UK Benefits Farce.

[jacky54]

So if an illegal immigrant obtains a NI number then gets a job that's not fraud, no wonder they will do anything to get to the UK

[Jip99]

So if an illegal immigrant obtains a NI number then gets a job that's not fraud, no wonder they will do anything to get to the UK

Sounds a bit like buying a visa extension in Pattaya.

The stamp is legitimate, but the process of obtaining said stamp is not.

[jpinx]

There's nothing to prevent a person starting work without a NI number, especially if they're working for "friends"

quote...

Working without a National Insurance number

You can start work for an employer before your National Insurance number arrives, if you can prove you have the right to work in the UK. You should tell your employer that you have applied for one, and give it to them as soon as possible after you receive it. They will use the number to run their payroll, and make sure you are paying the correct amount of NI through your pay, if any

/quote

http://nationalinsurancenumberonline.co.uk/

Not too difficult to get a friends paper and present it to a new "friendly" employer...

https://www.gov.uk/legal-right-work-uk/y/no/it-is-not-up-to-date-or-without-certificate/from-somewhere-else/no/no/yes

Edited January 10, 2016 by jpinx

[7by7]

OK, I accept that your interpretation of the word 'loophole' in this context differs from that published in every dictionary.

The fact remains that an immigrant's entitlement to public funds is extremely limited; even those from EEA countries are not entitled to as much as the general public seem to believe.

I am not disputing that benefit fraud is a problem. It is a crime and anyone who knows, or suspects that, someone is committing it can report it anonymously here,

But, as acknowledged earlier in this topic, it is not a crime restricted to immigrants, legal or otherwise. Most offenders are white British.

However, as is obvious from the OP onwards, some people here are not interested in that; they simply want to have yet another dig at immigrants in general and Muslims, British or not, in particular.

Please don't tar me with the bigot-brush... http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/882388-uk-benefits-farce/#entry10249172

Had I said 'you' or 'some people here including you' then I could understand your comment.

But as not only did I not say that but I also referenced your linked to comment, it appears you are being a tad defensive!

[7by7]

So if an illegal immigrant obtains a NI number then gets a job that's not fraud, no wonder they will do anything to get to the UK

You have obviously either not read or failed to understand the links to the checks on people applying for an NI number and those employers are required to make on all their employees!

To make it simple enough for you to understand: the only way an illegal immigrant could get a NI number, a job or claim benefits is by producing fraudulent documents.

A crime which undoubtedly does happen; but a crime nonetheless.

Just as people who employ people without carrying out the legally required checks or knowingly employ illegal immigrants are committing a crime.

UK employers fined £30m for employing illegal workers.

[GuestHouse]

OK, I accept that your interpretation of the word 'loophole' in this context differs from that published in every dictionary.

The fact remains that an immigrant's entitlement to public funds is extremely limited; even those from EEA countries are not entitled to as much as the general public seem to believe.

I am not disputing that benefit fraud is a problem. It is a crime and anyone who knows, or suspects that, someone is committing it can report it anonymously here,

But, as acknowledged earlier in this topic, it is not a crime restricted to immigrants, legal or otherwise. Most offenders are white British.

However, as is obvious from the OP onwards, some people here are not interested in that; they simply want to have yet another dig at immigrants in general and Muslims, British or not, in particular.

Spot on 7by7.

A point missed by those dancing on the end of a string being jerked by the right wing press and right wing politicos ranting against the abuse of the UK welfare system by foreigners is that the 'foreigners coming to the UK to claim benefits' is a constructed argument being used to roll back welfare benefits for everyone.

The UK is one of the richest nations in the world, we choose to allow the corporations making billion's in the UK to dodge taxes, dodge NI contributions and dump the consequences of reducing worker benefits on the welfare state, while the right wing point at foreigners abusing the welfare state, but can't actually come up with any credible data on the scale of the abuse.

Does abuse of welfare by foreigners who are not entitled occur - of course it does.

