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Posted

So THB 9k a month in rent for a studio or shoe box size condo, I'll pass in favour of having a life and some space.

My landlord would be most offended. 46 sqm studio, fully furnished, good location, river view, swimming pool. I do have a life. I choose to spend my money on different things to you. Perhaps you just need the space for your ego.

It's not about ego it's about the practicalities of life. My condo rent in Muang (Floral) was 22k a month for 150 sq metre, 2 bed/2 bath, centrally located. A year ago I bought a great house, seven years old, 180 sq metres on one rai with the most beautiful gardens you could wish for, the cost was 3 mill. When I die my wife gets the house, that gives us both peace of mind, if I continued to rent she would just get cash. More importantly, the house and garden gives us both huge satisfaction and provides for a series of projects that keep me fit and busy - the cost of our electricity consumption has fallen from an average 1,900 a month to just over 1,000 and our water from 600 a month to 200, similar savings have presented themselves as a result of not living in Muang. I have never been more fit and healthy and we have never been as happy.

Sounds great chiang mai - and at 3 million, not the end of the world if it all goes t*ts-up. I bet you (or your wife) could claw at least some of that back if you need to sell at some stage (assuming it's an OK property).
Did you take out a mortgage on that though? If it wasn't self-financed, then the actual cost over time (with a mortgage) is considerably higher than 3 million and therefore the percentage of value you need to be prepared to write off also goes up.
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Posted

Though your not my cup of tea. Rent until you die , owning property and in your relationship is impossible. Put money in a retirement plan for each other and just rent.

Posted

So THB 9k a month in rent for a studio or shoe box size condo, I'll pass in favour of having a life and some space.

My landlord would be most offended. 46 sqm studio, fully furnished, good location, river view, swimming pool. I do have a life. I choose to spend my money on different things to you. Perhaps you just need the space for your ego.

It's not about ego it's about the practicalities of life. My condo rent in Muang (Floral) was 22k a month for 150 sq metre, 2 bed/2 bath, centrally located. A year ago I bought a great house, seven years old, 180 sq metres on one rai with the most beautiful gardens you could wish for, the cost was 3 mill. When I die my wife gets the house, that gives us both peace of mind, if I continued to rent she would just get cash. More importantly, the house and garden gives us both huge satisfaction and provides for a series of projects that keep me fit and busy - the cost of our electricity consumption has fallen from an average 1,900 a month to just over 1,000 and our water from 600 a month to 200, similar savings have presented themselves as a result of not living in Muang. I have never been more fit and healthy and we have never been as happy.

Sounds great chiang mai - and at 3 million, not the end of the world if it all goes t*ts-up. I bet you (or your wife) could claw at least some of that back if you need to sell at some stage (assuming it's an OK property).
Did you take out a mortgage on that though? If it wasn't self-financed, then the actual cost over time (with a mortgage) is considerably higher than 3 million and therefore the percentage of value you need to be prepared to write off also goes up.

No it was a cash deal and a small enough price to where I can't get hurt in an absolute worst case scenario. And yes, it has some value if we wanted to sell although I really don't know or care what that value might be, my strongest guess however is that most people who saw it would be prepared to pay more than I did, simply by virtue of the gardens which are now some of the nicest in the area. I think the absolute biggest benefit we have seen through changing from a condo to a house is our health and fitness, despite going to the gym three times a week previously, I was shocked by how out of shape I really was once I started to do house and garden related projects and this point cannot be understated. Financially, with interest rates at an appallingly low level, every day I live here is money in the bank.

Posted

I always advise people to never buy property in Thailand for way too many reasons to list. Do a little research here, you'll find one disaster story after another.

There is so much to rent why create a headache for yourself? It's always a bad investment. Even if it makes you money, there is too much risk. I live here in Phuket and everyone I know has sold or wants to sell and can't.

Is it the nesting urge? wink.png

Spot on. I have just talked a friend out of buying a 5.4mil baht condo, he has no one to leave it to when he dies, he is single here and after a few bad experiences wants to stay that way.

My advice was keep your money invested back home, rent a nice condo and if you are not happy there you can break the lease and move.

Posted

I always advise people to never buy property in Thailand for way too many reasons to list. Do a little research here, you'll find one disaster story after another.

