Meditation Center with no bowing or chanting?

[Greeen]

I'm not into the Thai style of bowing down three times to show respect to a statue or a teacher

or when you have to bring so many flowers or candles for an opening ceremony of a retreat

Do you guys know of anywhere where they don't do these sorts of things or somewhere where they at least make it optional?

I'm not interested in Goenka retreats or Suan Mokk, somewhere in the Mahasi style would be ideal

I think the Buddha said that people can pay him respect by practicing the teaching and not by bringing him flowers etc etc...

[Brucenkhamen]

Most of the Burmese centres don't expect foreign meditators to get involved in this, there are some in Malaysia if you don't want to go to Myanmar.

Insight meditation centres in the West don't have it.

In Thailand though it's usually expected to some degree the only place I can think of that doesn't have it is Wat Kow Tahm.

[Greeen]

Most of the Burmese centres don't expect foreign meditators to get involved in this, there are some in Malaysia if you don't want to go to Myanmar.

Insight meditation centres in the West don't have it.

In Thailand though it's usually expected to some degree the only place I can think of that doesn't have it is Wat Kow Tahm.

I've heard of Wat Koh Tahm, but it's one of those places that says you can smile at people during the retreat, this was happening at Suan Mokk and it's not my style either as it's a distraction

Do you have the names of the places in Malaysia?

[RichCor]

If you want to travel to the opposite end of the spectrum, you might be interested in what visually strikes me to be the capitalist version of Buddhism, draped in western materialistic trapping:

Thanyapura Mind Centre in Phuket

Comparatively, after seeing these centers for foreigners, I find I now prefer hand picking a simple bouquet of flowers from the grounds and including a couple of candles for an offering when reciting the 10 precepts at an opening ceremony.

And when I was practicing in Myanmar, they didn't require the foreign attendees to bow or chant ...only sit and listen to it for a few hours when honored dignitaries were visiting (to 'pack' the house). Makes for an interesting meditation environment, as I just keep my eyes closed and practiced, observing.

[DogNo1]

Try eckharttolletv. You won't have to go to ANY temple.

[orchis]

Apart from individuals bowing I never saw any 'organised' bowing at WSM, nor did I feel any invitation or pressure to do so. It's also very easy to skip the chanting there.

Edited December 2, 2015 by orchis

[Greeen]

Apart from individuals bowing I never saw any 'organised' bowing at WSM, nor did I feel any invitation or pressure to do so. It's also very easy to skip the chanting there.

I agree there was no bowing at WSM, and yes the chanting is optional and Ajarn Poh and Ajarn Meddi are amazingly compassionate beings!

but it's beginner's retreat so not for me, I'm looking for somewhere quieter...

[Greeen]

Try eckharttolletv. You won't have to go to ANY temple.

Yes, I should just find a quiet place to practice by myself, I don't need to go to a temple

[Brucenkhamen]

Do you have the names of the places in Malaysia?

http://www.mbmcmalaysia.org/ They have a bit of chanting before the meals and at the end of the day but that's about it.

http://www.sasanarakkha.org/ I've heard good things about this place but don't know if it meets your citeria.

http://www.buddhanet.info/wbd/country.php?country_id=48 You might find something suitable here.

[Greeen]

Do you have the names of the places in Malaysia?

http://www.mbmcmalaysia.org/ They have a bit of chanting before the meals and at the end of the day but that's about it.

http://www.sasanarakkha.org/ I've heard good things about this place but don't know if it meets your citeria.

http://www.buddhanet.info/wbd/country.php?country_id=48 You might find something suitable here.

Thank you BrucenKhamen, I will check them out

[weary]

Most of the Burmese centres don't expect foreign meditators to get involved in this, there are some in Malaysia if you don't want to go to Myanmar.

Insight meditation centres in the West don't have it.

In Thailand though it's usually expected to some degree the only place I can think of that doesn't have it is Wat Kow Tahm.

I've heard of Wat Koh Tahm, but it's one of those places that says you can smile at people during the retreat, this was happening at Suan Mokk and it's not my style either as it's a distraction

Do you have the names of the places in Malaysia?

Have you tried to experiment with what happens when you don't feed your preferences? 'My style' risks leading in the wrong direction if you are shooting for stream entry.

[Greeen]

Most of the Burmese centres don't expect foreign meditators to get involved in this, there are some in Malaysia if you don't want to go to Myanmar.

Insight meditation centres in the West don't have it.

In Thailand though it's usually expected to some degree the only place I can think of that doesn't have it is Wat Kow Tahm.

I've heard of Wat Koh Tahm, but it's one of those places that says you can smile at people during the retreat, this was happening at Suan Mokk and it's not my style either as it's a distraction

Do you have the names of the places in Malaysia?

