Why The War? When Did It Start?

[gburns57au]

treat a woman as an equal....

Then there is no war

[ZZZ]

Asian women have a very long history of being in charge and run things, they are way ahead the western women when it comes to this. Many Asian countries have had one or several heads of state, there are much more women entrepreneurs and business people in Asia than in the west and women in Asia usually have the final, if not all, say when it comes to home and family.

Women in the west had really no say in anything until they were needed in the industry and work life, especially after the world wars when they took over a lot of the work previously done by men who then were out fighting.

Asian women get what they want and run their homes or businesses as women being women and are proud of that.

Western women, lacking the long history of having power, try to run things like men.

Men are always on guard when it comes to power and feel threatened when they are challenged by other men or women acting like men.

When challenged by a woman acting like a woman the threat is not there anymore, any woman can get any man to do just about anything but try to do it as a man and she will run into trouble and the war will start.

[Boo]

When I go about my business I don't "act like a man". I act like me doing business. IF that is threatening to some men then that is entirely their problem as I AM a women & act like a women. I don't need to act like a man to get things done in business but then again, I don't need to flatter or massage egos to get anything done either. If I want something done at work I ask, as a professional person to another professional person.

[fruittbatt]

Asian women have a very long history of being in charge and run things, they are way ahead the western women when it comes to this. Many Asian countries have had one or several heads of state, there are much more women entrepreneurs and business people in Asia than in the west and women in Asia usually have the final, if not all, say when it comes to home and family.

Women in the west had really no say in anything until they were needed in the industry and work life, especially after the world wars when they took over a lot of the work previously done by men who then were out fighting.

Asian women get what they want and run their homes or businesses as women being women and are proud of that.

Western women, lacking the long history of having power, try to run things like men.

Men are always on guard when it comes to power and feel threatened when they are challenged by other men or women acting like men.

When challenged by a woman acting like a woman the threat is not there anymore, any woman can get any man to do just about anything but try to do it as a man and she will run into trouble and the war will start.

This is a very thought-provoking argument, but I don't completely agree with you....

The women who have become political leaders in South East Asia in the last 20 yrs (SuuKyi, Gloria Arroyo, Megawati Soekarno Putri et al) all had male relatives or husbands' reputations and influence to put them at the top of the ladder.

Nor are most Thai businesswomen or entrepreneurs at the top of the tree: their male counterparts are generally much wealthier and have far more extensive networks of client-patron relations and powerful friends than any "jao mees" (godmothers).

I agree that small business and commerce have certainly been a source of influence and income for many Asian women, and that historically most Western women did not engage in trade or commerce until after the Industrial Revolution.

But is there an essentially "feminine" way of thinking and doing, which Western women lack, and Asian women possess? I think any such stereotype is pure romanticism. Thai men and women seem to do business in much the same ways from my observations and experience. In the domestic sphere, I notice that Thai women and Western women mostly adopt the same roles of wife, mother, main child-carer, cook, cleaner, and part or full-time worker outside the home.

One significant difference that you did not mention is that women in Thailand - especially young women - are heavily "feminized": spend hours on grooming, skin-whitening, make-up application, and other beauty routines designed to appeal to men. Most western women are less obsessed with the "beauty myth": partly because they do not feel such a strong need for male approval: being generally better educated and more financially independent than their Thai counterparts. this is not to say that farang women are "less" feminine, but rather that they perceive and practise their femininity differently.

I think you are onto something when you say that some western men feel threatened by the encroachment of women into "their" intellectual or financial territory. And I agree that the reason some of these guys prefer to partner with Asian women is because they feel "safe" knowing that the competitive aspect is (apparently) absent.

Edited October 12, 2006 by fruittbatt

[Khutan]

...And there is the problem. Assuming that people feel the same as you when many don't, creates the problem of perceived slights when in reality you may be (to strangers) coming on over friendly or unusual to what they are used to.....

I don't understand your point unless you have some other agenda. How can helping people with simple things like when the last BTS service is, or Is there a Supermarket near xxxx or is is normally safe to drink tap-water, if that is a meter of perception, then there you go.

...You are 100% correct. And that is a bloody good question. But if it is any consolation, I am a female and I agree with you.

Thank you, I am glad you understand.

I don't smile at complete strangers in my home country & doubt you do too, so why has being in LOS got to change that?

I think I said why before.

We are different people with different ideas. Just because you speak to complete strangers, doesn't mean that I will.