There is so much to rent why create a headache for yourself? It's always a bad investment. Even if it makes you money, there is too much risk. I live here in Phuket and everyone I know has sold or wants to sell and can't.

Is it the nesting urge? wink.png

If that's what you always advise, you do them no good service:

2005 I bought a condo for 6.5 mill., four years later I sold it for the same amount, the buyer actually came and knocked on my door and asked me if I wanted to sell. So for four years I lived rent free, but the best part is that the funds I used to buy the condo came into the country at 75 baht per Pound and when I sold I did so at 51 baht per Pound. So I saved 1.2 mill. in rent during that period plus I made 50,000 Pounds when I sold. Don't tell me it's always a bad investment!

And actually, I know owners at condo. units here that have several upmarket units that they rent out for 30/40k a month, units that they bought when I did, the value of those units today are worth over 9 million baht each.

Posted (edited)

Having alot of trouble with understanding why some people think renting is throwing money away. If you put down a million on a 5 million baht house....then you stand to lose that million. By renting, you can invest the one million for retirement. In 15 or 20 years, you will almost definitely make a profit. A divorce/other circumstances put the house at risk. The market is overpriced...not likely a retiree is going to sell his home here....if he did, it would be at a loss (if he sold it right away). Nobody seems to be buying second hand homes right now...anyways.

Mortgage and rent being approximately the same.

I understand some people have 5 million cash, to payoff the entire house..... I (personally) think that is unwise. I do also respect elderly gentleman who only wish to pass their house on to their loving wife/family...which I commend. We are not all at that stage in life. My wife will gain in savings.... Many wives, who have a house with equity, will probably pawn out the house for a loan..... My feeling is that cash in hand, for my wife, is more important than a large home. We are of the same approximate age, with no children. If I should pass, she has scores of relatives that would take her in...with that cash. She could buy them out.

Edited by slipperylobster
Posted

Renting is not a bad idea, it's a very good idea but it's not a long term proposition and it's economically unwise over the very long term. It's great for interim's, periods of uncertainty and transition.

Posted

Renting is not a bad idea, it's a very good idea but it's not a long term proposition and it's economically unwise over the very long term. It's great for interim's, periods of uncertainty and transition.

And there is no doubt that Thailand is presently in a period of uncertainty and transistion.

Posted

Renting is not a bad idea, it's a very good idea but it's not a long term proposition and it's economically unwise over the very long term. It's great for interim's, periods of uncertainty and transition.

And there is no doubt that Thailand is presently in a period of uncertainty and transistion.

Well yes, but it always has been. But if you are thinking of waiting until everything is settled and it's all nice and cosy with glasses of warm milk and biscuits in front of an open fire, real estate will be so expensive at that point that only a major lottery win will help you buy!

It has to be said that buying/investing in Thailand, or any other developing country, does require at least some balls.

Posted (edited)

I always advise people to never buy property in Thailand for way too many reasons to list. Do a little research here, you'll find one disaster story after another.

There is so much to rent why create a headache for yourself? It's always a bad investment. Even if it makes you money, there is too much risk. I live here in Phuket and everyone I know has sold or wants to sell and can't.

Is it the nesting urge? wink.png

If that's what you always advise, you do them no good service:

2005 I bought a condo for 6.5 mill., four years later I sold it for the same amount, the buyer actually came and knocked on my door and asked me if I wanted to sell. So for four years I lived rent free, but the best part is that the funds I used to buy the condo came into the country at 75 baht per Pound and when I sold I did so at 51 baht per Pound. So I saved 1.2 mill. in rent during that period plus I made 50,000 Pounds when I sold. Don't tell me it's always a bad investment!

And actually, I know owners at condo. units here that have several upmarket units that they rent out for 30/40k a month, units that they bought when I did, the value of those units today are worth over 9 million baht each.

You were lucky chiang mai - not only in having a ready buyer for your property, but also because of the exchange rate shift. I'm also hoping to take advantage of that when selling up - my baht were bought at 72 to the pound, and although I'll take a hit when I come to sell my Thai property, the exchange rate difference softens the blow considerably. so I'm hoping it will be cost neutral, at least in GBP terms (but fingers crossed - I don't have a signed sale contract yet...)
I wouldn't give the impression that it's a no-brainer however (i.e. making a profit on Thai property) - you can't assume in x years time i) that your property value will go up, ii) you will easily find a willing buyer and iii) exchange rate values are likely to work in your favour
I don't understand the condo market myself, but I know there are farangs who are stuck with ones they no longer want.
Edited by GlutinousMaximus
Posted

So THB 9k a month in rent for a studio or shoe box size condo, I'll pass in favour of having a life and some space.