Are there other issues around welfare we should be concerned with? - it seems so but you will not be given the data http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/the-dwp-is-still-stalling-on-releasing-controversial-disability-benefit-death-stats-10404569.html

The UK one of the richest nations in the world and yet ... http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-32812601

Let's all chip in an undermine public support for welfare by ranting about the abuse of welfare by foreigners, while not being able to produce any reliable data to support the claims.

[7by7]

There's nothing to prevent a person starting work without a NI number, especially if they're working for "friends"

quote...

Working without a National Insurance number

You can start work for an employer before your National Insurance number arrives, if you can prove you have the right to work in the UK. You should tell your employer that you have applied for one, and give it to them as soon as possible after you receive it. They will use the number to run their payroll, and make sure you are paying the correct amount of NI through your pay, if any

/quote

http://nationalinsurancenumberonline.co.uk/

Yes, you can legally start work before you have received your NI number; my wife did so as did most of her Thai friends. Your employer will use a temporary one based on your date of birth until your actual one is issued.

Note the word temporary. If you do not present your actual one to your employer within a reasonable time then any proper employer will be asking difficult questions!

Also, as the part you quoted says, they will only do this "if you can prove you have the right to work in the UK."

Not too difficult to get a friends paper and present it to a new "friendly" employer...

https://www.gov.uk/legal-right-work-uk/y/no/it-is-not-up-to-date-or-without-certificate/from-somewhere-else/no/no/yes

From your link

The worker needs to have both of the following:

##a current Immigration Status Document issued by the Home Office, stating that the worker has indefinite leave to remain or has no time limit to their stay in the UK

##an official letter or document from a government agency (eg HM Revenue and Customs, Department for Work and Pensions, or the Social Security Agency in Northern Ireland) or previous employer, showing their name and National Insurance number

The reason for this is that there are people who were issued their ILR many years ago, so the stamp is not in their current passport and they do not have a BRP.

But anyone who uses someone else's documents for any purpose is, of course, committing a criminal offence.

Could also cause HMRC to take an interest as it would appear that the same person with the same NI number is doing two jobs. Not illegal for someone to have two or more jobs, of course, but HMRC will want their pound of flesh!

But as you reckon it's so easy, may I suggest an experiment?

Give it a try, and let us know how you get on.

But be careful!

One example from Possession of a False Identity Documents With Improper Intent

R v MUTEDE [2005] EWCA Crim 3208

The defendant, who had a genuine passport, pleaded guilty to obtaining the false immigration letters and false national insurance card to enable her to work in the United Kingdom. Kolawole was primarily concerned with false passports. In the Court's view it was necessary to distinguish using a false passport to obtain entry into the country, and using false immigration letters to obtain work. 6 months

Edited January 10, 2016 by 7by7

[jpinx]

Not defensive, but not pedantic either

[loppylugs1]

The "no benefits" for four years to incoming foreigners is being extended to returning ex pats too

[i claudius]

Yes thanks to the E.U,although I bet Dave did not fight to hard

Edited January 11, 2016 by i claudius

[Liquorice]

jacky54,

So your mate married an illegal immigrant who used identity fraud to get a NI number, job, council flat etc. and, as you say, illegally abuse the system

Did he assist her in this illegal activity?

Were aware of it and if so why did you not report it to the relevant authority?

Even if any of it is true, you are talking about illegal activities, not legal loopholes.

Only the Job Centre will ask for proof of ID for a NI number.

If you ring DWP direct they will issue a NI number based on your name and address without any proof of ID.

Once you have a NI number, most employers don't ask for proof of status or the right to work.

Your in the system and working, easy as that.

Considering your claimed expertise, your ignorance of the law is astounding!

You cannot apply for a NI number at a Job Centre; you have to apply by phone.

A selection of applicants are required to attend an identity interview. I don't know the percentage; but my wife was required to attend one when she applied for hers 16 years ago.

See Apply for a National Insurance number.

All employers are legally obliged to check that all potential employees have the legal right to work in the UK, whether they have a NI number or not; see Check a job applicant's 'right to work' documents

The penalties for not carrying out this check or for employing illegal workers include a fine of £20,00o per illegal employee; see Penalties for employing illegal workers

Under the Immigration Act 2014, landlords will soon be required to carry out similar checks on their tenants; New immigration checks for agents and landlords

jpinx, Starbucks and similar have been investigated to see if the tax loopholes they exploited were legal; as far as I am aware they were at the time.