I can understand that.

[Boo]

I can understand that.

good

[endure]

As for thai community, most we know don't mix with other thais very often. Apart from the people they are forced to work with (if working in resteraunt) they have other friends from other countries & don't involve themselves in the temple lifestyle. Again, different people with different wants or expectations & different perception. Not all thais are sociable or want other thais around all the time.

We have a lot of Thais near me all attending postgrad courses at the local university and they form a regular solid, albeit changing, Thai community. Regular communal visit to the temple, regular socialising. That may be because they're only resident for 2-3 years though.

[Khutan]

We have a lot of Thais near me all attending postgrad courses at the local university and they form a regular solid, albeit changing, Thai community. Regular communal visit to the temple, regular socialising. That may be because they're only resident for 2-3 years though.

Endure;

We are getting off topic here but your point is interesting and also I think as people become more accustomed to their environment then seeking out those of the same ilk is not as important. This is probably true of many people here who when they first arrived felt lost and in need of some guidance, not they "Know the ropes" then like me live well out of central Bangkok, and pretty much do their own thing.

[Boo]

We are getting off topic here but your point is interesting and also I think as people become more accustomed to their environment then seeking out those of the same ilk is not as important. This is probably true of many people here who when they first arrived felt lost and in need of some guidance, not they "Know the ropes" then like me live well out of central Bangkok, and pretty much do their own thing.

I think this is true, the people we know are all "long term" Uk residents & did the temple & thai festival things in the first year, after that they all tailed off into their own routines & after attending local colleges & getting work have a wider pool of people with more common interests.

[sbk]

Asian women have a very long history of being in charge and run things, they are way ahead the western women when it comes to this. Many Asian countries have had one or several heads of state, there are much more women entrepreneurs and business people in Asia than in the west and women in Asia usually have the final, if not all, say when it comes to home and family.

Women in the west had really no say in anything until they were needed in the industry and work life, especially after the world wars when they took over a lot of the work previously done by men who then were out fighting.

Asian women get what they want and run their homes or businesses as women being women and are proud of that.

Western women, lacking the long history of having power, try to run things like men.

Men are always on guard when it comes to power and feel threatened when they are challenged by other men or women acting like men.

When challenged by a woman acting like a woman the threat is not there anymore, any woman can get any man to do just about anything but try to do it as a man and she will run into trouble and the war will start.

Actually, I disagree with a large part of your post here.

Firstly, not every Thai household has the woman in charge of the finances, I know many that do not.

Secondly, you are incorrect in your evaluation of women's roles in the West. You are referring to what was a strictly middle class/upper class lifestyle where the woman did not work. In working class households (which were the majority of the people pre world war II ) women always worked. Rural women on the farm worked just as hard or harder as the men in the field and in the cities not only the men worked but the women and children worked as well (usually factory work or piece meal work in the home). So, again, a flawed analysis based on a middle class mythology that sprung up after WWII.

I do not believe that women in the west "act like men" but rather that alot of older men (since most of the younger guys I have met do not seem to share your attitudes) have had difficulty adjusting to a culture where they do not dominate the scene entirely. I think you are correct in the idea that western men feel threatened when anyone challenges their authority but I don't feel that it is because a woman is "acting like a man".

As for the being friendly to total strangers thing, well, we've gone over this before so I'll just say it one more time anyway. Many women have had bad experiences with men who are overly or inappropriately friendly. Flashers, peeping toms, gropers, men who drug women to rape them. They are all out there. Once bitten, twice shy.

I am quite a friendly person and will strike up a conversation with a stranger in a place where I feel safe (ie public area) but I won't necessarily become friendly with everyone I meet. Depends on the vibe they give off, how I am doing that day, if I am busy, etc etc. Don't take it personally if a woman isn't friendly to you off the bat, maybe she's had an argument with her partner, maybe she's got PMS. Perhaps, instead of being judgemental (which she most likely notices) you could try a bit of empathy and realize that sometimes, people have bad days.

[Boo]

Secondly, you are incorrect in your evaluation of women's roles in the West. You are referring to what was a strictly middle class/upper class lifestyle where the woman did not work. In working class households (which were the majority of the people pre world war II )women always worked. Rural women on the farm worked just as hard or harder as the men in the field and in the cities not only the men worked but the women and children worked as well (usually factory work or piece meal work in the home). So, again, a flawed analysis based on a middle class mythology that sprung up after WWII.

