TEFLer make - maybe 28K or 32K per month, not all months? And does he or she have higher expenses than a Thai teacher? Does the farang speak better conversational English? Is it once again not a comparison of better or worse, but just very different and incomparable?

[otherstuff1957]

Acually, I think that THAI teachers are grossly underpaid! I think that the pay scale for Thai teachers reflects the true feeling that the Thai people have towards education.

[Ijustwannateach]

Jersey, nothing to delete by my way of thinking. But if you think 40K a week (in Thailand!) is peanuts, you move in much richer spheres than I do (or that even most contemporaries my age do) and I think your perspective is so far off the norm it threatens to discredit itself.

[Ijustwannateach]

But I will reply more to the second half of your thoughts- it is far too soon (and there were far too few teachers) to say that English teaching under the current model has "failed." Moreover, there is no way to tell how many of the "successful" cases have simply gone to other countries and gotten the international jobs of their dreams, as seems to be the habit of most students who speak very good English that I have known. By your own arguments it would not be their first choice to become teachers, correct?

"Steven"

[Loaded]

TEFL teaching here hasn't failed. Look at Japan, Taiwan or S. Korea, I've never met a national from any of those countries with the fluency most non-native speaking europeans possess. Yesterday in the Bangkok Post there was an article about how Thailand is now producing the best IELTS results of any asian country.

Maybe the lack of success in asia is cultural as well as L1 differences. Most European languages have a similar Latin-based structure to English but in asia there's rarely a direct translation match from their particular language.

Back to the OP:

Farang teachers often earn as much as a Thai Court Judge - crazy!!! so why are we overpaid???

[Thaiboxer]

I would agree that teachers are vastly underpaid; and this goes for ANY teacher who teaches kindergarten through high school. The entire world is seeing a shortage of teachers and for good reasons:

1.) Teaching grade schoolers is a terrible job for the most part; kids these days have more say than their teachers (making the teachers powerless) and they have little if any respect for them.

2.) The salaries are low and the benefits are a joke compared to people working in other jobs.

3.) School administrators in private schools will side with the parents/students since that is their source of income.

For these reasons, I chose to make the switch from teaching kids to teaching adults. This took care of the first problem I mentioned and the one I feel is the biggest. The salary/benefits are still a joke but I can live with that as it's enough to provide us with a decent lifestyle.

I feel sorry for the Thai teachers in terms of salaries but let's face it: They'll ALWAYS have the benefit when it comes to political clout and they usually have some sort of long term savings plan. As for us farangs, we just have to put away as much as we can so we won't be working until the day we die.

[Ijustwannateach]

Loaded, you could make a long list of occupations in Thailand which are paid less than foreign teachers. That doesn't make it a sensible comparison. In the end, it's market forces. I wouldn't be here teaching if it was as poorly paid as teaching is back home, or as poorly paid here as teaching is for locals. As I posted before, in certain cases we *are* worth it, as we provide services locals can't.

"Steven"

[Loaded]

Loaded, you could make a long list of occupations in Thailand which are paid less than foreign teachers. That doesn't make it a sensible comparison. In the end, it's market forces. I wouldn't be here teaching if it was as poorly paid as teaching is back home, or as poorly paid here as teaching is for locals. As I posted before, in certain cases we *are* worth it, as we provide services locals can't.

"Steven"

Market forces I understand, and I agree we are paid what the market feels is our worth. By 'worth' I mean skills, ability, experience and qualifications to achieve the objective of educating Thai students.

BUT many people on this forum, and others, comment that their 'worth' is valued more than the market here presently pays them. ie underpaid Why?

I'll try to paraphrase some comments I've heard/read from farang teachers:

"If we get rid of the backpackers, salaries will rise." Why, if the market now pays teachers their market 'worth'?

"I earn 1000 baht/hour for this special course I teach, so that must be my benchmark 'worth'." In any market there are localized distortions that do not reflect normal market conditions. Therefore, a well-paid couple of hours at the weekend does not reflect a teacher's general 'worth'.

"Thais have all those saving plan things and pensions" If you're from the UK, you'll receive a pension when you reach retirement age regardless of the fact you haven't contributed to it by paying national insurance, or been resident in the UK for the last 40 years. Also, if you fall ill, you're only a 9 hour journey from the NHS - some of the best medical services in the world and it's FREE. I don't think Thais working for a few years in the UK would be entitled to a state pension despite paying UK taxes.

