jspill Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) All that matters is the location of the WORKER not the location of the parent company or where any salary gets paid. In your opinion. Here's a Thaivisa member being told 'no problem for you!' when explaining at immigration that he works online. http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/749038-with-a-thai-elite-visa-can-a-person-work-legally-as-a-digital-nomad/page-7#entry8314920 When I got my last visa I was asked how I supported myself I told them I work on line and showed them statements confirming I was paid into my UK account, they were happy with this and gave me a visa. I've got no interest in being "under the radar" as far as I can see the only people who have an issue with the legality of on line work are other westerners posting on here and their opinions really don't matter. Many such reports on these forums, and not one digital nomad arrested, ever, in Thailand or worldwide. Can you imagine the US authorities arresting a Thai tourist for running an adsense blog about cats, in the Thai language? Edited October 13, 2015 by jspill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigt3116 Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 All that matters is the location of the WORKER not the location of the parent company or where any salary gets paid. In your opinion. Here's a Thaivisa member being told 'no problem for you!' when explaining at immigration that he works online. http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/749038-with-a-thai-elite-visa-can-a-person-work-legally-as-a-digital-nomad/page-7#entry8314920 When I got my last visa I was asked how I supported myself I told them I work on line and showed them statements confirming I was paid into my UK account, they were happy with this and gave me a visa. I've got no interest in being "under the radar" as far as I can see the only people who have an issue with the legality of on line work are other westerners posting on here and their opinions really don't matter. Many such reports on these forums, and not one digital nomad arrested, ever, in Thailand or worldwide. Can you imagine the US authorities arresting a Thai tourist for running an adsense blog about cats, in the Thai language? If that person was getting a visa, he was not explaining to Immigration, but to some foreign national in a Thai Embassy or Consulate abroad. Totally different kettle of fish. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitsune Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 All that matters is the location of the WORKER not the location of the parent company or where any salary gets paid. In your opinion. Here's a Thaivisa member being told 'no problem for you!' when explaining at immigration that he works online. http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/749038-with-a-thai-elite-visa-can-a-person-work-legally-as-a-digital-nomad/page-7#entry8314920 When I got my last visa I was asked how I supported myself I told them I work on line and showed them statements confirming I was paid into my UK account, they were happy with this and gave me a visa. I've got no interest in being "under the radar" as far as I can see the only people who have an issue with the legality of on line work are other westerners posting on here and their opinions really don't matter. Many such reports on these forums, and not one digital nomad arrested, ever, in Thailand or worldwide. Can you imagine the US authorities arresting a Thai tourist for running an adsense blog about cats, in the Thai language? What's with blog about cats??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elviajero Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 How can he have a Thai work permit for a company not located in Thailand? You can't which is why you can't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitsune Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 How can he have a Thai work permit for a company not located in Thailand? You can't which is why you can't work. Thats my point. Your job cannot be covered by a work permit therefore you are not considered as working, therefore should be left in peace. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jspill Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 What's with blog about cats??? Just an example to show how varied money making endeavours online are There are people that make millions simply recording themselves playing video games and telling jokes (Google Youtube user 'PewDiePie'). I can't see him being arrested and put on trial if he flies to Thailand for a 9 month trip, spending some of those American dollars on Thai goods and churning out a few more videos while on Thai soil. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigt3116 Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) . Edited October 13, 2015 by bigt3116 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elviajero Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 There is nothing in the Alien Working Act that exempts online work from requiring a WP. Those working online that continue to encourage others to do the same should try the following. On your next visa application write the reason for visa as 'Live in Thailand and work online'. Go to your local Department of Labour, inform them that you work online, and ask for a WP. If successful at obtaining both, or are told a WP isn't needed, please report back. The only reason online workers get away with it is because they do not disclose their activities, are an insignificant number and are probably way down on the authorities hit list. The time and cost of perusing these people is prohibitive alone. Forgive me if I put the burden of proof on the people telling me I'm a criminal instead, and don't go out of my way to prove a negative. You realise online income is usually passive, right? So it's slowly entering people's bank accounts without them doing anything. Income isn't linearly related to hours put in anymore, like in the ancestral realm of chisels, overalls and spades. Does anyone with a residual online income become a criminal when they set foot in Thailand? "Online income is usually passive, right?." Wrong! It's sometimes passive. And if passive it's not working and doesn't require a