But you originally claimed that immigrants were exploiting loopholes to legally claim benefits they otherwise would not be entitled to and to legally bring their extended family into the UK. This, as has been proven, is not the case.

I have no idea what immigration law in Germany has to do with this subject. Germany and the UK have different laws, so the situation in Germany is irrelevant to that in the UK.

Excuse me, but where did I say you phone the job centre?

Only the Job Centre will ask for proof of ID for a NI number.

If you ring DWP direct they will issue a NI number based on your name and address without any proof of ID.

The DWP will frequently issue an NI number without any need to visit the Jobcentre for an interview, or without any proof of ID.

https://www.gov.uk/apply-national-insurance-number

Jobcentre Plus may write to you and ask you to come to an interview where you’ll be asked about your circumstances and why you need a National Insurance number. The letter will also tell you which documents to bring to prove your identity,

Maybe your wife was interviewed for her NI number, but I can assure you many are not including my ex wife and the Asian wives of many friends in the UK.

AS for the rest of your links, your living in a fantasy world where the 'law' states, but unfortunately thousands break the law every day

I'm talking from my personal experiences and the personal and confidential information I was privy too.

[Liquorice]

All employers are legally obliged to check that all potential employees have the legal right to work in the UK, whether they have a NI number or not; see Check a job applicant's 'right to work' documents

The penalties for not carrying out this check or for employing illegal workers include a fine of £20,00o per illegal employee; see Penalties for employing illegal workers

Under the Immigration Act 2014, landlords will soon be required to carry out similar checks on their tenants; New immigration checks for agents and landlords

Obviously not all employers check that potential employees have the right to work, otherwise they wouldn't be caught and fined for employing illegal Immigrants as is often the case.

Asian restaurants are some of the worst offenders, not paying the legal wage and employing many who do not have the right to work.

They exploit there own kind and are only concerned with making money, not the 'law'.

My best friends wife in the UK has ILR and has worked at a number of Restaurants in Chinatown Manchester.

She works 60+ hours a week for £200, which is maximum they pay (£3.33 ph).

They don't pay tax or NI, the books are fiddled. If questioned they lie about the hours staff work.

During a Visit to the UK by his wife's brother last year, her restaurant 'illegally' employed him for 5 months for £2.50ph.

Her brother had no complaints, it's double what he would earn in China.

If someone complains, they are blacklisted and the Chinese restaurant owners ensure they never work again.

That's the reality for thousands of Immigrants.

Slave labour, evasion of taxes and NI contributions and it's rife throughout all the Asian employers.

The lack of English language ability forces many to work in corrupt community businesses.

They also regularly 'illegally' employ those on Visas who have no right to work, and 'Illegal Immigrants' where they can get away with paying £2 - £2.50ph.

That's the reality, not the law.

[Liquorice]

But you originally claimed that immigrants were exploiting loopholes to legally claim benefits they otherwise would not be entitled to and to legally bring their extended family into the UK. This, as has been proven, is not the case.

I have no idea what immigration law in Germany has to do with this subject. Germany and the UK have different laws, so the situation in Germany is irrelevant to that in the UK.

At the end of WW2, Britain invited Africans, Indians, Pakistanis and encouraged Immigration to fulfil the labour requirements in rebuilding the Countries infrastructure.

They were given British citizenship as part of the deal and allowed to bring immediate family members.

Mr S from Pakistan arrived in the UK late 1940's as a young man with his Mother and Father.

He married, had children, and his children had children.

They all live in the same house, 3 generations of family.

Mr S and his wife are now retired, living on Pensions and Savings.

Their two sons claim benefits, but run a taxi hire service throughout the night.

They were both introduced to girls from Pakistan and marriages were arranged.

Of course being on benefits they couldn't support their wives, but Mum and Dad sponsored them with the Savings they have.

