Questions from a digital nomad

[theguyfromanotherforum]

The most stupid companies that do it in Chiang Mai are some folks from Sweden, Norway and Denmark.

The companies advertise it on Adwords openly and they work from home full-time on a tour visa and those guys in the office charge the European companies 1200-1500 Euros per worker and the Digital Nomad gets around 700-900 Euros often cash on the hand.

I am aware of those companies, including the name, addresses and phone numbers but I would never come on the idea to report them.

As for the little Digital Nomad from Starbucks that make a few bugs from Adsense or Admob, I think they are ok as long they don't go out in the open.

This makes absolutely no sense financially. In Europe the 1200 salary would be tax expense and in Thailand it's just a loss. Move to a third world country to save 500 a month (likely a lot less because of tax breaks). Either they pay a lot more in Europe or something is missing.

[jspill]

It's fairly obvious the visa changes are aimed at tackling illegal workers, and you could go as far as to say the various crackdowns in Chiang Mai atm are because these idiots flaunt working illegally

LOL, sure, nothing to do with Vientiane saying they can't verify foreign bank statements, so doing it in home country consulates would be easier. Or ASEAN. Or actual criminals, drug dealers, etc. Or the military government. Or even the 9000 overstayers (mostly from developing countries) that were recently rounded up.

No, no, it's those few thousand Amazon affiliate site builders from rich western nations, that'll be it.

What Chiang Mai crackdown? Enforcing nightclub closing times? Ok, nothing to do with the recent death in Zoe club a few months ago, right.

Edited November 19, 2015 by jspill

[Cinderella Man]

Google 'digital nomad summit Chiang Mai' - there've been huge public events like that, where thousands of digital nomads got together, not under the radar at all. Last one was in February. Entire websites and youtube videos about it.

To me that suggests it isn't a legal issue. Or that Thailand has no interest in pursuing them whatsoever. Which makes sense, they're not harming anyone.

I never claimed that Digital Nomads are under the radar. Quite the opposite, they are not under the radar when they should be. Conferences aren't considered work in even the strictest countries, so let's write that example off.

We know it's not legal because the law says so. We know it's not enforced because otherwise people would be getting deported as we speak.

The trend however is more towards limiting tourist visa abuse rather than tackling illegal-workers directly. It's more likely that spending more than 6 months in Thailand will just not be possible in the future without overstaying, which is enforced.

A year ago? There was a raid into co-working space in Chiang Mai. But Immi let everyone go, said it's ok if you work online... we thought you are employees of this business

[joebloggs1234]

It's fairly obvious the visa changes are aimed at tackling illegal workers, and you could go as far as to say the various crackdowns in Chiang Mai atm are because these idiots flaunt working illegally

LOL, sure, nothing to do with Vientiane saying they can't verify foreign bank statements, so doing it in home country consulates would be easier. Or ASEAN. Or actual criminals, drug dealers, etc. Or the military government. Or even the 9000 overstayers (mostly from developing countries) that were recently rounded up.

No, no, it's those few thousand Amazon affiliate site builders from rich western nations, that'll be it.

What Chiang Mai crackdown? Enforcing nightclub closing times? Ok, nothing to do with the recent death in Zoe club a few months ago, right.

It's a whole host of things, no question, but look at the visa requirements. Criminals, drug dealers etc. no problem skirting the METV in some way I'd say. Overstayers have no effect on the METV, if they overstay then it doesn't really matter about visas. Thailand has had those for decades, why the change now? It affects those coming here and working on the sly more than anyone else, those without big sums in the bank. & nobody died in Zoe's AFAIK, just a rumor. I would have thought if a foreigner got beaten to death here it'd make the news somewhere instead of just Chinese whispers on social media.

Whatever the reasons, the digital nomad rubbish certainly hasn't helped the situation.

[makescents]

"work" means engaging in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits

http://wp.doe.go.th/wp/images/law/4/aliens_act.pdf

The definition simply says that 'work' is 'work', and it's still 'work' regardless of money/benefits. It is self referential and does not meet the basic standards of a definition since it doesn't define what 'work' is. Given this, it is the antithesis of 'crystal clear'.