WP. The burden of proof is with you, and you can prove your claim by doing what I suggest. Alternatively, if you know of a non-passive online worker let us have the address and we can test your theory that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phuketruski Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 thailand is no place for a young person who isnt rich or without a trust fund.. long term anyway. more of a retirement home for the baby boomers to blow there saving ,superanuation and pensions on hobby investments that are usually doomed from the word go when they put there business in there isaan wifes name without a prenup agreement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impulse Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) C'mon over. The water is fine. Today. Set up your entire life around online work from in Thailand on an "iffy" situation (illegal, but no enforcement as far as I can tell), and you can be one of the thousands of foreigners who had to pack up and leave as their loophole got closed over the years. Or one of the thousands who end up destitute and in poor health with no options when things don't work out, or God forbid, they require extensive health care... Or, my (least) favorite nightmare, when the technology exists for the tax authorities to figure out how much revenue your affiliate marketing websites are making- and knock on your door (from your IP address) one day looking for taxes, penalties and interest. Edited October 13, 2015 by impulse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elviajero Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 How can he have a Thai work permit for a company not located in Thailand? You can't which is why you can't work. Thats my point. Your job cannot be covered by a work permit therefore you are not considered as working, therefore should be left in peace. No, it's the opposite. If the job of work can't be covered by a work permit you can't work. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elviajero Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 What's with blog about cats??? Just an example to show how varied money making endeavours online are There are people that make millions simply recording themselves playing video games and telling jokes (Google Youtube user 'PewDiePie'). I can't see him being arrested and put on trial if he flies to Thailand for a 9 month trip, spending some of those American dollars on Thai goods and churning out a few more videos while on Thai soil. And how many of these guys earning millions are holed up in apartments staying off the radar. Irrelevant! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitsune Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 How can he have a Thai work permit for a company not located in Thailand? You can't which is why you can't work. Thats my point. Your job cannot be covered by a work permit therefore you are not considered as working, therefore should be left in peace. No, it's the opposite. If the job of work can't be covered by a work permit you can't work. I did my laundry this morning, shall I apply for a work permit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyj Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 I know this does not answer your question but why live in Thailand at your age? Sure, there are many good things about living here but it's a backwater. For 99% of people it's a place to retire not a place to build a career. Few companies will value the work you do here believing (not incorrectly) the standard and skill set are low. You will be trashing any chance you have and for a career and getting paid poorly for it. Stay in your home country or move to the USA (if you are in IT) and build your career, skills and income. You can always visit Thailand and plan for an early retirement. Don't waste your golden earning years in Thailand ... you will regret it later.In regards to IT, I would also suggest countries like NZ and Switzerland as good options if the US isnt an option for some reason, interesting tech sectors (albeit orders of magnitude smaller) and keen on migrants with IT skillsSent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oncearugge Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Kitsune A ridiculous comment which adds no value to the discussion. A poor attempt to justify the illegal workers who exist on tourist visas which clearly state that working is prohibited. Normal activities of daily living are not "work" in a legal sense! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elviajero Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 The Thai embassy in Rome has just announced the new METV. Two of the conditions (based on TV member translations) are: 6,000 euros in the bank (approx 240k thb). Proof of a job. And they are dropping the 2 and 3 entry TR's. IF conditions like that are imposed across the world it will have a big impact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jspill Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) The Thai embassy in Rome has just announced the new METV. Two of the conditions (based on TV member translations) are: 6,000 euros in the bank (approx 240k thb). Proof of a job. And they are dropping the 2 and 3 entry TR's. IF conditions like that are imposed across the world it will have a big impact. It's always been the case that in Vientiane you may asked to show 'proof of income'. Money coming in from overseas on a regular basis to prove one is not working in Thailand. Anyway the word 'income' there and 'job' on the Rome embassy website are most likely just synonymous with 'money in your account'. We also know consultates rarely get the he details right, or You're clutching at straws with nothing to go on other than 'working is working' in the Alien Labor act. These threads have been going on for years, and digital nomads are still here. We all know consulates' websites are less than reliable. The Singapore website doesn't mention anything like that: Edited October 13, 2015 by jspill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impulse Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Kitsune A ridiculous comment which adds no value to the discussion. A poor attempt to justify the illegal workers who exist on tourist visas which