(Note savings are an accumulation of money collected and lumped together by family members for just such reasons)

Now they have children, the wives have UK citizenship.

More benefits, child allowance and so the circle gets bigger and bigger and history will repeat itself.

I visited many, many Asian families and in 1-3 cases the situation was as above.

Benefit fraud, abuse of the system, and circumventing the Immigration system.

That's how it works and will continue to work.

As a Charity, we couldn't report it/them as the information was collected under the strictest confidence.

The information and statistics passed on to the government remained anonymous.

Please note 7by7 these are British citizens.

Regarding Germany and other EU states, I gave the example because the legal right to claim Child allowance in two separate Countries is in my opinion an abuse of taxpayers money. Your home Country and another EU state you may choose to live in. No wonder so many Poles visit the UK for 3 months.

I'll bet that little pot would be enough to give all UK Pensions annual Pension increases regardless of where they live.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Faz

[Liquorice]

Somebody please ask me about the care of Asylum seekers and the cost to the Welfare State.........I'm on a roll

[jpinx]

Somebody please ask me about the care of Asylum seekers and the cost to the Welfare State.........I'm on a roll

I'll bite

I see the Calais Camp has been at last identified as a haven for ISIS people, so what is the procedure they go through and what benefits will the returning ISIS guys get?

[7by7]

The "no benefits" for four years to incoming foreigners is being extended to returning ex pats too

Yes thanks to the E.U,although I bet Dave did not fight to hard

Really?

Perhaps one of you will provide a link to this change and how it is thanks to the EU.

BTW, non EEA immigrants cannot claim for five years, not four.

[jacky54]

Somebody please ask me about the care of Asylum seekers and the cost to the Welfare State.........I'm on a roll

I'll bite

I see the Calais Camp has been at last identified as a haven for ISIS people, so what is the procedure they go through and what benefits will the returning ISIS guys get?

As we have seen all they have to do is walk through the tunnel, get processed and then 39 quid a week plus food and accommodation- heaven for them. Lots of free time to plot attacks against the country that gave them asylum, some call it compassion, others madness.

[7by7]

Excuse me, but where did I say you phone the job centre?

Where did I say that you did say that?

As for the rest of your posts; you are talking about people engaging in criminal activities.

There are laws in place to stop people from working illegally, there are laws in place to stop benefit fraud. There are laws in place to prevent visa fraud.

Coincidentally, yesterday afternoon I came across a repeat of the programme UK Border Force on Sky. That edition followed three cases

• A visa applicant who had presented false documents; his application was refused and he was told that any application for a UK visa by him in the next 10 years would also be refused.
• A raid on an Indian restaurant by a UKVI enforcement team, acting on information received. They found several illegal workers and they were arrested and the restaurant owner heavily fined.
• A spouse visa applicant who was refused because the ECO believed his marriage to a British citizen was not genuine.

Obviously, whilst the relevant authorities have their own means of discovering these criminals, they do also rely to a large extent on information from the public.

You say you know many instances where people are breaking the law, but you refuse to report it.

If you know someone is breaking the law and refuse to report it, then you are as much a part of the problem as the lawbreaker.

[7by7]

jpinx,

Whatever benefits migrants in Calais may or may not be receiving, as Calais is in France they are not receiving them from the UK government!

[jpinx]

jpinx,

Whatever benefits migrants in Calais may or may not be receiving, as Calais is in France they are not receiving them from the UK government!

You did not understand the question......

[7by7]

As for the Calais camp being "at last identified as a haven for ISIS people;" an opinion, with only hearsay evidence to back it up.

Jihadis 'may be in Calais camp', ex police terror chief claims

A former Scotland Yard counter-terrorist investigator told the Inside Out team he had similar worries about the "jungle".

David Videcette said the "biggest risk" from the camp was UK nationals "who are trying to avoid detection by police... are now attempting to re-enter the country claiming to be asylum seekers".

However, the founder of Care4Calais, a UK charity set up to help migrants staying in the camp, dismissed the claims as "the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard".

Clare Moseley said: "You would have to be the world's stupidest terrorist to try and enter Britain as a refugee, because when you come as a refugee you are subject to detailed background checks."