Whilst it may be your interpretation, the law does not say that "anything is work unless we say it isn't". If it did say that, then we indeed end up in a position where breathing (or if we wish to be more realistic, sending an email, reading a book, or doing some exercise) must be work, since it is not expressly excluded by any legislation and meets the criteria of 'exerting energy'.

I agree that activities that have been expressly mentioned as not included by the relevant authorities can be considered excluded, but it does not logically follow that any other activity whatsoever therefore must be included. Only 'work' is included but we do not know, logically, what 'work' means for the purpose of legislation - we can only hypothesise as to how a judge would interpret any given activity.

Neither is it true that if they 'made it legal' then digital nomads would 'become liable to income tax' - Clarification of legality has have no impact upon tax liability - it is already the case that people with foreign income are liable to Thai income tax, as with people who are employed in country. For any Thai tax resident, Thai or foreign, foreign income is subject to Thai income tax if remitted to Thailand in the year earned, and zero rated if remitted to the country in a subsequent tax year.

You'll notice in legal documents they tend not to define every word as it would make the document exponentially long. That's also an unofficial translation. Neither of these points refute yours but I'm just putting that on the record.

"work" means engaging in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits

You may think that is open to interpretation. I don't however. But as you said - case law clarifies these things...

You mentioned emailing etc. Well that was originally considered under the act which is why the Labour department released guidelines (http://www.naritlaw.com/Resources/New%20Foreign%20Workers%20Act%20Interpretation_NARITLAW.pdf) (original - http://web.krisdika.go.th/data/comment/comment2/2556/c2_0152_2556.pdf) which liberalise what it considers work. These guidelines almost match the B1/B2 visa exemptions. These guidelines contain nothing on remote work.

It's funny because the above document explicitly states that the organizers of an Nomad event, like the one mentioned by another poster previously, are working and therefore require permits. These are just guidelines however...

I will concede your point on taxes. Even under a tourist visa many foreigners are liable for taxes. My point, which I fudged somewhat, was that they are more likely to collect said taxes if some sort of framework for remote working appears.

[makescents]

A year ago? There was a raid into co-working space in Chiang Mai. But Immi let everyone go, said it's ok if you work online... we thought you are employees of this business

There were also a bunch of English teachers that got deported for teaching English online (http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/794216-17-foreign-english-teachers-arrested-in-chiang-mai-for-working-illegally/).

Again not taking jobs away from the locals, teaching English to folks in China...

The cops don't make the law - they just enforce it. They choose where and when. They have no power to change the law.

[jspill]

There were also a bunch of English teachers that got deported for teaching English online (http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/794216-17-foreign-english-teachers-arrested-in-chiang-mai-for-working-illegally/).

As was well discussed in that thread at the time, they were employed by a Thai company, and paid in THB. That's about as diametrically opposed to 'digital nomad' as it gets. I'm not employed by a Thai company, nor am I paid in THB.

That company also had tax issues which is why it attracted police attention in the first place, then when they turned up the teachers were on the workplace premises at desks for their 9 to 5, again hardly the action of digital nomads. I have no work ties to any resident entity in Thailand.

The guys were brought in for brief questioning then released the same day, the issue was with the employer's tax records.

Nice try though.

I get the feeling many Thaivisa posters are simply rubbed the wrong way by these young independent guys travelling the world. Instead of slaving away in a 'proper job' like they had to.

Edited November 19, 2015 by jspill

[makescents]

As was well discussed in that thread at the time, they were employed by a Thai company, and paid in THB. That's about as diametrically opposed to 'digital nomad' as it gets. I'm not employed by a Thai company, nor am I paid in THB.

It's still working in Thailand which was the violation. Company or no company, baht or no baht. They were processed Mae Ping police station for working without a permit. Do you think if the Boys in Brown gave a toss if there was a company incorporated?

The guys were brought in for brief questioning then released the same day, the issue was with the employer's tax records.

Got a link to the follow up story? I was not able to find anything...