Have you tried to experiment with what happens when you don't feed your preferences? 'My style' risks leading in the wrong direction if you are shooting for stream entry.

I'm still a beginner so have lots to learn before stream entry, but I'm just starting to understand about liking and disliking amongst other things and how it affects my practice

As I establish my practice and gain more wisdom the things that affect me now will pass away

I'm going to Malaysia to sit next

[rockyysdt]

Out of interest G, what culture, background, nationality are you from.

I was like you regarding bowing and flower giving.

There is a very subtle reason for it which escapes many Westerners.

[Greeen]

Out of interest G, what culture, background, nationality are you from.

I was like you regarding bowing and flower giving.

There is a very subtle reason for it which escapes many Westerners.

I'm a westerner, with a background in Goenka...

I was told by one thai center that if I bowed and chanted that I would gain confidence in the Buddha and it would lessen my ego...

I told them that I already had confidence in the Buddha through practice and insight...

[rockyysdt]

That is a good beginning.

However in terms of the ultimate goal our progress might be an inch towards a round the world journey.

Most Westerners are "I" centric.

Even their reasons for practice are anchored in the self.

This is normal. It is of the conditioned and the impermanent.

The teaching is to diminish the self.

Focusing outward to others through Metta, Karuna, Mudita, & Upeckka facilitates the diminishing of Ego.

Thus we may bow.

Good luck with your journey.

Edited December 25, 2015 by rockyysdt

[VincentRJ]

That is a good beginning.

However in terms of the ultimate goal our progress might be an inch towards a round the world journey.

Most Westerners are "I" centric.

Even their reasons for practice are anchored in the self.

This is normal. It is of the conditioned and the impermanent.

The teaching is to diminish the self.

Focusing outward to others through Metta, Karuna, Mudita, & Upeckka facilitates the diminishing of Ego.

Thus we may bow.

Good luck with your journey.

Hi Rocky,

Applying a bit of rationality and logic to this situation, I can't help getting the impression that the act of bowing is associated with ego, and is itself a recognition of different degrees of social status.

The person who bows is in effect declaring that he recognizes that the person to whom he is bowing, or maybe the concept represented by a statue, is superior and/or of a higher order than himself.

That's fine, but why the necessity to display the fact in public? Isn't that a type of 'showing off', or a demonstration of how humble, or pure in spirit, one is?

The other side of the equation, which disturbs me a bit, is the likelihood that those living monks or abbots who are frequently 'bowed to', might get the impressions they are more loved and more wonderful and more enlightened than they actually are. Being 'bowed to' might tend to inflate the ego.

I think, because of my great sense of compassion, I might prefer not to bow to someone in case I accidentally inflated the recipient's ego.

[rockyysdt]

Hi Vincent.

Until we become quite advanced in our practice/experience we all begin with massive Ego.

Some nationalities more than others.

If a person misuses a gesture (the one receiving the bow) that is his/her Kharma.

There are several meanings of the word "Bow".

The one I think is most applicable is "thanks, respect", not "submit, worship, subdue".

Think of bowing to a teacher as showing respect for the gift (teaching) they offer.

Bowing allows one to focus outwards away from the Self.

It's not ideal but to one who is "conditioned and impermanent" it's a beginning.

Isn't modifying ones behavior for fear of what others might think a relinquishment of ones freedom?

Wouldn't this lead to rigidity and external control?

Edited December 29, 2015 by rockyysdt

[VincentRJ]

Rocky,

I think it boils down to cultural conditioning. Thai people are usually brought up to bow and wai. It's second nature.

In the West we tend to bow only to Kings, or to an appreciative audience if we are an actor or performer. To adopt another form of conditioned behaviour, when on the path to enlightenment, doesn't seem quite right if one's goal is to free oneself from all conditioning.

I'm not sure what you are implying when you write, "Isn't modifying ones behavior for fear of what others might think a relinquishment of ones freedom? Wouldn't this lead to rigidity and external control?"

Are you suggesting that a person who is not accustomed to bowing might feel pressured by other people's opinions, to bow when in an environment where bowing is customary, and that such changes in behaviour could lead to rigidity and external control?

I tend to think, when living in a foreign culture, one adopts certain cultural practices in order not to appear rude and unfriendly and perhaps disadvantage oneself as a result. It's not so much a 'fear' of what others might think but more of a sensible and compassionate awareness of not wanting to unnecessarily and unproductively offend others.

Anyway, may you have an Enlightened New Year, Rocky.

[rockyysdt]

Thanks V.

You are correct.

I'd add, fearing to bow and discarding such a gesture is also being controlled.

It all comes down to intention.

Have rewarding New Year.

A time to refocus on commitment to practice.

Edited January 1, 2016 by rockyysdt

[only1]

The 3 hours meditation class for beginners which is free in Wat Mahathat needs no chanting or bowing.