[PeaceBlondie]

Let me give a short answer (whom, I?).

Assume that the market forces really operate in a classical, capitalist manner (which they don't) for supply, demand, and price. Then anybody who works for wage X is neither underpaid nor overpaid, by definition.

Or is the question really asking, are farang TEFLers paid what they're worth? Again, they're worth whatever the market says.

If we ask "Are Thai teachers underpaid or overpaid?" The answer has to be "No; market forces and different market." Or, irrelevant, incomparable, or none of our business.

If an American spends even 20 years overseas as a TEFLer, there would be no Social Security pension waiting for them. And a Canadian just got airlifted back home for medical (other thread on TVisa) - cost, C$58,000 to get where he has free NHS. The USA doesn't have NHS.

[Loaded]

If an American spends even 20 years overseas as a TEFLer, there would be no Social Security pension waiting for them. The USA doesn't have NHS.

Because America's wealth is spent killing foreigners.

[PeaceBlondie]

Agreed.

[paully]

I'll try to paraphrase some comments I've heard/read from farang teachers:

"If we get rid of the backpackers, salaries will rise." Why, if the market now pays teachers their market 'worth'?

"I earn 1000 baht/hour for this special course I teach, so that must be my benchmark 'worth'." In any market there are localized distortions that do not reflect normal market conditions. Therefore, a well-paid couple of hours at the weekend does not reflect a teacher's general 'worth'.

"Thais have all those saving plan things and pensions" If you're from the UK, you'll receive a pension when you reach retirement age regardless of the fact you haven't contributed to it by paying national insurance, or been resident in the UK for the last 40 years. Also, if you fall ill, you're only a 9 hour journey from the NHS - some of the best medical services in the world and it's FREE. I don't think Thais working for a few years in the UK would be entitled to a state pension despite paying UK taxes.

I wouldn't count too much on receiving a nice state pension from the UK in future years, it's not the benefit it used to be. Firstly, there are far too many retirees coming up to retirement in the next 15-20 years for the government to be able to pay them all - let alone keep the level with the rise in the retail price index - without major tax increases (they've got to pay all those nice politicians' and civil servants' and teachers' pensions too). Secondly, if you're in Thailand, because of the lack of a reciprocal treaty, you will miss out on annual pension increases meaning that the value of your pension falls. Thirdly, if you don't keep up your National Insurance payments, you'll only be entitled to the lowest state pension. All in all, the British State Pension in a few years'll probably be about as valuable, in real terms, as the basic Thai pension which they've recently commenced via the Social Security system, which entitles Thai workers to a basic health cover at certain named hospitals.

Again the NHS isn't the automatic, cradle-to-grave, total, universal "free" cover that it used to be. If you spend several years living abroad, you're increasingly likely to find that you won't automatically qualify for free treatment for more expensive conditions - hospitals will quiz you about your address/addresses if it appears you are resident abroad, and you'll also, most likely have a waiting list for operations rather than just fall off the plane and be instantly taken care of. Also, don't get old in the UK without savings. Even with savings, the local authority can force you to pay up or sell your property to pay for old-age care. At 2,000 pounds or more a month, your savings will be soon eaten up by the care home.

By contrast, Thai workers have several advantages over farang in Thailand. They can qualify easily - frankly, much too easily - for loans (including mortgages) and credit cards, which Thai banks would never give to a foreigner without stringent conditions being attached. They get more protection under labour laws in respect to severance payments, for example, which cut in after you have worked for over 1 year continuously with the same employer (most farang teachers have to agree to one-year temporary contracts even with the same employer). They have the right to stay in the country without fulfilling increasingly complex and uncertain visa/work permit requirements. They are physically, as well as emotionally, close to their families which provide them with a whole support network, whilst the farang has to fend for himself.

[TerryLH]

PB

Glad to hear there were extenuating circumstances for the cost of the visas for one year.

Paully said:

"probably be about as valuable, in real terms, as the basic Thai pension which they've recently commenced via the Social Security system, which entitles Thai workers to a basic health cover at certain named hospitals."