[dgoz]

Asian women have a very long history of being in charge and run things, they are way ahead the western women when it comes to this. Many Asian countries have had one or several heads of state, there are much more women entrepreneurs and business people in Asia than in the west and women in Asia usually have the final, if not all, say when it comes to home and family.

Women in the west had really no say in anything until they were needed in the industry and work life, especially after the world wars when they took over a lot of the work previously done by men who then were out fighting.

Asian women get what they want and run their homes or businesses as women being women and are proud of that.

Western women, lacking the long history of having power, try to run things like men.

Men are always on guard when it comes to power and feel threatened when they are challenged by other men or women acting like men.

When challenged by a woman acting like a woman the threat is not there anymore, any woman can get any man to do just about anything but try to do it as a man and she will run into trouble and the war will start.

You'd have to go a long way to find a more accurate and truthful statement.

Well said.

[sbk]

Asian women have a very long history of being in charge and run things, they are way ahead the western women when it comes to this. Many Asian countries have had one or several heads of state, there are much more women entrepreneurs and business people in Asia than in the west and women in Asia usually have the final, if not all, say when it comes to home and family.

Women in the west had really no say in anything until they were needed in the industry and work life, especially after the world wars when they took over a lot of the work previously done by men who then were out fighting.

Asian women get what they want and run their homes or businesses as women being women and are proud of that.

Western women, lacking the long history of having power, try to run things like men.

Men are always on guard when it comes to power and feel threatened when they are challenged by other men or women acting like men.

When challenged by a woman acting like a woman the threat is not there anymore, any woman can get any man to do just about anything but try to do it as a man and she will run into trouble and the war will start.

You'd have to go a long way to find a more accurate and truthful statement.

Well said.

Perhaps you think so, but historically inaccurate

[bkkmadness]

SBK, clue me in here, what part is historically inaccurate?

The post wasn't saying western women didn't work before the world wars, just that they had little say and little power, which I can imagine that to be true.

Edited October 12, 2006 by bkkmadness

[sbk]

I read the implication that they didn't work from this part of the post here:

until they were needed in the industry and work life, especially after the world wars when they took over a lot of the work previously done by men who then were out fighting.

Perhaps I am misreading the post but it appears to imply that women didn't work until WWII.

As far as the "women having no say" idea, well, it probably depended on the family, as it does in Thailand.

[bkkmadness]

I read it as whatever work they did before was not important enough for them to warrant a say in things, but during the world wars when lots of men were away and women became a much needed asset in the workplace they managed to get there say and power. I expect because they had more leverage to negotiate their rights during these times.

Edited October 12, 2006 by bkkmadness

[sbk]

Didn't last then, did it? The current women's lib movement came more than 20 years after the end of WWII. And you are also discounting the massive influence of women in the 1800's who managed to not only gain the right to vote but were the driving force behind the temperance movement.

Google Elizabeth Cady Stanton and find out how influential women could be before the wars.

[bkkmadness]

Didn't last then, did it? The current women's lib movement came more than 20 years after the end of WWII. And you are also discounting the massive influence of women in the 1800's who managed to not only gain the right to vote but were the driving force behind the temperance movement.

Google Elizabeth Cady Stanton and find out how influential women could be before the wars.

The women's right to vote came after the first world war. I realise the women that influenced this were from the 1800s but this major achievement in the women's rights movement only came in the 1920s.

[sbk]

Legal rights (in the US, many European countries were much more forward thinking) but I think the idea that women had no influence or say in things is taking things a bit too far.

When I was in college I had a very interesting professor (from the UK) who taught us the radical notion that just because it is in a book doesn't make it the only valid history around. I think many men buy into the notion that women had no influence because it makes their own opinions about the "changing culture" seem more valid.

[bkkmadness]

This war isn't happening in Asia.

IMO the Feminism movement got out of control and convinced women in the west not only to go for equal rights but also to "take the bastards for everything".

I suppose I should put me 2 bahts in about the OP.

The "take the bastards for everything" is usually a comment that you hear during divorce proceedings, I would say this is little to do with feminism but more to do with the suing/litigation culture of nowadays. You can take the bastards for everything if you get a dodgy tomato in your beefburger these days. Not a war between the sexes at all.

[sbk]

This war isn't happening in Asia.

IMO the Feminism movement got out of control and convinced women in the west not only to go for equal rights but also to "take the bastards for everything".

I suppose I should put me 2 bahts in about the OP.