I get the feeling many Thaivisa posters are simply rubbed the wrong way by these young independent guys travelling the world. Instead of slaving away in a 'proper job' like they had to.

Maybe I'm a Digital Nomad in Thailand and don't want people ruining the free-ride.

As I've said before - I don't mind people doing this. I just take issue when they argue they are on the right side of the law, promote breaking the law to others or advertise they are breaking the law through their blog.

[JLCrab]

<snip>

< snip >

I get the feeling many Thaivisa posters are simply rubbed the wrong way by these young independent guys travelling the world. Instead of slaving away in a 'proper job' like they had to.

I had an unconventional lifestyle with only few years of a 'proper job' and I did travel the world or at least Asia. My brother's second wife wanted their son to stay away from me because she thought I might be a bad influence on him. He is now finishing his PhD in computer science and has already worked on cryptographics and multiple video drone coordination for the US government/NSA.

[jspill]

Got a link to the follow up story? I was not able to find anything...

There's rarely a follow up news story about people being released.

I recall some guys who knew the teachers personally posted in the largest digital nomad Facebook group about it.

Maybe I'm a Digital Nomad in Thailand and don't want people ruining the free-ride.

As I've said before - I don't mind people doing this. I just take issue when they argue they are on the right side of the law, promote breaking the law to others or advertise they are breaking the law through their blog.

Maybe so - I can agree with not shouting it from the rooftops.

I've also come across a few guys who argue for it being 100% illegal because they're offering dodgy business visa services, or affiliating for Iglu type companies.

You can't blame people for debating that they're not doing anything wrong on forums, the weight of evidence is on their side. All you have is the 'work is working' line, they have a bunch of statements from Thai sources which I'll link in the next post, and the fact that no one's ever been prosecuted for being a digital nomad.

So even if it's illegal there's zero enforcement and it's kind of akin to saying people shouldn't write about prostitution on blogs like Stickman in case the authorities suddenly start rounding up expats who service sex workers... that's technically not legal either.

[jspill]

If you are a ‘digital nomad’ running your own business on the internet, the immigration office says you can do this on a tourist visa.

http://www.chiangmaicitylife.com/news/new-visa-rules-explained/

Also on that page - 'This does not apply to those who work abroad or offshore' - referring to the disallowing of back to back visa waivers being a measure to stop illegal workers. One example of visa changes not being about digital nomads whatsoever, they're about people that actually work for resident entities in Thailand, illegal tour guides and so on.

He added that for offshore workers who work outside the country for several months and then return regularly, but also leave and stay out for a period of time, will have no issue leaving and re-entering the country. However, he said that if they want to stay longer than a month they can get a tourist visa or they can extend their stay by 7 days in the country. This also applies to those who travel to Thailand regularly but also go home regularly. He did confirm that those entering Thailand on a 30 day visa exempt entry can only extend for 7 days in Thailand; a tourist visa can extend for 30 days.

He noted that online work for overseas companies that pay overseas is not prohibited but that the person will need to get a visa to stay longer, currently there is no new visa for these kinds of people.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/754414-immigration-clarifies-new-regulations-for-foreigners-in-chiang-mai/

I know those don't 100% prove anything either - Thaivisa posters like to say those quotes were 'taken out of context' etc.

[JLCrab]

From the report linked above: If you are a ‘digital nomad’ running your own business on the internet, the immigration office says you can do this on a tourist visa.

That's what Immigration says. MFA has always had some variation on the Tourist Visa applications that you must declare your purpose of visit and -- at least on the Thai Embassy Washington, DC, form -- that you declare that you will engage in no occupation or profession while in The Kingdom.

So MFA may soon be having the last word as you might soon not be able to get a Tourist Visa as readily as before for the above purpose.

[jspill]

you declare that you will engage in no occupation or profession while in The Kingdom.

Yes and it's never been clarified whether working remotely for an offshore company, in a foreign currency, is considered having an occupation in Thailand or not.

Those declarations say 'employment prohibited' that sounds to me like having a Thai employer but just IMO of course.

Anyone totally unbiased in this debate (neither of the extremes, bitter old fart or blogger peddling $39.99 courses on how to live and work in Thailand) would conclude it's a grey area.