In my experience Thai Soc Security does a lot more than provide a basic coverage. I use it extensively, every month, and find the coverage very good. The hospital I currently use has specialists on call - as needed.

You're right about having to use a specific hospital. In the province I'm at now I was given a choice of nine hospitals to choose from. If you aren't happy with the one you've been assigned, you can have it changed in January.

If you stop working you still get benefits for an additional 6 months after discontinueing payments. If not working, and you want to stay in the system, you can pay 432 baht a month to keep your coverage.

Terry

[Ijustwannateach]

BUT many people on this forum, and others, comment that their 'worth' is valued more than the market here presently pays them. ie underpaid Why?

Still a good question. We've gone over this old chestnut on other forums before, so why not here?

I'll try to paraphrase some comments I've heard/read from farang teachers:

"If we get rid of the backpackers, salaries will rise." Why, if the market now pays teachers their market 'worth'?

The problem (from the somewhat more qualified teachers' points of view) is that the market price for many teachers (especially TEFL teachers) is more of a mix of their values and the backpackers' values. In theory, to give the students better quality, one could get rid of the bottom sector of teachers- however one wants to define that- which would raise salaries by market forces (lower supply of those perceived to be "teachers.") Enforcing standards of qualifications would do the same thing. The real question is where to draw the line. Personally, I'd suggest requiring a TEFL for TEFL, and a college degree for anything else.

One could argue as follows: "Since the Thais know what they want, and backpackers are good enough for them, why argue for increased standards and restrictions?" This is another thread in itself, but briefly: they are more transient, less qualified, and often not even native speakers. Their behavior and their teaching skill frequently tarnishes the reputation of the rest of us and certainly lowers our salaries. More cynically, their presence is less a matter of general Thai teacher "satisfaction" with the backpackers than a matter (typically) of low-cost kickbacks for Thai school administrators.

So, briefly, the market price of more dedicated and less transient teachers is indeed higher than that of us plus the "travellers."

"I earn 1000 baht/hour for this special course I teach, so that must be my benchmark 'worth'." In any market there are localized distortions that do not reflect normal market conditions. Therefore, a well-paid couple of hours at the weekend does not reflect a teacher's general 'worth'.

Kind of a straw man, don't you think? No sensible person would believe that part-time rates should be the same as full-time- they're higher *because* they're part-time, less reliable, don't give paperwork, etc., etc.

However, those who do piecemeal work and don't have to worry about visas otherwise *do* make a lot more money than us full-time full-timers... which adds to the argument that visas and WPs are one way to keep us down and give school administrators more of the profit that we'd otherwise be earning (this is a theory expounded to me by a very rich Thai businessman, incidentally).

"Thais have all those saving plan things and pensions" If you're from the UK, you'll receive a pension when you reach retirement age regardless of the fact you haven't contributed to it by paying national insurance, or been resident in the UK for the last 40 years. Also, if you fall ill, you're only a 9 hour journey from the NHS - some of the best medical services in the world and it's FREE. I don't think Thais working for a few years in the UK would be entitled to a state pension despite paying UK taxes.

Someone else has already addressed the NHS issue. In any case, if you are fully legal in Thailand you *do* qualify for some minor benefits, as another poster mentioned. However, there is an argument that aside from other market forces, we lack the social support systems of Thais and need a higher salary to compensate- no free house to live in with relatives, no rich patrons to borrow money from in an emergency, no network of relatives to depend on in times of need, etc., etc. Not that most other countries would provide those things- but then in many English-speaking countries social insurance is often institutionalised as a part of the employee-employer contract.

All very good points for discussion so far!

"Steven"

[endure]

"Thais have all those saving plan things and pensions" If you're from the UK, you'll receive a pension when you reach retirement age regardless of the fact you haven't contributed to it by paying national insurance, or been resident in the UK for the last 40 years. Also, if you fall ill, you're only a 9 hour journey from the NHS - some of the best medical services in the world and it's FREE. I don't think Thais working for a few years in the UK would be entitled to a state pension despite paying UK taxes.

Someone else has already addressed the NHS issue. In any case, if you are fully legal in Thailand you *do* qualify for some minor benefits, as another poster mentioned. However, there is an argument that aside from other market forces, we lack the social support systems of Thais and need a higher salary to compensate- no free house to live in with relatives, no rich patrons to borrow money from in an emergency, no network of relatives to depend on in times of need, etc., etc. Not that most other countries would provide those things- but then in many English-speaking countries social insurance is often institutionalised as a part of the employee-employer contract.