The "take the bastards for everything" is usually a comment that you hear during divorce proceedings, I would say this is little to do with feminism but more to do with the suing/litigation culture of nowadays. You can take the bastards for everything if you get a dodgy tomato in your beefburger these days. Not a war between the sexes at all.

I agree with you 100% on this one, bkkmadness.

"Kill all the lawyers" is one very old phrase that seems to transcend time

[bkkmadness]

Legal rights (in the US, many European countries were much more forward thinking) but I think the idea that women had no influence or say in things is taking things a bit too far.

When I was in college I had a very interesting professor (from the UK) who taught us the radical notion that just because it is in a book doesn't make it the only valid history around. I think many men buy into the notion that women had no influence because it makes their own opinions about the "changing culture" seem more valid.

I think women definately had influence before the war, but equality between women and men has come along very sudden after the wars, and lets face it some men are not happy about that, but as years roll by that'll thankfully be changing.

I think the poster before that said Asian women had this power long before western women is foolish though. As far as I can see, only western women have achieved true equality so far. The man has long ruled the roost in Asia.

[bkkmadness]

This war isn't happening in Asia.

IMO the Feminism movement got out of control and convinced women in the west not only to go for equal rights but also to "take the bastards for everything".

I suppose I should put me 2 bahts in about the OP.

The "take the bastards for everything" is usually a comment that you hear during divorce proceedings, I would say this is little to do with feminism but more to do with the suing/litigation culture of nowadays. You can take the bastards for everything if you get a dodgy tomato in your beefburger these days. Not a war between the sexes at all.

I agree with you 100% on this one, bkkmadness.

"Kill all the lawyers" is one very old phrase that seems to transcend time

Nah, dont kill the lawyers, my back up plan is to go to America and find that dodgy tomato.

[ZZZ]

Asian women have a very long history of being in charge and run things, they are way ahead the western women when it comes to this. Many Asian countries have had one or several heads of state, there are much more women entrepreneurs and business people in Asia than in the west and women in Asia usually have the final, if not all, say when it comes to home and family.

Women in the west had really no say in anything until they were needed in the industry and work life, especially after the world wars when they took over a lot of the work previously done by men who then were out fighting.

Asian women get what they want and run their homes or businesses as women being women and are proud of that.

Western women, lacking the long history of having power, try to run things like men.

Men are always on guard when it comes to power and feel threatened when they are challenged by other men or women acting like men.

When challenged by a woman acting like a woman the threat is not there anymore, any woman can get any man to do just about anything but try to do it as a man and she will run into trouble and the war will start.

Actually, I disagree with a large part of your post here.

Firstly, not every Thai household has the woman in charge of the finances, I know many that do not.

I did not think I had to mention that I was generalizing, talking about the big picture, there are of course always exceptions.

Secondly, you are incorrect in your evaluation of women's roles in the West. You are referring to what was a strictly middle class/upper class lifestyle where the woman did not work. In working class households (which were the majority of the people pre world war II ) women always worked. Rural women on the farm worked just as hard or harder as the men in the field and in the cities not only the men worked but the women and children worked as well (usually factory work or piece meal work in the home). So, again, a flawed analysis based on a middle class mythology that sprung up after WWII.

I said that women had no say in anything until they got out in the industrial workplace, women have allways been working hard. It was after the wars that western women really got some power on a bigger scale

I do not believe that women in the west "act like men" but rather that alot of older men (since most of the younger guys I have met do not seem to share your attitudes) have had difficulty adjusting to a culture where they do not dominate the scene entirely.

Again I'm generalizing, there are many exceptions. I have met many women in management positions and those who take the "manly" approach to management seems to have all sorts of problems while those who manage being a woman are doing fine. Most men have no problems being dominated by a woman but it must not be domination in a "manly" way. I don't think I have attitudes, I'm just relating observations.

I think you are correct in the idea that western men feel threatened when anyone challenges their authority but I don't feel th

at it is because a woman is "acting like a man". 

[color=#FF6666]Well I'm a man and I feel it is because a woman is "acting like a man", you are a woman and you don't feel that, I wonder who has the best feel for this ;-)[/color]

[pap]

Legal rights (in the US, many European countries were much more forward thinking) but I think the idea that women had no influence or say in things is taking things a bit too far.

When I was in college I had a very interesting professor (from the UK) who taught us the radical notion that just because it is in a book doesn't make it the only valid history around. I think many men buy into the notion that women had no influence because it makes their own opinions about the "changing culture" seem more valid.