My landlord would be most offended. 46 sqm studio, fully furnished, good location, river view, swimming pool. I do have a life. I choose to spend my money on different things to you. Perhaps you just need the space for your ego.

It's not about ego it's about the practicalities of life. My condo rent in Muang (Floral) was 22k a month for 150 sq metre, 2 bed/2 bath, centrally located. A year ago I bought a great house, seven years old, 180 sq metres on one rai with the most beautiful gardens you could wish for, the cost was 3 mill. When I die my wife gets the house, that gives us both peace of mind, if I continued to rent she would just get cash. More importantly, the house and garden gives us both huge satisfaction and provides for a series of projects that keep me fit and busy - the cost of our electricity consumption has fallen from an average 1,900 a month to just over 1,000 and our water from 600 a month to 200, similar savings have presented themselves as a result of not living in Muang. I have never been more fit and healthy and we have never been as happy.

Ok, your priorities are different to mine. I used to have a sign in the garden of a house I owned in Australia which said "Bugger the garden - gone golfing".

How long have you been in Thailand? Analysis of your posts on numbers alone on TV says if you've been in Thailand 10 years, you are averaging

almost 5 posts a day. I'm not criticising the number, just asking if TV is one of of the things that keep you busy.

FYI, I average about 600 baht/month for electricity, and 30 baht/month for water. Yes, I do shower every day; however, I'm not watering a garden.

Posted

as I have low tolerance threshold I looked around for a couple of days for a place and found a really nice joint in a complex called Silk Road just out of Jomtien.

they have agreed 37k thb a month (its 3 bed, 2 dunny, fully furnished, double garage, big communal park in middle, flash communal pool area, gym, games blah blah, 24 hr monitored and gated security)

based on the common theme through this thread I feel like I am paying 30kthb more than what anyone here is prepared to pay.

Have I rushed in and are there these mega cheap properties that I have missed somehow....

It really depends on location and what you are looking for. Jomtien and Pattaya are at the expensive end, Chiang Mai and Chiang Rai are not.

I am very happy with my 46 sqm studio in CM at 8500 baht/month. You may think it's like living in a sardine can.

I think the rule of thumb is 40 odd sqm 10K, 90 odd sqm 20k and so on.

As with everything else, you have to shop around. A low tolerance threshold could mean you were in to much of a hurry to reach a decision.

Posted

To rent my current house would cost around 100-120K baht a Month.. I bought it outright two yrs back and in roughly 10 years ( less actually cos I couldn't see the rental cost remaining static over that time span ) it becomes "free" Nice area, decent large expat houses as neighboring dwellings, not in a "village" Good design, insulation, pool, solar water, decent electrics and a water bore. I'm free to decorate and extend as I see fit. I have other properties overseas and the total cost represents only a small part of my income.. Why would I want to rent ? If I decide to move I can sell and go.. Done it twice before in Pattaya despite the naysayers.. The only trick ? Buy a decent place in good location and ask a fair price.. it will sell. If I drop dead or I separate from my wife so be it.. That's life.. I'd rather take that chance than live in a box that I can't do anything with and be at the mercy of a Thai landlord.. Third house here in 14 yrs.. So far so good.

Posted

So THB 9k a month in rent for a studio or shoe box size condo, I'll pass in favour of having a life and some space.

My landlord would be most offended. 46 sqm studio, fully furnished, good location, river view, swimming pool. I do have a life. I choose to spend my money on different things to you. Perhaps you just need the space for your ego.

It's not about ego it's about the practicalities of life. My condo rent in Muang (Floral) was 22k a month for 150 sq metre, 2 bed/2 bath, centrally located. A year ago I bought a great house, seven years old, 180 sq metres on one rai with the most beautiful gardens you could wish for, the cost was 3 mill. When I die my wife gets the house, that gives us both peace of mind, if I continued to rent she would just get cash. More importantly, the house and garden gives us both huge satisfaction and provides for a series of projects that keep me fit and busy - the cost of our electricity consumption has fallen from an average 1,900 a month to just over 1,000 and our water from 600 a month to 200, similar savings have presented themselves as a result of not living in Muang. I have never been more fit and healthy and we have never been as happy.