Are there terrorists and/or criminals attempting to smuggle themselves into the UK? Almost certainly. But the vast majority of those who are attempting to do so are either economic migrants, who get no sympathy from me, or genuine refugees.

[7by7]

jpinx,

Whatever benefits migrants in Calais may or may not be receiving, as Calais is in France they are not receiving them from the UK government!

You did not understand the question......

So explain it to me.

For starters, as any 'returning ISIS guys" will be criminals, the only benefit they'd get were they to actually arrive back in the UK would be a prison cell.

Surely, though, this topic is supposed to be about abuses to the UK's welfare system?

Abuses you, yourself, said were mostly carried out by white British people.

Why haven't you and others addressed how that can be solved but instead concentrated on immigrants, the descendants of immigrants and asylum seekers; especially those of one particular religion?

There are plenty of other topics on Thai Visa where the anti immigration brigade and the Islamaphobes can, and do, post their prejudices.

[jpinx]

jpinx,

Whatever benefits migrants in Calais may or may not be receiving, as Calais is in France they are not receiving them from the UK government!

You did not understand the question......

So explain it to me.

For starters, as any 'returning ISIS guys" will be criminals, the only benefit they'd get were they to actually arrive back in the UK would be a prison cell.

Surely, though, this topic is supposed to be about abuses to the UK's welfare system?

Abuses you, yourself, said were mostly carried out by white British people.

Why haven't you and others addressed how that can be solved but instead concentrated on immigrants, the descendants of immigrants and asylum seekers; especially those of one particular religion?

There are plenty of other topics on Thai Visa where the anti immigration brigade and the Islamaphobes can, and do, post their prejudices.

it's a lot of reading, but some of the earlier posts in this thread might help your understanding

[Liquorice]

One particular day, I had two appointments on the same street in Levenshulme, Manchester.

Mrs P lived at 137 and was a Pensioner.

Mr Q lived at 1-5 of the same street with no information about his status, although his ethnicity was noted as Iraqi, non English speaking and with details to phone another lady 10 minutes before arrival who would interpret.

Mrs P's situation was typical of many Pensioners in the UK. Paying full rent and Council tax along with bills. Her income didn't meet her entitlement and as such I referred her for a benefits assessment from one of our experts.

After concluding that appointment I rang the interpreter, who was actually the clients daughter to say I was on my way.

However some 15 minutes later, I still couldn't find Nos. 1-5. There were some large gates, then the first house was No 7.

After some confusion I rang his daughter again who informed me and directed me to his apartment beyond the gates which she electronically opened for me.

This was a large private estate of apartments and houses.

Mr Q was a very kindly gent and offered a cup of tea through his daughter.

As I completed the assessment, I became more and more confused by the answers.

Are you in receipt of a Pension.........No.

Are you claiming any benefits.........No.

Eventually Mr Q's daughter explained that her Father was an Iraqi Asylum seeker.

Apparently he spent some time in the UK many years ago, where his daughter was born and he wisely registered her birth and attained a UK passport for her.

Later when her Mother died she moved to the UK and was settled with a very good job. (Solicitor)

Her Father had visited the UK on a couple of occasions to see his daughter.

After the invasion of Iraq in 2003, she became concerned for her Fathers welfare and applied for her Father to join her in the UK as a dependant, but the application was refused. Two years later she managed to get him another Visitor Visa and on arrival he claimed Asylum.

(His case was still ongoing after 4 years).

Mr Q was housed in a beautiful newly built apartment. New furniture throughout with all mod cons.

He wasn't entitled to any benefits, so I was puzzled as to how he lived.

Social Security!

His apartment and the other 2 and 3 bedroom houses on the estate were purpose built to house Asylum seekers pending their cases being reviewed.

They furnish the houses and pay the bills. They give Mr Q cash for food, his daughter doing his shopping and no receipts required.

When the cash runs out he asks for more. (His daughter stated them give him £100 at a time)

The children on the estate were well dressed and many had bicycles. There were also a number of cars parked outside.