I think women definately had influence before the war, but equality between women and men has come along very sudden after the wars, and lets face it some men are not happy about that, but as years roll by that'll thankfully be changing.

I think the poster before that said Asian women had this power long before western women is foolish though. As far as I can see, only western women have achieved true equality so far. The man has long ruled the roost in Asia.

I think you are thinking about this from a western point of view (not "THE" western point of view but "A") Power in relationships comes from many attributes. It is not just political or related to business in its nature. Because a woman is not a house wife does not mean she has power and vice versa. I think you are trying to fathom the unfathomable. "Women" wether they be farangs or non farangs are unfathomable. The fun is in the discovery not the understanding. You will find few of them understand themselves let alone you.

[pap]

When I go about my business I don't "act like a man". I act like me doing business. IF that is threatening to some men then that is entirely their problem as I AM a women & act like a women. I don't need to act like a man to get things done in business but then again, I don't need to flatter or massage egos to get anything done either. If I want something done at work I ask, as a professional person to another professional person.

That sounds a little Naive to me. Its possible I am being Naive also. You get more done by being polite and treating people well than not. You get more productivity from flattery than criticism. These are basic human emotions which I am sure you recognize. They have nothing to do with the sex of the people involved. I am not saying you are excluding these basic emotions but if you are.... you are missing out on productivity and the fun involved in living. If everything were just one professional to another, life would be oh so boring. There are personal relationships involved and if you don't deal with that factor you will be less effective. I am sounding preachy now. That was not my intent. Fun is something the Thais can teach us all if we just listen. Well...in most cases.

[Boo]

You get more done by being polite and treating people well than not

I didn't mention anything about being impolite or not treating people well but if I need a collegue to do something I will not automatically start batting my eyelashies & twirling my hair or telling them how good looking they are to get them to do something if they are a man. I will ask in a polite courteous manner for it to be done as I would expect them to address me. Nothing manly about it as I am a women but flattery has it's place & IMO my office of 12k staff of mixed race, religion, sex & personalities isn't it.

Of course there are individuals whom I get along better than others & we have our banter & laughs but for the majority I act professionally & actiong professionally isn't the same as acting like a man

[Ijustwannateach]

I don't seem to have many problems with white women of whatever age, but it may have something to do with the "gay vibes"- I certainly don't present as someone who is either threatening or a potentially unwelcome sexual interest. I think a lot of the perceived negativity has to do with manner and attitude, and then maybe some of it is just bad luck.

"Steven"

[dgoz]

I don't seem to have many problems with white women of whatever age, but it may have something to do with the "gay vibes"- I certainly don't present as someone who is either threatening or a potentially unwelcome sexual interest. I think a lot of the perceived negativity has to do with manner and attitude, and then maybe some of it is just bad luck.

"Steven"

Steven, I don't know how you could possibly add to this thread being gay.

I know I certainly could not give advice on gay relationships.

Western women, for some reason, have great realationships and a lot of respect for gay guys. Kinda tells ya something, doesnt it.

Now, if only they could show some respect to the non-gay male population.........

[fruittbatt]

I don't seem to have many problems with white women of whatever age, but it may have something to do with the "gay vibes"- I certainly don't present as someone who is either threatening or a potentially unwelcome sexual interest. I think a lot of the perceived negativity has to do with manner and attitude, and then maybe some of it is just bad luck.

"Steven"

Steven, I don't know how you could possibly add to this thread being gay.

I know I certainly could not give advice on gay relationships.

Western women, for some reason, have great realationships and a lot of respect for gay guys. Kinda tells ya something, doesnt it.

Now, if only they could show some respect to the non-gay male population.........

dgoz, respect is earned, not automatically conferred.

You are quite wrong to imagine that farang women have greater respect for gay men simply on account of their sexual preferences. In my experience within Thailand, gay farang men quite often initiate pleasant small-talk in restaurants, elevators, concerts etc.

This is a welcome change from the furtive glances, surliness, unacknowledgement, and leers which a MINORITY of hetero farang men dishes out.

Many farangs with female Thai partners I have met in Thailand act fairly much the same way as the gay men mentioned above> they are reasonably open and willing to exchange pleasantries.

Steven's point that he does not get "bad vibes" from women is evidently a reflection of the open-minded way he relates to women as fellow human beings rather than as "sex objects". It is this ability that women appreciate and respect - regardless of a man's sexual proclivities.