Residing spirits; Merit for Deceased: Why when rebirth should be a goal?

[connda]

Interesting thought as I exited samadhi this evening.

My wife this morning talked at length about the deceased relatives that she was going to offer food/merit to tomorrow on Wan Pra. Very animistic. But then again, a number of Pali chants specifically offer merit to, well, deceased relatives.

This is where I like thinking, The Book of The Dead (not Theravada tradition - Tibetan), outline the stages of death, the entry into the Bardo, and the eventual rebirth of those who have passed away. So why is there such an emphasis on merit giving to deceased relatives that seems to be supported in the Theravada Buddhist tradition?
Unlike my wife, when I offer merit to the deceased, I also add the caveat, "If you still reside in this plane of existence, then may this merit allow you to see the path to rebirth in the next life. Let go, do not dwell, do not cling, but move on to a new life where you may find the cessation of suffering." I see merit, especially the sharing of merit gained though samadhi, as a way of providing the power to those who are "stuck" to clearly see through the ignorance of clinging to what once was, and to let go and pass on, really pass on, to rebirth. But I believe I'm a real minority, for what I see are Thai Buddhist placating the spirits of their relative and others who may continue to dwell around them and their homes, businesses, and communities, not to help move them to a higher realm of existence and rebirth, but to make them happy clinging to the past, to this existence where their physical body has passed away, but the disembodied "knower' who is still in the delusional grip of conditioned existence remains anchored to in this plane of existence where they really do not belong. Why are they not taught to use merit to invite and move this entities onto the path of rebirth?

Edited October 4, 2015 by connda

[DogNo1]

Thai Buddhism is a syncretic religion with elements of Hinduism, animism and local beliefs. Rebirth in Therevada Buddhism means a loss of awareness and the consequent suffering, hence rebirth into the world of suffering. Read Ajahn Cha. Rebirth has nothing to do with physical death. Honoring ancestors is a relic of Confucianism and is practiced in many Asian countries influenced by his teachings. There is a lot of tedious dogma and mumbo-jumbo which is not part of Buddha's teachings. It keeps the mind very busy and is antithetical to enlightment; however, people are entitled to their beliefs what ever they may be.

[connda]

Thai Buddhism is a syncretic religion with elements of Hinduism, animism and local beliefs. Rebirth in Therevada Buddhism means a loss of awareness and the consequent suffering, hence rebirth into the world of suffering. Read Ajahn Cha. Rebirth has nothing to do with physical death. Honoring ancestors is a relic of Confucianism and is practiced in many Asian countries influenced by his teachings. There is a lot of tedious dogma and mumbo-jumbo which is not part of Buddha's teachings. It keeps the mind very busy and is antithetical to enlightment; however, people are entitled to their beliefs what ever they may be.

I am student of Ajahn Chah in the sense of following his teachings. He wasn't much for Buddhist dogma. Theravada Buddhism within the Forest Tradition is not, from my perspective, a syncretic religion. Thai Buddhism for the masses: Different story, and very much a syncretic religion. Rebirth? I'll have to go back to review and see what I missed in his Dharma Talks. Rebirth, or for that matter, the passing away and then the arising of phenomena is in fact 'rebirth'. In meditation it's the moment to moment death/rebirth of the perceived. But in the terms of physical death.....? I've had an NDE when I was a teenager. Didn't read the Book of the Dead until decades later, but in that book was the sequence of phenomena that I experienced, in reverse, as I regained consciousness. Dogma? Nope. Not that. For me it was, "Yeah, been there."

Anyway, Buddhism for me is pretty simple: Sila, Samadhi, Panna. I don't consider Buddhism a religion, but a practical application that if practiced, yields specific results that are verifiable by insight. You experience and understand, or you don't. If you don't, it all looks like Hocus-Pocus, Mumbo-Jumbo, Ju Ju Magik nonsense.

However, a certain times, like this, I allow myself the liberty of going for the intellectual understanding of the beliefs of others; their dogma; their Mythos. It doesn't mean I buy into it. It's just extending empathy; compassion.

Edited October 5, 2015 by connda

[connda]

Thai Buddhism is a syncretic religion with elements of Hinduism, animism and local beliefs. Rebirth in Therevada Buddhism means a loss of awareness and the consequent suffering, hence rebirth into the world of suffering. Read Ajahn Cha. Rebirth has nothing to do with physical death. Honoring ancestors is a relic of Confucianism and is practiced in many Asian countries influenced by his teachings. There is a lot of tedious dogma and mumbo-jumbo which is not part of Buddha's teachings. It keeps the mind very busy and is antithetical to enlightment; however, people are entitled to their beliefs what ever they may be.

A quote taken from Ajahn Sumedho regarding what you are saying:

"When Ajahn Chah taught about rebirth, he did so in the context of paticcasumappada, or dependent origination. He was talking about the kind of rebirth you can actually witness in daily life; birth is the beginning, death is the ending. How many rebirths have you gone through today, mentally ? What is born dies; what arises, ceases. Rebirth in this sense is actually provable.