Ok, your priorities are different to mine. I used to have a sign in the garden of a house I owned in Australia which said "Bugger the garden - gone golfing".

How long have you been in Thailand? Analysis of your posts on numbers alone on TV says if you've been in Thailand 10 years, you are averaging

almost 5 posts a day. I'm not criticising the number, just asking if TV is one of of the things that keep you busy.

FYI, I average about 600 baht/month for electricity, and 30 baht/month for water. Yes, I do shower every day; however, I'm not watering a garden.

11 years here full time - 5 a day, yes, condo's do that to you sometimes! Although in all fairness, I have been involved here in TVF in setting up a series of labour intensive threads such as the list of doctors and medical profesionals in CM plus the interest rates threads, both of which consumed loads and loads of posts.

Posted

I on the other hand recommend you buy in order to save on wasted rental payments, if you think you need some protection, take out an usufruct.

Sadly you will only ever hear from nervous and overly cautious expats on this subject or from the ones that can't afford to buy, the satisfied farang/Thai owners are content to get on with their lives without needing to constantly bleat on about how unsafe the country for foreigners and how dangerous it is to invest here. Big yawn!

It's not those factors that concern me - it's the illiquidity of Thai property.
Usurfucts also don't strike me as 100% cast-iron (just Google this forum for caveats about them).
Even if you only spend 1 million on building a house, well up in Issan, I can rent a decent house + garden for 6k a month. Do the math as the Americans say - 6k a month = 70K a year, so 1 million buys you approx 14 years of rental living - not bad at all (try doing that in the West)......plus if DJ Somchai moves in next door with his 2000 Watt sound system, you just up sticks and go somewhere else.

Additionally, you may have bought a nice house in a nice location but that may not stop someone opening a noisy metal bashing business or something with nasty smells next door or across the street or similar.

I am 20 years older than my wife so a house means that she is taken care of when I pass.

Unfortunately, my pension ceases when I do LOL

A nice 3 bed 2 bath house with a kitchen and small garden where we live is a bit less than 2 Million but the rental income, even furnished, is only about 5Kb/month and you run the risk that they do damage etc.

Posted

I think the ability to pass along our house/home to a wife is a very important consideration for many of us, it certainly is for me.

But in respect of the potential DJ or metal bashers opening next door:

There is something about the real expat in Thailand (and elsewhere) that sets them apart from the rest of the herd, willingness to take a risk, unafraid of the unknown, not too concerned about the lack of structure, ability to adapt and so on. People who come here who want uniformity and conformity, strict residential zoning laws, black and white laws, a Goldilocks solution to everything in their lives, probably came to the wrong place for the wrong reasons and/or aren't really cut out to be real expats, they simply don't have the right stuff and perhaps are really just long vactioners rather than expats!

Posted (edited)

Their are pro & cons for buying or renting ... each persons situation is individual and different.

Renting may suit the single guy who doesn't want any asset in Thailand ..... or even a family who like to move after a few years.

Buying may suit the OP as he is building an asset for the partner, so long term he will own something not just look back and say he's rented for the past 5 years.

I built 2 houses and bought the land next door, same idea is building the assets and the plus is that it's much cheaper to buy here than in the west.

I prefer the buying over renting for ownership, you can design, renovate, extend, add gardens and do as you please ..... you cannot do that if you rent.

Edited by steven100
Posted

Hi Everyone

A huge thanks for the info. Well we have been married (civil partnership) for nearly 10 years so very settled and lived here and worked for 13, in that time we have ploughed 3 million into rent and have nothing to show for it. I went to Bangkok bank and they basically told me, yes he can own the land and my name can also go onto the loan, but for the building. I have rented most of my life and although it gives less worries, the property is never yours, and even if you sell it near the same value you get some back.

Also I like updating the houses we live in, but this just adds value to the owner. My idea would be to get a loan and pay it off as quick as humanly possible. Inside 10 years. if we leave Thailand in the future we would rent it out to cover some costs.

But I do hear what people are saying, and I know the horror divorce stories etc, but this specific house has my name written on it..