Edited November 20, 2015 by jspill

[JLCrab]

Maybe so, but there really was no reason that -- in instituting the METV -- that MFA had to eliminate the double-entry visa obtainable at a neighboring country of convenience. So even though it may be a grey area, it may also become moot because you soon might not be able to get a tourist visa that would allow you to stay long-term in Thailand and engage in a grey area endeavors while on a tourist visa.

... or more bluntly, if you can't get a tourist visa, what good does it do to debate what work you can or cannot do on a tourist visa.

Edited November 20, 2015 by JLCrab

[elviajero]

Maybe I'm a Digital Nomad in Thailand and don't want people ruining the free-ride.

As I've said before - I don't mind people doing this. I just take issue when they argue they are on the right side of the law, promote breaking the law to others or advertise they are breaking the law through their blog.

Maybe so - I can agree with not shouting it from the rooftops.

I've also come across a few guys who argue for it being 100% illegal because they're offering dodgy business visa services, or affiliating for Iglu type companies.

You can't blame people for debating that they're not doing anything wrong on forums, the weight of evidence is on their side. All you have is the 'work is working' line, they have a bunch of statements from Thai sources which I'll link in the next post, and the fact that no one's ever been prosecuted for being a digital nomad.

So even if it's illegal there's zero enforcement and it's kind of akin to saying people shouldn't write about prostitution on blogs like Stickman in case the authorities suddenly start rounding up expats who service sex workers... that's technically not legal either.

IMO DN's and other remote workers are shooting themselves in the foot with Facebook pages, seminars etc. The reason they are tolerated for now is because of the low numbers and low profile. The more visible it becomes the sooner Thai authorities will have to make a decision. I don't think it's that straightforward for Thailand to legalise remote workers, therefore, if pushed they would likely just start enforcing the existing law.

The weight of evidence is not on the side of DN's regarding the legality but only that the work is tolerated. Any remote worker is working by any definition. No one disputes the fact that people aren't being pursued and prosecuted but that doesn't mean it's legal.

The law is crystal clear regarding working. No visa holder can work in Thailand without permission. Until that changes remote work is illegal regardless of the fact that authorities tolerate it.

If it were legal the debate could be ended by a simple announcement by TIB/DOL. You are constantly trying to justify the legality. Most rational unbiased remote workers accept the reality and hope that the law is eventually changed in their favour.

[jspill]

^ And you're constantly trying to say it's illegal

I think I was clear that my position is that it's a grey area and a non-issue. Or 'not illegal'. I don't think I ever said it's 100% legal.

People were telling me it's about to be cracked down on back in 2010, I've been on this forum a lot longer than you, this is like the 15th digital nomad thread I've had this back and forth in.

If something eventually happens - change takes a long time in Thailand - I don't think it'll be to start imprisoning a bunch of western expats in Chiang Mai co working spaces. They'll just say ok guys from now on get a different visa type. At worst a 2000 Baht fine, which is pocket change.

[JLCrab]

^ And you're constantly trying to say it's illegal

I think I was clear that my position is that it's a grey area and a non-issue. Or 'not illegal'. I don't think I ever said it's 100% legal.

People were telling me it's about to be cracked down on back in 2010, I've been on this forum a lot longer than you, this is like the 15th digital nomad thread I've had this back and forth in.

If something eventually happens - change takes a long time in Thailand - I don't think it'll be to start imprisoning a bunch of western expats in Chiang Mai co working spaces. They'll just say ok guys from now on get a different visa type. At worst a 2000 Baht fine, which is pocket change.

I agree. The law is vague because IMHO the law is purposefully vague as to what is work. That is so, if there were ever reason to prosecute someone for labor violations (and I don't mean the individual traveler) there would not be endless discussions as to what constitutes work. Work is what we say it is.

I also agree that these topics have been repeatedly discussed but usually from the perspective of Labor and Immigration. It seems that now MFA has joined in. They have eliminated the double entry tourist visa. If one wants to stay on singles that may be fine at least for now.