In the paticcasamuppada, through desire (tanha) comes attachment (upadana), and then attachment leads to becoming (bhava), becoming leads to rebirth, and rebirth leads to suffering. Jati (birth) is the result of grasping desire.

I quite like the idea of reincarnation and rebirth, on a theoretical level. I’ve no bias against it, but it is speculative and it’s conceptual.”"

But on the flip side, Ajahn Chah personally cautions, "We shouldn't have fears of death. We should fear the lower realms. Don't fear dying; rather be afraid of falling into hell." I use this only as an example. He also talks about all the various realms of existence that were expounded by the Buddha.

Anyway, wasn't looking to engage in a 'rebirth' debate. Back to the original question: "Why placate a lingering spirit, instead of inviting it to move forward along the path of Dhamma." Rhetorical? Absolutely.

[DogNo1]

Thanks. I haven't read the book in which Ajahn Cha talks about fearing the lower realms. Could you tell me what it is? Personally, I haven't had an NDE and don't believe in planes of existence. You live and suffer. You become aware of ways to escape suffering and take them as you are able. When you die, it is all over. There is nothing after death. That seems to be a point that many religions do not accept. Fear of death and nothingness is indeed powerful.

I suppose that paticcasamuppada - the detailed explanation of the process of rebirth is interesting to some but to me it's sort of like a detailed explanation of how to eat a piece of meat. Technically correct but totally unnecessary. To me, reading about planes of existence and the intricate process of rebirth is a kind of suffering. It keeps the mind busy which is the opposite of what I want. This endless chattering on about esoteric words and philosophical theories is something which I think that Buddha would not have liked.

[connda]

Thanks. I haven't read the book in which Ajahn Cha talks about fearing the lower realms. Could you tell me what it is? Personally, I haven't had an NDE and don't believe in planes of existence. You live and suffer. You become aware of ways to escape suffering and take them as you are able. When you die, it is all over. There is nothing after death. That seems to be a point that many religions do not accept. Fear of death and nothingness is indeed powerful.

I suppose that paticcasamuppada - the detailed explanation of the process of rebirth is interesting to some but to me it's sort of like a detailed explanation of how to eat a piece of meat. Technically correct but totally unnecessary. To me, reading about planes of existence and the intricate process of rebirth is a kind of suffering. It keeps the mind busy which is the opposite of what I want. This endless chattering on about esoteric words and philosophical theories is something which I think that Buddha would not have liked.

You've probably have read that there, in reality, is 'no one' there. We mistakenly perceive that the five aggregates to be a "Me", a self. But have you ever been there and directly experience that? Don't know if you meditate. I've been at it for over 40 years. I've been in that space. I spent about 2 days in that state. And then it passed on.

You know, before you check out permanently, you ought to book a flight to Peru and go on an ayahuasca retreat, then reassess everything you think you know. Mediation gets you there, but it's a really slow process. Just a thought.

One of my favorite quotes:

“Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the Weather.”

― Bill Hicks

Anyway, here's a link:

http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/It_Can_Be_Done.php

And a long link but it will get you to the correct page from Ajahn Sumedho:

https://books.google.com/books?id=TrSnkvz1SjUC&pg=PA237&lpg=PA237&dq=%22%E2%80%9CRebirth,%E2%80%9D+like+%E2%80%9Creincarnation,%E2%80%9D+is+a+term+that%E2%80%99s+used+generally+referring+to+having+gone+through+a+series+of+different+lives,+and+then+there+are+various+views+about+whether+once+you+get%22&source=bl&ots=u54e8sqxrt&sig=4vhoWpM3C0Dcq2pr52brDdo6fss&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAGoVChMI2NvglcaryAIVjbYeCh15awN9#v=onepage&q=%22%E2%80%9CRebirth%2C%E2%80%9D%20like%20%E2%80%9Creincarnation%2C%E2%80%9D%20is%20a%20term%20that%E2%80%99s%20used%20generally%20referring%20to%20having%20gone%20through%20a%20series%20of%20different%20lives%2C%20and%20then%20there%20are%20various%20views%20about%20whether%20once%20you%20get%22&f=false

Edited October 5, 2015 by connda

[AYJAYDEE]

I dont see thais trying to encourage the spirits to stay where they are. The merit making is simply to make their existance bearable UNTIL they are reborn. They want their relatives to be reborn in easier circumstances but until they can be, they want to make sure they are not without food, comfort and encouragement.

[fang37]

Rebirth is an area of Buddhism which I have failed to come to grips with.

I have read, sought opinion & am no further progressed.

So what.

[only1]

Rebirth is an area of Buddhism which I have failed to come to grips with.

I have read, sought opinion & am no further progressed.

So what.