Can anyone who has bought a house let me know what they did after the mortgage interview. The bank mentioned it takes about 2-3 weeks including the house appraisal. They weren't interested in us having a lawyer, just sign the mortgage and that's it. There doesn't seem to be any need for land survey or structural surveys. Is this normal??

Thanks again everyone.

Posted

For the person who bought the condo...

apples and bananas....has nothing to do with purchasing land (which you cannot) or acquiring a house (which you cannot)

happy you made money with the condo and lived rent free. Most of us would have to mortgage.....and I think the poster is referring to a mortgage.

One can actually own a condo....that is not what the thread is about...however

Posted

Hi Everyone

A huge thanks for the info. Well we have been married (civil partnership) for nearly 10 years so very settled and lived here and worked for 13, in that time we have ploughed 3 million into rent and have nothing to show for it. I went to Bangkok bank and they basically told me, yes he can own the land and my name can also go onto the loan, but for the building. I have rented most of my life and although it gives less worries, the property is never yours, and even if you sell it near the same value you get some back.

Also I like updating the houses we live in, but this just adds value to the owner. My idea would be to get a loan and pay it off as quick as humanly possible. Inside 10 years. if we leave Thailand in the future we would rent it out to cover some costs.

But I do hear what people are saying, and I know the horror divorce stories etc, but this specific house has my name written on it..

Can anyone who has bought a house let me know what they did after the mortgage interview. The bank mentioned it takes about 2-3 weeks including the house appraisal. They weren't interested in us having a lawyer, just sign the mortgage and that's it. There doesn't seem to be any need for land survey or structural surveys. Is this normal??

Thanks again everyone.

Hi jamiejoel
Glad to hear you might be able to go ahead & as you say, aiming to get your loan paid off quickly is very sensible.
There's been a good spread of opinion on this thread both for and against mortgages/house purchases and that's good as it provides food for thought for others that might read it in future - I certainly wish I'd read more of this kind of feedback before diving into building my own house, but you live and learn I guess.
I'm no expert, but things to do with property seem to be a lot vaguer over here than in say the UK. I suppose surveyors and the like exist, but good luck with getting a professional opinion where you can sue if they turn out to be wrong or there are serious defects with the house. Try doing a forum search on TVF - there are other threads asking similar questions.
Best of luck with your plans.
Posted
Very good advice here.
Mortgage rates in Thailand aren't particularly cheap (compared to the UK for example) so let's say you borrowed 2 million baht at 6% interest (and it will probably be more than that), then just servicing the interest could cost around 120K a year (obviously that goes down over time) - you could get a really nice rental pad for that.

But not necessarily good advice from you.

Your idea fails to consider how long the property will be occupied. In less than 17 years (not long for a "married" couple) of just paying interest it would have been cheaper to buy.

Posted

Such sound advice from posters recommending RENT.

OP you mentioned you have 20% of value. Unless your talking about a very expensive house then that deposit is very small. You are not buying a house. You are buying less than 20%

Been together 10 years and saved how much?

No feedback from the OP yet on all these pearls of wisdom...is this one of those topics where you just wind it up, and watch it run (and run) ?
I notice there's a similar thread about buy vs rent in this sub-forum - it's currently at 5 pages.

Pearls of wisdom? You must be being sarcastic.

With all the to-ing and fro-ing, the-way-I-did-it-is-better-than-the-way-you-did-it and the various bits of nonsense being promulgated, it's hardly surprising he hasn't been back so far.

Posted (edited)
Very good advice here.
Mortgage rates in Thailand aren't particularly cheap (compared to the UK for example) so let's say you borrowed 2 million baht at 6% interest (and it will probably be more than that), then just servicing the interest could cost around 120K a year (obviously that goes down over time) - you could get a really nice rental pad for that.

But not necessarily good advice from you.

Your idea fails to consider how long the property will be occupied. In less than 17 years (not long for a "married" couple) of just paying interest it would have been cheaper to buy.