When I enquired further, I was told many were harassed or victims of racial abuse from locals in the neighbourhood,, so Social Services provided cars to take children to and from school, or shopping to avoid public transport and confrontations of abuse.

The whole estate was highly fenced with two security gates at either end.

That was to keep people out, not in. The residents had the freedom to come and go.

I wondered what the hell I was there for as our services didn't seem applicable to the situation.

His daughter wanted an extra grab rail fitting in the shower, a bath mat, and a key safe fitting outside his front door to keep a spare key as her Father constantly misplaced his keys. As a Charity we supplied and fitted these free under our Security services for elderly, vulnerable and disabled people.

As an Asylum seeker he was regarded as vulnerable.

Coming from an old age pensioner (Mrs P) who was really in need of some help and then into that situation was a real shock and an eye opener to anything I'd believed or experienced before. I believe there are purpose built estate just like this one in most major cities across the UK.

I have no idea as to the total costs, other than the costs are not reflected in the governments Benefits statistics.

[Liquorice]

Excuse me, but where did I say you phone the job centre?

Where did I say that you did say that?

As for the rest of your posts; you are talking about people engaging in criminal activities.

There are laws in place to stop people from working illegally, there are laws in place to stop benefit fraud. There are laws in place to prevent visa fraud.

Coincidentally, yesterday afternoon I came across a repeat of the programme UK Border Force on Sky. That edition followed three cases

• A visa applicant who had presented false documents; his application was refused and he was told that any application for a UK visa by him in the next 10 years would also be refused.
• A raid on an Indian restaurant by a UKVI enforcement team, acting on information received. They found several illegal workers and they were arrested and the restaurant owner heavily fined.
• A spouse visa applicant who was refused because the ECO believed his marriage to a British citizen was not genuine.

Obviously, whilst the relevant authorities have their own means of discovering these criminals, they do also rely to a large extent on information from the public.

You say you know many instances where people are breaking the law, but you refuse to report it.

If you know someone is breaking the law and refuse to report it, then you are as much a part of the problem as the lawbreaker.

I agree there are laws in place, but that doesn't stop those in a disposition from lying and cheating to get what they want and there are those that make a great deal of money from exploiting the system.

Do you remember the case of Rakhi Shahi, 31 from London, who was herself an illegal immigrant, but ran an Immigration consultancy business with her husband and his 2nd wife.

The group created thousands of bogus documents including college degree certificates, tax and wage forms, references and academic records, to secure UK visas including student visas.

The scam exploited the Highly Skilled Migrant Programme, the International Graduate Scheme and other leave-to-remain visa applications.

Police suspect the company secured visas for at least 1,000 people, mostly from the Indian sub-continent, using a network of bogus colleges in London, Manchester, Bradford and Essex.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/8081354.stm

What we see on the news or read in the press is just the tip of the iceberg.

The laws are obviously failing because of a lack of resources and adequate staffing levels.

Obviously, whilst the relevant authorities have their own means of discovering these criminals, they do also rely to a large extent on information from the public.

You say you know many instances where people are breaking the law, but you refuse to report it.

If you know someone is breaking the law and refuse to report it, then you are as much a part of the problem as the lawbreaker.

Client confidentiality, like a Solicitor and his client.

It was a written part of our contract not to discuss or disclose any client information outside of the Charity.

We would and could advise them it was illegal, but they already knew that.

The profits gained usually outweighed the risks.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Faz

[MAJIC]

More than the subtle bigotry so commonly tolerated on Thaivisa here we have overt racism. The vast majority of public benefits are sucked up by the majority. Why bigots never point to Stoke-on-Trent or Scunthorpe to blame White British for these paradises? Of course not.

Many of us have already mentioned ( post 131)that the benefits scandal is not restricted to immigrants. We all know that the white natives are the greater recipient of welfare benefits, if only because there are more of them. What I cannot understand is why the UK is allowing more people with no connection into the UK, who are basically unemployable, yet are placing restrictions on British citizens, with a foreign spouse,from returning to their home country unless they can prove their spouse will not be a drain on the tax payer.