Ok,for your benefits, I give you a hint. Actually I wanted to keep everything to put them in a new thread

Compare rebirth to Entein's energy theory and you may able to grasp something. Unless you don't believe in science.

[fang37]

only1

Both you & I have an intense interest in Buddhism?

I have met you on several threads relating to this subject.

Edited October 7, 2015 by fang37

[only1]

only1

Both you & I have an intense interest in Buddhism?

I have met you on several threads relating to this subject.

I don't know your interest but mine is not only on Buddhism. I have interests in all major religions and other subjects too.

I know more about Christianity compared to Buddhism.

[camerata]

Off-topic nonsense posts have been deleted. Stick to the topic, please.

[camerata]

My wife this morning talked at length about the deceased relatives that she was going to offer food/merit to tomorrow on Wan Pra. Very animistic. But then again, a number of Pali chants specifically offer merit to, well, deceased relatives.

But I believe I'm a real minority, for what I see are Thai Buddhist placating the spirits of their relative and others who may continue to dwell around them and their homes, businesses, and communities, not to help move them to a higher realm of existence and rebirth, but to make them happy clinging to the past, to this existence where their physical body has passed away, but the disembodied "knower' who is still in the delusional grip of conditioned existence remains anchored to in this plane of existence where they really do not belong. Why are they not taught to use merit to invite and move this entities onto the path of rebirth?

I think there are two practices going on here. The first is making merit for deceased relatives who are stuck in the Suffering Ghost realm ("Hungry Ghost" is apparently the Chinese term), presumably to help them get out of it quicker. This is mentioned in the Pali Canon although it seems to be a contradiction of the Buddha's teaching that we are responsible for our own liberation.

The second is the animist propitiation of spirits residing around the home - especially angry spirits who died violently. Red Fanta is often used as an offering, which is symbolic of the blood sacrifices made in former times. Tree spirits are also propitiated. These predate Buddhism but fit nicely into Buddhism's Devas of the Four Great Kings, as yakkhas.

[connda]

I dont see thais trying to encourage the spirits to stay where they are. The merit making is simply to make their existance bearable UNTIL they are reborn. They want their relatives to be reborn in easier circumstances but until they can be, they want to make sure they are not without food, comfort and encouragement.

Yeah, that makes sense. I keep telling my wife: "Don't invite them to stay, invite them to move on." Lol

[connda]

Rebirth is an area of Buddhism which I have failed to come to grips with.

I have read, sought opinion & am no further progressed.

So what.

Ok,for your benefits, I give you a hint. Actually I wanted to keep everything to put them in a new thread

Compare rebirth to Entein's energy theory and you may able to grasp something. Unless you don't believe in science.

Actually Buddhism and Quantum Physics is a good fit.

[connda]

Rebirth is an area of Buddhism which I have failed to come to grips with.

I have read, sought opinion & am no further progressed.

So what.

I think the confusion lies in the way people personally conceptualize rebirth. I believe that many people think that a self-aware spirit entity passes on from death to rebirth. And with the number of Near Death Experiences that have been documented it might be easy to believe that. Or maybe that still aware entity goes to a heaven or a hell or an intermediate state, all of which I can buy. I just don't believe that those states are permanent, because if there is a heaven or hell to go to, then you are still in dualistic reality. And if you're in dualistic reality: anicca anicca anicca - change is still the only constant.

Now here's what is tough to wrap your head around. And it has to do with experiencing non-self first-hand. If you've experience it, then it's easier to grasp that their is no 'self' that transports itself to a new life. What there is is 'causes' and 'effects'. So what transcends this life is really nothing except causation that creates future effects (phenomenon) in this dualistic existence. So another physical body is created though which causation exerts effects in the realm of the five senses and mind of that new born, who then, as he/she ages develops a sense of self based on the identification (clinging) to what is now arising and falling away - which again is mistakenly identified as self.

Sorry, that probably didn't clarify anything for you. Don't worry. Live your life. Be happy.

[only1]

Rebirth is an area of Buddhism which I have failed to come to grips with.

I have read, sought opinion & am no further progressed.

So what.

Ok,for your benefits, I give you a hint. Actually I wanted to keep everything to put them in a new thread

Compare rebirth to Entein's energy theory and you may able to grasp something. Unless you don't believe in science.

Actually Buddhism and Quantum Physics is a good fit.

Not yet, quantum physics is getting closer to Buddhism now but still far from it.

Entein's theory that energy cAnnot be created or destroyed but can be transformed fit well into rebirth; and Newton's law of action and reaction fits well into Buddhism's karma theory.

Nothing more can be proven by science yet unless quantum science can even go beyond quark and can see the life energy level.

Until then now, we can only say they are coherent, which I find it logical enough.

Actually, my first thread here since joining this forum(you can read them) to to explain the scientific part of Buddhism but since no one is interested or able to follow, I decided to end it, until people is able to understand them or at least have a logical sense for it.

Edited October 10, 2015 by only1