Thanks for your snippy posts - very helpful.
What you say is maybe true back in farangland where people can have their name on the property deeds and it's backed by the rule of law. I've happily bought properties with interest-only mortgages there because I can easily calculate that i) mortgage interest payments are cheaper than rent and ii) likely house price growth is likely to payback more than the interest I've paid, so it's a no-brainer.
I still contend that in Thailand, with its high cost of borrowing, uncertainties over long-term residency, potential legal difficulties with true property ownership as a farang (condos aside), then it should be approached with caution, especially if it's mortgage-backed. If you have a Thai partner for example and personal reasons to be comfortable with the whole deal, then good luck to you.
Enter a loan amount of 2mill over 20 years at 6.5% - it's not until year 9 that the interest payment dips under 100K per annum. In the example above, the total interest amounts to 1,578,751.05 (according to the calculator) - that's a hefty chunk of cash.
Once you've paid your loan off, whoopee - now you can put your house on the market with a view to trading up and enjoy the mature, well-developed real estate sector that Thailand enjoys right? Wrong - all I can say is good luck getting a decent ROI. Some people do, some don't. (BTW - you may need to get a shaman in to certify there are no ghosts in your second hand property before you can find a buyer).
Any calculations are subject to variables obviously - for the people on this thread who claim their property would cost upwards of 100K pcm to rent (I'd expect a palace for that in Thailand), then maybe it makes sense. I'm personally not in that market and would settle happily for a tidy little 5k pcm house upcountry somewhere.
Edited by GlutinousMaximus
Posted

Such sound advice from posters recommending RENT.

OP you mentioned you have 20% of value. Unless your talking about a very expensive house then that deposit is very small. You are not buying a house. You are buying less than 20%

Been together 10 years and saved how much?

No feedback from the OP yet on all these pearls of wisdom...is this one of those topics where you just wind it up, and watch it run (and run) ?
I notice there's a similar thread about buy vs rent in this sub-forum - it's currently at 5 pages.

Pearls of wisdom? You must be being sarcastic.

With all the to-ing and fro-ing, the-way-I-did-it-is-better-than-the-way-you-did-it and the various bits of nonsense being promulgated, it's hardly surprising he hasn't been back so far.

The OP has posted again thanking all for the input - see above.

Posted
(BTW - you may need to get a shaman in to certify there are no ghosts in your second hand property before you can find a buyer).

Now that is a real problem in Thailand.

My step son was murdered in one of those inter college gang fights last year.

His ghost was seen in the house by the lady who keeps it clean whilst we are in Europe.

(We spend the rainy season in Europe).

We had to engage a new cleaner....

and, when we return later this year, my wife intends to have Another house blessing....

an attempt to pacify neighbours perhaps?

My wife sees ghosts everywhere, even in hotels in Europe.....

Genuinely, this makes me wonder if Thai culture allows them to see things that we have lost the ability to see.

I mean, who and how the hell did some Chinese manage to "see" the meridian lines regarding acupuncture, as an example?

Just because I can't see them doesn't mean that they are not there!

Posted (edited)

For the person who bought the condo...

apples and bananas....has nothing to do with purchasing land (which you cannot) or acquiring a house (which you cannot)

happy you made money with the condo and lived rent free. Most of us would have to mortgage.....and I think the poster is referring to a mortgage.

One can actually own a condo....that is not what the thread is about...however

Yes sorry, I digressed, I was simply trying to reinforce that buying a property/investing in Thailand is a sound idea, in light of the naysayers who insist foreigners should always rent.

Edited by chiang mai
Posted (edited)

For the person who bought the condo...

apples and bananas....has nothing to do with purchasing land (which you cannot) or acquiring a house (which you cannot)

happy you made money with the condo and lived rent free. Most of us would have to mortgage.....and I think the poster is referring to a mortgage.

One can actually own a condo....that is not what the thread is about...however

^^^^

"acquiring a house (which you cannot)"

I doubt that this is totally true.

I believe that the thing a "normal" farang cannot do is be a registered land owner.

However, his Thai partner can own land, then the Farang can have a rental contract for the land and "place/build" a house on the land.

At any time the Farang may decide to "remove" his property.

As an example, one of those wonderful wooden houses?

In any event, even if the partnership dissolved for some reason, the Farang would be the owner and could control who lived in or had access to the property.

In theory, the Farang could rent the property to a third party.....

(I know, many a slip twixt cup and lip - TiT)

Edited by laislica
Posted (edited)

And of course, a foreigner can own outright a house in Thailand, in their own name.

You paid for a house quite recently and you're a foreigner ...........

Is the house owned outright in your own name?

Edited by MaeJoMTB

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