clearly state that working is prohibited. Normal activities of daily living are not "work" in a legal sense! Only because you are not educated. Life salary,where every work is considered as such and rewarded and as a way out of capitalism, has been for years supported by political movements and is seriously debated as a way to end poverty, exploitation and unemployment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Friot So how much did you pay yourself for doing your laundry, and more to the point, what does some disputed French academic theory have to do with a young fellow staying longer term in Thailand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitsune Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 The Thai embassy in Rome has just announced the new METV. Two of the conditions (based on TV member translations) are: 6,000 euros in the bank (approx 240k thb). Proof of a job. And they are dropping the 2 and 3 entry TR's. IF conditions like that are imposed across the world it will have a big impact. Southern Europe is full of migrants from Africa and Middle East and as consequence, Thai embassies have always been more restrictive there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gk10002000 Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 There is nothing in the Alien Working Act that exempts online work from requiring a WP. Those working online that continue to encourage others to do the same should try the following. On your next visa application write the reason for visa as 'Live in Thailand and work online'. Go to your local Department of Labour, inform them that you work online, and ask for a WP. If successful at obtaining both, or are told a WP isn't needed, please report back. The only reason online workers get away with it is because they do not disclose their activities, are an insignificant number and are probably way down on the authorities hit list. The time and cost of perusing these people is prohibitive alone. Forgive me if I put the burden of proof on the people telling me I'm a criminal instead, and don't go out of my way to prove a negative. You realise online income is usually passive, right? So it's slowly entering people's bank accounts without them doing anything. Income isn't linearly related to hours put in anymore, like in the ancestral realm of chisels, overalls and spades. Does anyone with a residual online income become a criminal when they set foot in Thailand? You don't seem to understand what residual income is. It is not running a website, maintaing a blog site, writing travel blogs, etc. Residual is getting royalties from book sales, from past roles in movies, perhaps from patent rights, or from one's investment portfolio. Of course throughout history I am sure many writers and authors vacationed in Thailand or other countries and wrote their books, novels, poems, maybe even contributed to articles in journals. Anyway, the more people push the limits of the tourist visas, when they clearly are not tourists, the more the chances of something happening that they don't want to have happen will. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitsune Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Kitsune A ridiculous comment which adds no value to the discussion. A poor attempt to justify the illegal workers who exist on tourist visas which clearly state that working is prohibited. Normal activities of daily living are not "work" in a legal sense! Only because you are not educated. Life salary,where every work is considered as such and rewarded and as a way out of capitalism, has been for years supported by political movements and is seriously debated as a way to end poverty, exploitation and unemployment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Friot So how much did you pay yourself for doing your laundry, and more to the point, what does some disputed French academic theory have to do with a young fellow staying longer term in Thailand? My point is that the concept of work is not as black and white as some posters might think. It's not just about who you work for or what you do and here they don't condemn you for working online YET, so lets leave the OP alone and get back to the actual topic: How to stay when you are not an old fart yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oncearugge Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) The Thai embassy in Rome has just announced the new METV. Two of the conditions (based on TV member translations) are: 6,000 euros in the bank (approx 240k thb). Proof of a job. And they are dropping the 2 and 3 entry TR's. IF conditions like that are imposed across the world it will have a big impact. It's always been the case that in Vientiane you may asked to show 'proof of income'. Money coming in from overseas on a regular basis to prove one is not working in Thailand. Anyway the word 'income' there and 'job' on the Rome embassy website are most likely just synonymous with 'money in your account'. We also know consultates rarely get the he details right, or You're clutching at straws with nothing to go on other than 'working is working' in the Alien Labor act. These threads have been going on for years, and digital nomads are still here. We all know consulates' websites are less than reliable. The Singapore website doesn't mention anything like that: You should check Singapore's requirements more carefully ! "Multiple-Entry Tourist Visa: $8,000 per person (6 months of financial statements)" http://www.thaiembassy.sg/visa-matters-/-consular/visa-requirements/tourist-visa : > ) Edit to include link Edited October 13, 2015 by oncearugge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jspill Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 There is nothing in the Alien Working Act that exempts online work from requiring a WP. Those working online that continue to encourage others to do the same should try the following. On your next visa application write the reason for visa as 'Live in Thailand and work online'. Go to your local Department of Labour, inform them that you work online, and ask for a WP. If successful at obtaining both, or are told a WP isn't needed, please report back. The only reason online workers get away with it is because they do not disclose their activities, are an insignificant