It's a small gesture to put in the the spouses Passport "No Recourse to Public funds" when across the channel there is literally millions who can walk in without being hindered too much! because our Benefit system pay out more than EU Benefits. That's why Cameron and Teresa May can't control Immigration,Their target for reducing immigration for the last year of figures was exceeded by around 200,000 of their forecast of only 10,000.

I believe British Citizens should have the right of having their family with them,before any other considerations of foreign nationals who have never paid a penny into our Countries system !

[7by7]

Faz, two points.

1) I find it difficult to believe that any reputable charity would not report illegal activity whenever it discovered it; but if you say so.

You seem to be very angry at immigrants engaging in illegal activities in order to claim and receive public funds to which they are not entitled; and rightly so.

So I have to ask; why do you continue to work for a charity which advises criminals on how to use the system to illegally receive benefits, or at best ignores the fact that they are so doing?

Were I in your position I would at the very least resign; and probably also blow the whistle on them.

2) There is no disputing that the welfare system in the UK is in dire need of reform; some people can legally claim and receive absurd amounts whilst others who are worse off can receive nothing.

But right from the start of this topic you have concentrated solely on cases involving immigrants in general and Muslims, whether British or not, in particular.

The majority of the population is white British and the majority of claimants, genuine or not, are also white British; you must have come across some cases from this group in your work.

Yet you do not mention them; why?

The obvious answer is that, despite the title you chose for this topic, you do not want to discuss the faults of the UK's benefits system; you simply wanted to have a rant against immigrants and Muslims.

A rant in which all the usual suspects have yet again been happy to join in and display their ignorance and/or prejudice.

[7by7]

Majic,

You seem to be under the impression that an EEA national can waltz into the UK and immediately start claiming benefits.

They can't.

For starters, they can claim nothing until they have lived in the UK exercising a treaty right for at least three months.

Then, to receive any means tested benefit they have to satisfy the habitual residence test.

They can, of course, receive any contribution based benefits for which they have paid the required NICs.

The same rules apply to British citizens living in other EEA states. They have the same, conditional, rights to state benefits as EEA nationals do in the UK; and many do claim those benefits.

[nontabury]

Faz, two points.

1) I find it difficult to believe that any reputable charity would not report illegal activity whenever it discovered it; but if you say so.

You seem to be very angry at immigrants engaging in illegal activities in order to claim and receive public funds to which they are not entitled; and rightly so.

So I have to ask; why do you continue to work for a charity which advises criminals on how to use the system to illegally receive benefits, or at best ignores the fact that they are so doing?

Were I in your position I would at the very least resign; and probably also blow the whistle on them.

2) There is no disputing that the welfare system in the UK is in dire need of reform; some people can legally claim and receive absurd amounts whilst others who are worse off can receive nothing.

But right from the start of this topic you have concentrated solely on cases involving immigrants in general and Muslims, whether British or not, in particular.

The majority of the population is white British and the majority of claimants, genuine or not, are also white British; you must have come across some cases from this group in your work.

Yet you do not mention them; why?

The obvious answer is that, despite the title you chose for this topic, you do not want to discuss the faults of the UK's benefits system; you simply wanted to have a rant against immigrants and Muslims.

A rant in which all the usual suspects have yet again been happy to join in and display their ignorance and/or prejudice.

While agreeing with your first 2 points, you then go on to mention immigrants.

Well I think you will find that most people are concerned with this group because the majority of them will never have paid into the system.

We already have Some British people who are basically lazy scrounges, why import more?If they have a job to come to,fair enough,but if they cannot prove that employment is awaiting them, then simple deport them to their homeland.

[7by7]

As has been shown earlier in the topic; an immigrants eligibility for any public funds, except contribution based ones for which they have paid the required NICs, before they have ILR, which takes at least 5 years to obtain, is virtually non existent.

Again, the Home Office document Public Funds.

As said previously, anyone, immigrant or indigenous, who is using false documents, a false identity or any other fraudulent means to claim and receive benefits to which they are not entitled is committing a criminal offence.

I again urge anyone here who knows of such criminality to report it here