All very good points for discussion so far!

"Steven"

Just a quick note regarding UK pensions. In order to qualify for any UK pension at all you must have made 11 years worth of National Insurance contributions. That will give you 25% of the present UK pension. Your pension will then increase pro rata with the number of years (should that be apostrophised?) contributions up to a maximum of 44 years when you will receive the full pension. There is talk of the UK government dropping the requirement to a maximum of 30 years contributions but that isn't yet law.

[Jersey_UK]

But if you think 40K a week (in Thailand!) is peanuts, you move in much richer spheres than I do (or that even most contemporaries my age do) and I think your perspective is so far off the norm it threatens to discredit itself.

Just had a re-read of what I said:-

"especially for what is, in western terms, peanuts. I am not only talking here of those on B40k a month, but also those on that a week".

I am not trying to split hairs or disagree - I can see that what I said was not especially clear I will try (!) and clarify.

What I was trying to say that B40k a month is peanuts in Thailand "in COMPARISON with what the same person could do back in Farangland".

I do realise that B40k week is good money IN Thailand, even for a Farang. But IMO, long term this sum is only good money for a Thai whose costs and more importantly future costs are in Baht, and based in (restricted to??) Thailand. If someone is capable of earning that sum as a Teacher in Thailand (Which I believe can or pretty much can be done by some, albeit those with more bits of paper than Andrex at "regular University" level rather than with a CSE in woodwork at "bucket shop English school") then I would be very very surprised if they were not capable of earning well above average money in Farangland (at least the civilised parts!).

I do sometimes have a habit of overstating in an attempt clarity , which is not always succesful and perhaps, in retrospect, I should have replaced the word "dumb" with something along the lines of "inadvisable for the reasons of long term financial security" Probably also "peanuts" should have read "considerably less than achievable or desirable"...........

Of course I am perhaps a bit more "Money and future conscious" than some / than is a good thing (??!) and I do appreciate their IS more to life than saving pennies towards an old age that may never come, but nothing quite like a reformed sinner!...........especially one who spent half of his 30's in Thailand, not always entirely sober. or "good". But that is for another thread

I guess my views are coloured from the Farang folk I have met who have tended towards being in the category of "staying in Thailand at any cost", rather than those who worried about what to wear at the next Ambassadors cocktail party

Anyway, each to their own! and I do like to understand from other peoples experiances and occassionaly, very occassionaly, I do learn from them

[Ijustwannateach]

^What you say is basically true. But if one is happy with the higher-salary-to-cost-of-living here in Thailand- and yes, it is possible to make that much teaching, with some qualifications and lot of work (not there yet myself but I can dream)- why is it inherently a bad decision to choose to live here rather than in a home country where, even with a similarly higher-salary-to-cost-of-living for that country, the quality of life (by one's own standards) will be lower?

One could always argue that the best road is to work at home, get a pension or other reliable permanent income, and then come here to retire. But I have been made only too aware recently that one cannot take one's old age entirely for granted. If you wait until you are old to live in the way you wish, you may never reach the age that delivers that dream.

"Steven"

P.S. I dress pretty casually for embassy receptions- rude of me, I know...

[johnnyk]

"If we get rid of the backpackers, salaries will rise." Why, if the market now pays teachers their market 'worth'?

Simple. They dilute the market.

Think of it as inflation/oversupply.

Print too much money and the money devalues, i.e too much money chasing the amount of goods for sale. If a Big Mac costs $1 in country A and $5 in country B it simply means country B's $ is worth less, the Big Mac is the same Big Mac in both countries.

Samesame too many people available for the amount of work drives down their value.

Nothing to do with their own self-opinion or intrinsic worth (qualifications etc.), its supply and demand.

Remove the oversupply of falangs and bargaining power is increased for those who are qualified/experienced/sober.

Teaching salaries are relatively high in Japan. Why? For one thing you pretty well have to have a degree, so right away the talent pool is narrowed. Of course the Japanese are willing to pay decently to get decent teachers. Thailand isn't willing to do this.

It knows it is a country with pulling power unlike other places which are far less pleasant to live in.