number and are probably way down on the authorities hit list. The time and cost of perusing these people is prohibitive alone. Forgive me if I put the burden of proof on the people telling me I'm a criminal instead, and don't go out of my way to prove a negative. You realise online income is usually passive, right? So it's slowly entering people's bank accounts without them doing anything. Income isn't linearly related to hours put in anymore, like in the ancestral realm of chisels, overalls and spades. Does anyone with a residual online income become a criminal when they set foot in Thailand? You don't seem to understand what residual income is. It is not running a website, maintaing a blog site, writing travel blogs, etc. Residual is getting royalties from book sales, from past roles in movies, perhaps from patent rights, or from one's investment portfolio. Of course throughout history I am sure many writers and authors vacationed in Thailand or other countries and wrote their books, novels, poems, maybe even contributed to articles in journals. Anyway, the more people push the limits of the tourist visas, when they clearly are not tourists, the more the chances of something happening that they don't want to have happen will. You know ebooks can be sold online on Amazon, and you receive recurring royalties? And these 'ebooks' are often the main product on a travel blog? Plus other websites can promote your blog too for an affiliate commission, and send you recurring royalties. What internet marketers do fits the general definition below just fine. It's a synonym of 'passive' and there are dozens of websites about making passive income online, one called 'smartpassiveincome', is the most well-known one. Fine it's used for investments too, words can be flexible. You guys really are grabbing at anything you can here because you have no concrete evidence for working online actually being illegal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jspill Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 You should check Singapore's requirements more carefully ! "Multiple-Entry Tourist Visa: $8,000 per person (6 months of financial statements)" http://www.thaiembassy.sg/visa-matters-/-consular/visa-requirements/tourist-visa : > ) Edit to include link So they want to see money, like Vientiane has for years? What does that have to do with 'proof of a job' or your hypothesis that people who work for western companies won't be allowed to get this visa and do some work remotely from Thailand while they're here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drees Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 The elite visa which costs 500,000 thb for 5 years. You shouldn't have a problem getting another tourist visa from your home country or another country neighbouring Thailand. You won't be refused entry if holding a TR. Set up a company so you can have a non 'B' visa and WP. There are companies that will, for a fee, employ you and organise a work permit. (sorry I don't know much about them other than they are expensive) Unfortunately Thailand doesn't want people your age living and working here illegally. You misunderstand! The "digital nomads" live in 5* hotels , use the "gratis" Wi FI and pay tax on their huge incomes! They also contribute to the economy of the local mobile noodle stall ! Actually there are quite some digital nomads that make far more as the old guys, there are also many old guys that live of a meager pension contributing almost nothing to the country. But as with all groups there are those who make only a bit of money and those that are successful. The older guys don't like the younger crowd as they don't have to pay for the girls. As usual complete tripe Actually I don't understand it also. Why do some (a lot) of the old guys not like it when young guys have found a way to live in Thailand? Is it some kind of jeloussy thing, because they couldn't live her when they were young? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elviajero Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 The Thai embassy in Rome has just announced the new METV. Two of the conditions (based on TV member translations) are: 6,000 euros in the bank (approx 240k thb). Proof of a job. And they are dropping the 2 and 3 entry TR's. IF conditions like that are imposed across the world it will have a big impact. It's always been the case that in Vientiane you may asked to show 'proof of income'. Money coming in from overseas on a regular basis to prove one is not working in Thailand. Anyway the word 'income' there and 'job' on the Rome embassy website are most likely just synonymous with 'money in your account'. You're clutching at straws with nothing to go on other than 'working is working' in the Alien Labor act. These threads have been going on for years, and digital nomads are still here. We will know soon enough, but I doubt too many serial TR applicants would be able to comply with both of those conditions if applied locally to Thailand. You're the one clutching at straws by interpreting the Alien Working act with bias and probably ignoring the Immigration act. I've worked here online for years, and for years I thought I was legal, but even though it suits me to follow your rationale I can't because I know the facts direct from the authorities in Thailand which is all that count. So I got legal. What you do is your choice. IMO Thailand will be making it harder and harder over coming years to live here on TR's long term without proof of income and/or money in the bank, because they don't want foreigners working here without appropriate permission, and that includes online workers who seem to think their ability to work remotely somehow excludes them from the law. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwdrwdrwd Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) I know this does not answer your question but why live in Thailand at your age? Sure, there are many good things about living here but it's a backwater. For 99% of people it's a place to retire not a place to build a career. Few companies will value the work you do here believing (not incorrectly) the standard and skill set are low. You will be trashing any chance you have and for a career and getting paid poorly for it. Stay in your home country or move to the USA (if you are in IT) and build your career, skills and income. You can always visit Thailand and plan for an early retirement. Don't waste your golden earning years in Thailand ... you will regret it later. He's not talking about working for a company here, but about earning income online from outside of Thailand. Not sure what the OP does, but for a skilled senior software engineer working remotely, 100k US is easy, and it's quite feasible to double that if you're an extremely strong dev. It can also be entirely tax free, depending on the tax rules of your country of citizenship and the location of your clients. And you can still get negotiate equity deals, again tax free. For young individuals that can earn income online, and that are highly skilled, it is quite possible for them to be MUCH better off by living in Thailand, to enjoy a far greater standard of living throughout their earning years, and to have the ability to retire to a great self-funded tax free pension at an early age. Edited October 13, 2015 by rwdrwdrwd 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitsune Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 You should check Singapore's requirements more carefully ! "Multiple-Entry Tourist Visa: $8,000 per person (6 months of financial statements)" http://www.thaiembassy.sg/visa-matters-/-consular/visa-requirements/tourist-visa : > ) Edit to include link So they want to see money, like Vientiane has for years? What does that have to do with 'proof of a job' or your hypothesis that people who work for western companies won't be allowed to get this visa and do some work remotely from Thailand while they're here? No he's just gets excited every time a screw is tightened on visa runners. Some people just like spending their days scaring people and rejoicing at others people demise. Sad really... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwdrwdrwd Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) Certain members of staff in Thai consulates are unfriendly, certain countries especially (e.g. Singapore). Laos is usually the friendliest, I'm surprised you were told that there. Or was it at the border on the way back in? Anyway I'd just chalk it up to that member of staff having a bad day, there's no official limit yet to back to back tourist visas one can obtain from Laos. Here's all the Thaivisa moderators confirming that - http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/788273-is-there-any-limit-on-back-to-back-tourist-visas/ After 4 or so in a row they ask for proof of funds to show you're not working in the country at some cash in hand job, if you just show proof of funds coming in from abroad you're fine. Full details on that - http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/715011-red-stamp-in-vientiane-advice-needed/ Or you can 'break the chain' of back to back visas by going to Savannakhet, in your position I'd do that. Get a visa from the Thai consulate in your home country first though, you should have zero issues. Renewing your passport for a fresh one also helps, all those one page tourist visa stickers fill it up fast anyway. You get a number of months of 'time left' added on if it's not expired yet, e.g. 9 months for UK passports. Anyway yeah I'd ignore that one off hand comment from one member of staff, get a triple entry visa in my home country, fly in, then go for double entries in Savannakhet after that point. If there was a defined 'abuse' point for tourist visas it hasn't been written into law yet, I don't feel guilty about staying here on tourist visas out of some imagined notion of 'abuse' - it that existed why isn't it clearly stated on every consulate website. Some have stayed for over a decade on tourist visas. There's also the Thailand Elite program which has stood the test of time and is a good option if you're sure you'll be here 5 years, you'll recoup most of the costs by not needing to do border runs. With regards to working you can work online, nothing in the Alien Labor act says it's illegal to freelance remotely online, have a blog, or anything like that. It's not taking jobs away from Thais. That's what I do, I'm also in my 20s and have been here 6 years, I know many other digital nomads in their 20-30s who live here long term too. There's never been an arrest for working online in Thailand, or anywhere in the world, the above scaremongering about being arrested leaves out the fact it was work with a physical presence (tour guide, bartender etc.) Just don't do that and it's fine. How incorrect can you be ? YOU are in Thailand and YOU are working, be it remotely or not - that is illegal without the correct visa and work permit. Tell the online teachers that were arrested and deported from Chaing Mai that there have never been any arrests ! They were not arrested for 'working online', they were arrested in an ad hoc office set up by an business that was advertising jobs for teachers in Thailand, that was paying said teachers in baht, in Thailand. Where did you get the information that they were deported anyway, because that's not what I heard.. Edited October 13, 2015 by rwdrwdrwd 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jspill Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 You're the one clutching at straws by interpreting the Alien Working act with bias and probably ignoring the Immigration act. I've worked here online for years, and for years I thought I was legal, but even though it suits me to follow your rationale I can't because I know the facts direct from the authorities in Thailand which is all that count. And you have these facts in some written form, or? I've read the immigration act and the criteria for persona non grata - http://www.thaivisa.com/392-0.html In fact from that link, people who are persona non grata include: 2. Those who have no appropriate means of earning a living once they have entered the Kingdom. 3. Those who, having entered the Kingdom to take up employment as laborers or practice other forms of manual work that require no special skill or training Those two points seem to imply to me that I'm ok as long as I support myself and don't take jobs from Thais in the process. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.png.3b3332cc2256ad0edbc2fe9404feeef0.png)
Recommended Posts